Norway appoints Muslim woman Minister of Culture

[Hurlshort]

I really would like to hear the last time a Serb, Bulgarian, Romanian, Russian etc. participated in an act of terrorism in a european country.

 

We had a Chechnyan/Belgian terrorist here a while back - he blew himself up in a hotel by accident though.

 

But here at least most pickpocket thieves, beggers, organized robbers etc come from slavic or east european countries - but I see your point, it would be easier to integrate slavic people who are interested in coming here.

If you talk about the guy in Denmark (sounds like Denmark) he was a Muslim, though.

 

There is no question that Islam has a serious problem with extremism. But it is questionable whether intolerance towards all Muslims is really the way to deal with it. I'm pretty sure embracing the moderates and having healthy dialogues and education is the better course.

[Gorgon]

It's funny what it takes to make the news. Apparently it's newsworthy that a housing coop voted down the expenses for the Christmas tree with a Muslim majority. Clearly doom is at hand of the multicultural variety.

[Rosbjerg]

If you talk about the guy in Denmark (sounds like Denmark) he was a Muslim, though.

 

That wasn't relevant to what he asked - ie. whether a certain nationality was involved. As far as I've been able to find, about 2/3 of terrorist attacks in Denmark (and I'm assuming the world) were political in nature rather than religious, so in that regard it would've been more relevant to point out his ideological stand point.

 

In fact speaking of religion the most prevalent form of terrorism involving it is aimed at opposing branches within the same religion - Sunni and Shiite, Catholic and Protestant.. and yet terrorism is somehow linked to Islam due to one day and some rather pissed off Palestinians (and that's political not religious).. It's quite interesting actually, but a little sad. One generalization I'll make of muslims though, they are horrible at PR...

[Augusta Corvina]

As a norwegian.... I honestly don't have any issues with this. I'll judge her by what she does while she's in office and nothing else. If she does well, she'll get my kudos. If she does badly, I'll view her the same way I've ended up viewing most politicians.

[Drowsy Emperor]

If you talk about the guy in Denmark (sounds like Denmark) he was a Muslim, though.

 

That wasn't relevant to what he asked - ie. whether a certain nationality was involved. As far as I've been able to find, about 2/3 of terrorist attacks in Denmark (and I'm assuming the world) were political in nature rather than religious, so in that regard it would've been more relevant to point out his ideological stand point.

 

In fact speaking of religion the most prevalent form of terrorism involving it is aimed at opposing branches within the same religion - Sunni and Shiite, Catholic and Protestant.. and yet terrorism is somehow linked to Islam due to one day and some rather pissed off Palestinians (and that's political not religious).. It's quite interesting actually, but a little sad. One generalization I'll make of muslims though, they are horrible at PR...

 

Except chechnyans aren't slavic people. They're basically of the same sort of tribal muslims you get in afghanistan, Khazakstan etc, caucasian asians with a fully muslim identity.

If a white orthodox christian russian blew himself up your point would stand - as it is, it just points back to muslims (in your case to a member of a muslim minority from russia).

Edited November 21, 2012 by Drowsy Emperor

[Gorgon]

Surely radical Islamism and it's terror component are both religious and political in nature. One might prefer if the these were separate entities, but they rarely are. In some cases they are more or less inseparable.

 

In fact one might call it a very specific kind of worship associated with blowing things up.

[Rosbjerg]

Surely radical Islamism and it's terror component are both religious and political in nature.

 

The guy blowing himself up surely feels that way, but I honestly think it's more political for the planners and leaders. It's an interesting development, but probably for another thread, how and why certain muslims have resorted to terrorism, but I think it might have something to do with the PLF and their actions in the 70's.. I think it's a 40/60 split on the blame (40 on us) for treating the middle east like idiots unless they use violence..

[Gorgon]

Agreed. Unfortunately the legacy of the first wave of Islamic terrorism in the 70s and 80s was that it worked great for getting attention to your cause.

[alanschu]

Wasn't Breivik Christian?

[BruceVC]

Surely radical Islamism and it's terror component are both religious and political in nature. One might prefer if the these were separate entities, but they rarely are. In some cases they are more or less inseparable.

 

In fact one might call it a very specific kind of worship associated with blowing things up.

 

Yes the roots of Islamic Fundamentalism are generally found in political causes. But they also follow an orthodox view of Islam

Wasn't Breivik Christian?

 

, yes he was. It does show us that religious extremism/terrorism is not just something we see in Islam. But there are many examples of this. Look at the IRA, they were both a religious and political terrorist organization Also the Tamil Tigers of Sri Lanka were a Hindu terrorist organization But the reality is we see the greatest proliferation of terrorism lately in certain Islamic groups

[Agelastos]

That's it. I'm moving to Bhutan.

Oh, wait...

[Drowsy Emperor]

Wasn't Breivik Christian?

 

What of it? His act was typical of political terrorism, at least that's how he presented it. There was no religious component.

 

Besides he's one sole exception of a native European terrorist in the last couple of decades (since the Rote Armee Fraktion and other revolutionary leftists in the eighties). The example can't possibly be used to prove a trend, because there's nothing else to back it up.

 

With Islamic terror you can point out a ton of examples so a definite trend is obvious.

 

 

To those who are saying that education will change the issue. That does not stand, some of the muslim terrorists in Europe were born and raised in european countries, went to european schools - grew up in a completely different society from their parents yet they decided that those societies weren't worth living in (but are worth fighting against).

Edited November 22, 2012 by Drowsy Emperor

[Nepenthe]

Besides he's one sole exception of a native European terrorist in the last couple of decades (since the Rote Armee Fraktion and other revolutionary leftists in the eighties). The example can't possibly be used to prove a trend, because there's nothing else to back it up.

The sole exception, if you exclude ETA, 17N, IRA etc...

 

(P)IRA was the only one to have religious connotations, loyalists as well, I'll give you that.

Edited November 22, 2012 by Nepenthe

[Gorth]

Besides he's one sole exception of a native European terrorist in the last couple of decades (since the Rote Armee Fraktion and other revolutionary leftists in the eighties). The example can't possibly be used to prove a trend, because there's nothing else to back it up.

The sole exception, if you exclude ETA, 17N, IRA etc...

 

(P)IRA was the only one to have religious connotations, loyalists as well, I'll give you that.

...and yet there was a significant nationalist component to it (The Irish conflict) as well, possibly way overshadowing any religious significance (the occupied versus the occupier). Italys Brigate Rosse, Baader-Meinhof/RAF... enough murders and killings to make upstarts envious of the infamy and notoriety of the homegrown terrorists in Europe.

[obyknven]

Yes the roots of Islamic Fundamentalism are generally found in political causes. But they also follow an orthodox view of Islam

You known noting about Islam. Modern Jihaddist movement is USA/Israel puppets. Orthodox Islam (Sunni, Shia and Sufi) considered them as heretics and fight against them.

 

For example this guy are Muslim. He is a member of the Russian anti-terror unit.

 

According to former US Justice Department Nazi researcher John Loftus, “during the 1950s, the CIA evacuated the Nazis of the Muslim Brotherhood to Saudi Arabia. Now, when they arrived in Saudi Arabia, some of the leading lights of the Muslim Brotherhood, like Dr Abdullah Azzam, became the teachers in the madrassas, the religious schools. And there they combined the doctrines of Nazism with this weird Islamic cult, Wahhabism.” [15]

 

“Everyone thinks that Islam is this fanatical religion, but it is not,” Loftus continues. “They think that Islam–the Saudi version of Islam–is typical, but it’s not. The Wahhabi cult has been condemned as a heresy more than 60 times by the Muslim nations. But when the Saudis got wealthy, they bought a lot of silence. This is a very harsh cult. Wahhabism was only practised by the Taliban and in Saudi Arabia–that’s how extreme it is. It really has nothing to do with Islam. Islam is a very peaceful and tolerant religion. It always had good relationships with the Jews for the first thousand years of its existence.”

 

http://www.globalres...eration/5304451

[BruceVC]

Yes the roots of Islamic Fundamentalism are generally found in political causes. But they also follow an orthodox view of Islam

You known noting about Islam. Modern Jihaddist movement is USA/Israel puppets. Orthodox Islam (Sunni, Shia and Sufi) considered them as heretics and fight against them.

 

For example this guy are Muslim. He is a member of the Russian anti-terror unit.

 

According to former US Justice Department Nazi researcher John Loftus, “during the 1950s, the CIA evacuated the Nazis of the Muslim Brotherhood to Saudi Arabia. Now, when they arrived in Saudi Arabia, some of the leading lights of the Muslim Brotherhood, like Dr Abdullah Azzam, became the teachers in the madrassas, the religious schools. And there they combined the doctrines of Nazism with this weird Islamic cult, Wahhabism.” [15]

 

“Everyone thinks that Islam is this fanatical religion, but it is not,” Loftus continues. “They think that Islam–the Saudi version of Islam–is typical, but it’s not. The Wahhabi cult has been condemned as a heresy more than 60 times by the Muslim nations. But when the Saudis got wealthy, they bought a lot of silence. This is a very harsh cult. Wahhabism was only practised by the Taliban and in Saudi Arabia–that’s how extreme it is. It really has nothing to do with Islam. Islam is a very peaceful and tolerant religion. It always had good relationships with the Jews for the first thousand years of its existence.”

 

http://www.globalres...eration/5304451

 

Are you suggesting that the likes of Al-Qaeda were created by the USA and Israel for some political purpose to benefit there own countries agenda's?

 

Also I am not sure what the relevance of that photo has to do with my point about Islamic Fundamentalism. Almost all Muslim countries are conservative but they aren't fundamentalist. There is a huge difference. And only a small percentage of Muslims follow the ideological views of Al-Qaeda, I travel to the Middle East for work regularly and I am well aware of that

Edited November 22, 2012 by BruceVC

[alanschu]

EDIT:

 

Nevermind. Time would be better spent finishing the device that lets me punch people through monitors.

Edited November 22, 2012 by alanschu

[Nepenthe]

Besides he's one sole exception of a native European terrorist in the last couple of decades (since the Rote Armee Fraktion and other revolutionary leftists in the eighties). The example can't possibly be used to prove a trend, because there's nothing else to back it up.

The sole exception, if you exclude ETA, 17N, IRA etc...

 

(P)IRA was the only one to have religious connotations, loyalists as well, I'll give you that.

...and yet there was a significant nationalist component to it (The Irish conflict) as well, possibly way overshadowing any religious significance (the occupied versus the occupier). Italys Brigate Rosse, Baader-Meinhof/RAF... enough murders and killings to make upstarts envious of the infamy and notoriety of the homegrown terrorists in Europe.

Yeah, I probably should have inserted "any" there. Personally consider the difference of the type of ideology that motivates terrorists to be of secondary importance, in general. A great deal of islamic terror is related to the Israeli situation, so there is a nationalist component there as well.

 

The groups I picked were the ones that have been active most recently that I could think off the top of my head, certainly 90s and up to the 2000s as well, and wasn't meant to be an exhaustive list. That would take a while.

[Gorth]

The groups I picked were the ones that have been active most recently that I could think off the top of my head, certainly 90s and up to the 2000s as well, and wasn't meant to be an exhaustive list. That would take a while.

 

I don't really think, that there are that many more than those listed. Sort of scary that I'm old enough to remember them being 'news' rather than 'old history'

 

[HoonDing]

Roman Catholic Church was the biggest religious terrorist group until at least the French Revolution. The Muslims will have a lot of catching up to do to beat them.

 

[Nepenthe]

The groups I picked were the ones that have been active most recently that I could think off the top of my head, certainly 90s and up to the 2000s as well, and wasn't meant to be an exhaustive list. That would take a while.

 

I don't really think, that there are that many more than those listed. Sort of scary that I'm old enough to remember them being 'news' rather than 'old history'

I'm pretty sure there are small individual cells that don't get a lot of attention outside their respective countries. The Red Brigades had that brief rebirth some years ago etc. Anyway, that's still an ass-ton of people and certainly enough to invalidate any point that there hasn't been a white European (that's what we're talking about here, right?) terrorist since the 80s apart from old Andy. Who looks just like the president of the Finnish conservative party's youth wing, funny.

[BruceVC]

Roman Catholic Church was the biggest religious terrorist group until at least the French Revolution. The Muslims will have a lot of catching up to do to beat them.

 

 

Sure and we use burn people who said the world wasn't flat. But I prefer to debate in present time and who impacts the security of the global world now.

[Drowsy Emperor]

Besides he's one sole exception of a native European terrorist in the last couple of decades (since the Rote Armee Fraktion and other revolutionary leftists in the eighties). The example can't possibly be used to prove a trend, because there's nothing else to back it up.

The sole exception, if you exclude ETA, 17N, IRA etc...

 

(P)IRA was the only one to have religious connotations, loyalists as well, I'll give you that.

 

Yeah, you're right. Though the point I was trying to make was that Islamic terror is a more credible threat given its scope of operation and widespread support - probably as much as or more of a threat than leftist terrorists were when the USSR was still an ideological force.

 

Those groups you named are (or were) a problem, but, honestly, a very localized one (1-2 countries), with no ambition to go beyond that.

While I'm sure that they are plenty of right wing cells and groups with similar mentality as Breivik, I just don't see them uniting and mass murdering european citizens. Breivik act was extreme, even for them.

Edited November 22, 2012 by Drowsy Emperor

[alanschu]

But I prefer to debate in present time and who impacts the security of the global world now.

 

Context is important, however. Unless people feel that Islam is just fundamentally not capable of coexisting with others... a perspective that was once ascribed to Christianity. In fact, the intolerance of Christians is in large part why they were persecuted by the Romans!

 

Fun times and all.

Edited November 22, 2012 by alanschu

[BruceVC]

But I prefer to debate in present time and who impacts the security of the global world now.

 

Context is important, however. Unless people feel that Islam is just fundamentally not capable of coexisting with others... a perspective that was once ascribed to Christianity. In fact, the intolerance of Christians is in large part why they were persecuted by the Romans!

 

Fun times and all.

 

I don't think anyone is even remotely suggesting we can't coexist with Muslims, the debate for me should rather be focused on the inimical threat around Islamic fundamentalism that threatens both Western and moderate Muslim countries. And most of the Middle East countries are allies of the West and also oppose Islamic extremism