The diversity of character building

[IndiraLightfoot]

I don't worry too much if the classes are relatively few. But I do worry about the diversity of feats and skills available to us when we make a character and then level them up.

 

Here's my thoughts on this:

For the love of god, no skill trees married with a lack of real abilities! Just look how much people love them in games like WoW, Diablo 3 or Kingdoms of Amalur. Loads of players are disappointed, because the choices are few and the valid choices are even more rare.

 

I really do think abilities of the sort: STR, INT, WIS, DEX, CON, CHA, really work. And I love to distribute points in them.

 

And I would like to have levels that do come with plenty of choices for new feats and skills that weave into choices you make with the abilities. Please, Obsidian, I'd much rather you go overtop with feats and skills, so the number of possible combinations are hard to keep count of. And dont worry too much about balance. I have no problem with someone finding some OP-combo that is a bit extreme and far-fetched, coz the game shouldn't be about number-crunching and effective characters, it is the adventure and the stories that count. Then again, I love that dreaming in front of juicy character creation screen, where I get overwhelmed by all the whimsical choices and twists and turns. It can even be a bit obscure as long as the diversity and variety is there.

 

All in all, you've got the system right when ten people make ten human fighters and they can be quite different from one another already at the outset. I think there are many people who long for a complexity and richness of builds that simple isn't there anymore in CRPGs. I want character choice-dependent "builds" (pretty bad word, but better than the dreaded "toons"), and not loot-n-gold dependent ones.

[rjshae]

If they do ability scores, I really hope they avoid the type of system that encourages extreme disparities in the scales (by providing increases at every level). It's okay for systems like Dungeon Siege 2 or Divine Divinity, but for a more detailed CRPG like DA2 or Ego Draconis I think that approach is hard to take seriously. (Although it did work okay in Oblivion because that system strongly encourages the development of multiple ability scores.)

[KennethTopp]

If they do ability scores, I really hope they avoid the type of system that encourages extreme disparities in the scales (by providing increases at every level). It's okay for systems like Dungeon Siege 2 or Divine Divinity, but for a more detailed CRPG like DA2 or Ego Draconis I think that approach is hard to take seriously. (Although it did work okay in Oblivion because that system strongly encourages the development of multiple ability scores.)

that and in Dragon Age 2 the ability scores were useless. there were no benefit to have a warrior with alot in Cunning or whatever. Str and Con. all Abilities scores should be desireable for all types of characters you create.

[Adhin]

I personally hope they go with a attribute system close to Fallout (though perhaps not the same stats), or 1st/2nd edition in that the attributes you pick are what you have from then on. It's more of a definition, and I'd be ok if that was changeable with a re-spec as long as that was limited and built into the world somehow (as they have mentioned). I thnk 3rd Edition actually gets a bit to much outa hand with how it is now, I'd of prefered to see stats becoming mildly more useful due to lvling then gaining more attribute points every 4 lvls.

 

In either case I'd look at DA2 as a prime example of not how to handle attributes and items. It just causes a lot of pointless progression. DAO did a bette rjob, but you still had a ton of attributes to spend and it kinda mucked things up. I kinda feel like less is more in stat growth but not in the actual number of stats. 5-6 is a good number of em, 4 or less and I start to wonder why they even exist.

 

-edit-

Oh and, also in relation to Fallout. How you could 'upgrade' your self, permanently in FO:NV was great. Also you could sacrifice a perk for the sake of increasing a stat which I kind liked as each point ultimately was worth it if you really needed that extra point. Either way I wouldn't mind some growth via levels just... not ever level, try to keep it from getting out of hand. When a higher lvl has twice the STR as a maxed STR lvl 1 you just gadda wonder wtf is going on. I mean that kinda dmg boost should be skill based via combat experience, not cause secret found a hulk potion and injected that **** into your veins.

Edited October 3, 2012 by Adhin

[Archmage Silver]

Don't worry, it won't be like Diablo 3. I'm pretty sure.

[HangedMan]

I'd love to see something like SPECIAL. I've always been fond of the SPECIAL system, to the point where I even made my own rip off of it for a homebrew, which ended up being called SCARED, as it was for a horror-style game.

 

 

For the love of god, no skill trees married with a lack of real abilities! Just look how much people love them in games like WoW, Diablo 3 or Kingdoms of Amalur. Loads of players are disappointed, because the choices are few and the valid choices are even more rare.

 

And I would like to have levels that do come with plenty of choices for new feats and skills that weave into choices you make with the abilities. Please, Obsidian, I'd much rather you go overtop with feats and skills, so the number of possible combinations are hard to keep count of. And dont worry too much about balance. I have no problem with someone finding some OP-combo that is a bit extreme and far-fetched, coz the game shouldn't be about number-crunching and effective characters, it is the adventure and the stories that count. Then again, I love that dreaming in front of juicy character creation screen, where I get overwhelmed by all the whimsical choices and twists and turns. It can even be a bit obscure as long as the diversity and variety is there.

Also, this. This right here echoes my own thoughts on the matter.

Edited October 3, 2012 by HangedMan

[Adhin]

Yeah I think SPECIAL actually would fit pretty well into that though I don't like mind being wrapped up entirely into Intelligence, one reason I like DnD attributes a little more. Though I guess in away perception could double as that since the word its self can mean abit past just what you physically see with your eyeballs. Either way it lacks a direct stat for what amounts to common sense. That's what Wisdom was for DnD and, as far as im concerned? that's a pretty big thing with people. Lotta folks lack it, others got it in some extreme amounts. SPECIAL has no way to track that, but can track... luck, of all things heh.

 

I like how special functions though, as I said, max limit, pick your thing in char creation and then thats 'you' for the game, which makes a lot more sense then constant growing stats. Which is the key part of it I liked most. Personally, I hope they come up with there own unique stats (that don't have to spell a word).

[Wombat]

Considering classes can be divided into feats/skills, I wonder if Obsidian is going for "classes" composed of skill/feat sets. If the players want more customization, they can build characters from scratch rather than selecting from given class templates (+ additional minor changes with a few feats/skills).

 

I don't know, class-based characters tend to feel odd in a believable word setting. I mean, a character may be from an area, a race, a faction and/or a social classes. However, what do "classes" mean in social context? Occupations? How should it be so fixated? In the world of PE, "classes" may be more than occupations.

[Adhin]

I doubt it, classes are more then just there skills/feats, that's the bulk of it, to be sure. However a Fighter, as an example in DnD, class is also your health progression, how well your basic training in martial combat is and all that good stuff. So, all things being equal, Warriors types have more hp and have better odds at landing hits in martial combat (melee/archery). Once you take that away it doesn't matter how much feats and skill **** you have, characters at a base are very 'samey' and don't fit that kind of tactical combat as well.

 

It's my preferense, at least, that classes come with a generic base shift in level growth outside of skill/feat/talent/perk/trait/thingymajiggers, which utlimately allow you to customize with in that general 'concept' of roles.

 

-edit-

As for how does it fit or what examples can you use in todays stuff, I always try to find parallels with the army. For instance squads demolition expert, or the medic. They have specific knowledge the other squadmates lack and are filling very specific, defined roles with in that. Yeah all of em went through basic training and know how to field strip, maintain, and shoot there rifles but beyond that people start to learn disciplines, become more focused. Look at XCOM for a fun example of a tactics, turn based game where squadies build up specializations.

 

Unlike are current times, however, and more so with the concept of magic you have very different.. positional roles. I mean today, everyone 'shoots' eachother so its like building a team full of archers and nothing else. So you got front line fighters (of a lot of types, 'warrior/fighters') you got ranged attackers, from varying sources. And each one has different... values one might attach to them to fill that role.

 

IF your trying to make some super realistic setting then armor should be a bigger factor then anything else but, i'd like to point out the game has such a high focus on character souls and that's what fuels powers/spells and the like that... the idea of superhuman feats (myth stuff) is far more explainable. So the idea your 'fighter' guy has more health, and might be able to regenerate health while say the rogue can't is far more easily explained.

 

-double-edit, cause I talk to much-

Another thing I forgot... dev on here also pointed out classes are also useful for quick grasp of what a companion is, with out having to dig deep into there feats and skills and needing tot ry them out and see how they handle. If you run into a guy in plate labled whos got the Warrior class you can be pretty confident he can handle front-line fighting one way or another. And considering mages in this game 'ware' plate, that becomes a more useful instant knowledge thing then in other RPG's. It may seem little bit its one of those things you start to wish was there once its gone and you have to spend extra time figuring out things you'd rather deal with later (like on a level up).

 

Ultimately its an ease of use thing, also, temporary companions you don't have any say in abilities and may not be able to see all of there stuff. Simply knowing they're a fighter or a rogue via there class lable can make it a lot less irritating to figure out how to use them effectively.

Edited October 3, 2012 by Adhin

[Wombat]

I doubt it, classes are more then just there skills/feats, that's the bulk of it, to be sure. However a Fighter, as an example in DnD, class is also your health progression, how well your basic training in martial combat is and all that good stuff. So, all things being equal, Warriors types have more hp and have better odds at landing hits in martial combat (melee/archery).

Any of them including HP bonus can be feats.

 

Once you take that away it doesn't matter how much feats and skill **** you have, characters at a base are very 'samey' and don't fit that kind of tactical combat as well.

This should depend largely on each build.

 

That said, for balancing, class system should be easier, indeed.

 

IF your trying to make some super realistic setting then armor should be a bigger factor then anything else but, i'd like to point out the game has such a high focus on character souls and that's what fuels powers/spells and the like that... the idea of superhuman feats (myth stuff) is far more explainable. So the idea your 'fighter' guy has more health, and might be able to regenerate health while say the rogue can't is far more easily explained.

Yeah, I presume "classes" might be related with soul system but not sure. Even in that case, I think such abilities can be expressed as feats, though.

[Greensleeve]

I think we sort of need both, considering we're going for a class system. I'd like a variety of classes, where choice actually do matter more than "Arcane/Divine/backstabber/non-caster." It was one of the greatest flaws of the last few editions of D&D, of the IE games, and most of the games produced cited in the Kickstarter hook. If you didn't play a caster, you had so little diversity in what you did in combat. You could change your position. You could change how much you power attack for. You could choose when to rage/activate some mode. Fallout at least allowed called shots.

 

Anyway, that's a different matter. What's important for this topic, I feel, is attributes where your choices matter, large amount of options to allow us to customise our characters, mechanically, even if they belong to the same class, be it through skills, feats, or class abilities.

 

Personally, I'm hoping for the viable and effective option of using both ranged and melee weapons.

[Adhin]

Ahh we know soul types isn't based on class. It's stated anyone can learn magic regardless of there soul. I kinda think Soul type, if we even get to pick that, will be closer to TES birth signs, or 3E background lvl 1 'feats' that kinda help define your character up to his staet at lvl 1 and beyond. Either case they've stated they're going classes and they don't want it to be to pigeon holed (like ADnD) but have customization with in that. So a Warrior maybe the easiest or generally best at what he does but you could technically make another class fill the same general role (like turning a mage into a front-line fighter). As long as they can pull that off I'll be a pretty happy camper. I like it when I can try some odd-ball build like a tank-mage or whatever. And it sounds like that's there goal with it.

 

Definitely curious what they do with attributes though, hope its 6-8 of em.. and.. yeah. I wanna be able to customize via as many avenues as possible.

Edited October 3, 2012 by Adhin

[Greensleeve]

Ahh we know soul types isn't based on class. It's stated anyone can learn magic regardless of there soul. I kinda think Soul type, if we even get to pick that, will be closer to TES birth signs, or 3E background lvl 1 'feats' that kinda help define your character up to his staet at lvl 1 and beyond. Either case they've stated they're going classes and they don't want it to be to pigeon holed (like ADnD) but have customization with in that. So a Warrior maybe the easiest or generally best at what he does but you could technically make another class fill the same general role (like turning a mage into a front-line fighter). As long as they can pull that off I'll be a pretty happy camper. I like it when I can try some odd-ball build like a tank-mage or whatever. And it sounds like that's there goal with it.

 

Definitely curious what they do with attributes though, hope its 6-8 of em.. and.. yeah. I wanna be able to customize via as many avenues as possible.

 

I agree. It is important to allow the classes to act outside of their immediately available role. To allow for a rogue that's actually someone that goes toe-to-toe with his opponents and wins. Wizards that tank. Fighters that are specialised more towards leading ones allies into battle than being a master of the sword himself (damn, that really needs to be around. The Leader type of fighter!) etc. etc.

[Wombat]

Ahh we know soul types isn't based on class. It's stated anyone can learn magic regardless of there soul.

Soul part is pretty much unknown but it's one of possiblities since class ablities can be quite "magical" even if they are not counted as spells. In any case, this is pretty much guessing area.

[Adhin]

Oh yeah, 100% agree with that. Best way to allow that is having a robust and flexible attribute system and feats to accomidate that. Also Wombat was saying that the 'hp stuff and whatnot' could be via feats, I kinda don't agree. Think about it, it already is. They already 'have' health feats and dmg/AB feats in DnD, they're useful for all classes but if that's your only option then all youc an do is spec 'like' a fighter, or 'like' a rogue or whatever. I guess the way I see it, classes are a multiplier in away. They give you different starting points just like a good attribute system does, but then you customize more beyond that (often using general stuff all classes get). So I can make a Fighter with low Con, or mid/high Con. I can do all that 'and' stack on HP feats. In fact one of my favorite characters is a Barbarian/Psion who stacks Con and every HP/DR feat I can get my grubby mitts on.

 

Now I did the same kind of thing in FO:NV, I went crazy Endurance and took as much DR/HP stuff as I could get my hands on but ultimately, while it definitely 'boosted' me up I wasn't to extremely off from any other build I had. Sure they could have done more with that as far as just make each one do more. Ultimately, anything like thats possible and a valid system but classes just always seem to work better for that, least to me they do. And,l yeah, definitely easier to balance around which ultimately gives more wiggle room 'for' that customization... and hey, maybe that's why its always seemed to work out better with class systems for me.. cause it's just easier to do.

 

-edit-

I may try and find where they said it but they literally stated people could learn to be mages with any kind of a soul. I recall reading that general wording. Didn't seem as vague to me but I've remembered stuff wrong before so.. yeah.

 

-double-edit-

"Through a variety of techniques (e.g. martial training, meditation, ritualistic evocation, mortification of the flesh), some individuals are able to draw upon the energy of their soul to accomplish extraordinary feats. These abilities range from the mundanely superhuman to the explosively magical. Having a strong soul seems to make this easier, but sometimes even people with fragmented souls are able to accomplish the extraordinary. The individual's body seems to act as a conduit and battery for this power, drawing in replenishment from seemingly omnipresent "fields" of unbound spiritual energy in the world around them."

 

That's the quickest thign I could find, on there front page, update #5. Talk directly about souls and whatnot. Certain souls make things easier but that's about it. Anyone can do it, even ones with weak fragmented souls (though that could make it extremely hard). Why i think souls will be like background feats/birth signs. Something that gives a universal stat shifts to aid in one thing or another but ultimately aren't tied to your race or class.

Edited October 3, 2012 by Adhin

[IndiraLightfoot]

This line in the last Kickstarter-update put a smile on my face: "[PE] will have a large number of optional specializations and alterations to give players a high level of flexibility in developing an individual character's particular style."

And given all the great input in this thread, we are quite a few who want to see that "large number" proliferate even further. Perhaps the descriptions of the weapons for some of the classes felt a bit too locked up in the traditional classes: I mean, I would love to see a non-tanking mage in no more than a tattered robe frantically pace around with a morning star in each hand. And guess what? He's actually seriously swift and deadly with them. And why? Because he's specialized himself in the absurd art of wielding a morning star in each hand (Perhaps the player put a lot of dex and wpn spec into that character at the expense of other things). With PE, Obsidian has the chance to build something that's free from some of the restraints of RPG-traditions. I adore D&D, but I would be happy if they dared step out of some of those givens too for the sake of character diversity and customization.

 

One of the stretch goals at 2.6 Mill sounds like great fun: the Adventure Hall, where you can design your entire party, eventually. In my manu playthrus of BG I soon left behind the classic companions and built my entire party, just like did when NWN2 got the Storm of Zehir-expansion. I just can't get enough of making motley adventure crews that take on games with great stories and choices.

[Ninjamestari]

Diversity and flexibility are the keywords here. Lots and lots of different feats, skills and other abilities..