[merged] Vancian Magic System and cooldowns

[Reddie]

Knock and its old friends spider climb and invisibility are part of a classic family of spells that made rogue and thief players say, "Hey, why do I exist?" I don't believe their inclusion in pre-4E editions of D&D and AD&D was a great thing. That sort of spell design is good if you're making a game specifically about how awesomely powerful wizards are (e.g. Ars Magica), but I don't think it's good in a class-based system where the classes are supposed to have different strengths and weaknesses.

 

I think these spells you mention were not meant to replace rogue skills but to augument them. If a mage had enough of them remembered to fit the role of rogue, he would actually suck in a role of mage - and he wouldn't be so great a rogue too, cause in combat he would be weak as always.

 

So I wouldn't dismiss good ol' knock on the spot

[Tuco Benedicto]

Whatever verbage we feel like using, a mage character should be useful every "round". Firing off a spell and then being forced to plink away with your 1D4 sling while you wait for something to recharge is the epitome of suck.

I can't say I agree at all. That's exactly what makes Dragon Age so painful to manage with the AI completely off compared to Baldur's gate 2.

In Dragon Age you are constantly cycling through characters that have very short cooldowns, while in Baldur's Gate you usually set a generic target for each of your men and *then* when it's actually useful to do so, you pick some special ability/spell/item to use.

[Hypevosa]

Fireballing a group of kobolds and having every last one drop dead is one of the most satisfying things ever. This is what magic users live for, just like the fighters who critical and have enemies explode on the screen. It would be sad if spells could be used so often that their damage wasn't high enough to accomplish these things anymore.

 

Again, I think there's a nice middleground with the vancian casting system that can be met where you allow casters to study during the downtime between combats and slowly regain spells, starting with the earlier level spells that take shorter to rememorize, and taking much longer with the higher level spells. This way rest isn't forced, but it has a place still if a magic user had to, for some reason, use most of the spells in his arsenal recently. No need to severely weaken current basic spells, but no need to rest so often either, as the useful low level spells that allow a mage to still help in a fight will return in due time.

Edited October 1, 2012 by Hypevosa

[Reddie]

That's just you playing poorly and/or exploiting the system.

 

How does making decisions without proper information handed by the game equals playing poorly and/or expoliting the system?

[Gfted1]

Whatever verbage we feel like using, a mage character should be useful every "round". Firing off a spell and then being forced to plink away with your 1D4 sling while you wait for something to recharge is the epitome of suck.

I completely disagree. Having the magic system designed so that there's always something to do seems like busywork.

 

If my mage can wait for all of the enemies to be herded into a group and then kill them all with a single spell, that's way cooler than constant casting of smaller spells.

 

Fighters do something every round. Mages don't. Partly because that sort of design would dramatically limit magical power. There aren't going to be any spells that kill everyone if the mage is expected to be casting constantly.

 

Different strokes for different folks. If your idea of fun gameplay is to stand there doing nothing for several rounds until all conditions line up and then execute one action before standing there again doing nothing until those conditions line up again, rock on. To me, that would suck.

[Kissamies]

Something like the "Unlimited Mana" alternate system for GURPS might be good:

http://www222.pair.com/sjohn/blueroom/unlimited-mana.htm

 

Basically you got your power tally, which is increased by casting spells and decreases over time. If your tally goes above a threshold value, you start rolling on the calamity table, taking pluses on the roll depending on how much you have crossed the threshold by. This being soul based magic, the calamities would have to do something about exhausting your soul or causing permanent damage to it on the higher results.

[Tuco Benedicto]

That's just you playing poorly and/or exploiting the system.

 

How does making decisions without proper information handed by the game equals playing poorly and/or expoliting the system?

"Making a decision without proper information" is exactly the big flaw in the memorization system that I mentioned and addressed in my first reply in this thread.

It prevent's flexibility and creativity with the "weirdest" and most "situational" spells.

 

That said, I still find the idea of running back and forth to recharge your spell arsenal a cheap way to exploit the system.

In all these IE games I always forced myself to enter an area and not rest until I was done with it. Even on the biggest dungeons I never rested more than once for every floor.

Edited October 1, 2012 by Tuco Benedicto

[Valorian]

I just want to add this to the discussion..

 

I'd love a system where the resource for casting spells doesn't recharge on its own (be it mana or soul points or a spellbook). But only through resting (and rare mana potions). Why?

 

Because it lets me challenge myself. I can decide I'll replenish my spells/mana only 15 times during the game. If I can obliterate every single encounter with powerful spells it doesn't feel all that challenging. I like the strategy element of saving the spells only for the toughest fights.

 

This is the aspect of resting systems that I value the most.

 

And people are being silly about the cooldowns. Every magic system has cooldowns. Casting time is a cooldown as well. Othewise you'd be able to cast spells every second and that would be a nightmare for anyone standing on the receiving end.

[Wirdjos]

Whatever verbage we feel like using, a mage character should be useful every "round". Firing off a spell and then being forced to plink away with your 1D4 sling while you wait for something to recharge is the epitome of suck.

I can't say I agree at all. That's exactly what makes Dragon Age so painful to manage with the AI completely off compared to Baldur's gate 2.

In Dragon Age you are constantly cycling through characters that have very short cooldowns, while in Baldur's Gate you usually set a generic target for each of your men and *then* when it's actually useful to do so, you pick some special ability/spell/item to use.

 

You actually just sold me on a more Vancian system. The way DA:O cooldowns were set up made the game fun to play as a pause and play action game, but annoying to play as a slow strategic game. I believe it is the latter here that P:E is looking to emulate. The biggest problem I had with the Vancian system, however, was that my mage was likely to not even be used in a large amount of encounters as I just didn't want to waste spells worrying about what was around the next corner. That made my mages into glorified sling swingers which seems like spitting in their extremely powerful faces. So I'm left liking the hybrid that's been discussed in this thread best, the one involving low level spells sort of freeing themselves from the Vancian and becoming more easily castable.

[Reddie]

"Making a decision without proper information" is exactly the big flaw in the memorization system that I mentioned and addressed in my first reply in this thread.

It prevent's flexibility and creativity with the "weirdest" and most "situational" spells.

 

That said, I still find the idea of running back and forth to recharge your spell arsenal a cheap way to exploit the system.

In all these IE games I always forced myself to enter an area and not rest until I was done with it. Even on the biggest dungeons I never rested more than once for every floor.

 

Same for me, but I still don't see how trying to overcome this flaw is "playing poorly". In any way, I find it less exploiting than reloading the save, cause player actually tries to handle the situation using available game mechanics, rather than re-enter territory with knowledge of what's ahead and having proper spellset. Personally, I never had patience to do all this resting and resorted to reloading all the time

[Tuco Benedicto]

The biggest problem I had with the Vancian system, however, was that my mage was likely to not even be used in a large amount of encounters as I just didn't want to waste spells worrying about what was around the next corner.

Well, that was the fun part for me.

When I tried to restrain myself as much as possible but at some point I was like "Damn, now I *really* need to use the big cannons".

[AlexAB]

 

 

Different strokes for different folks. If your idea of fun gameplay is to stand there doing nothing for several rounds until all conditions line up and then execute one action before standing there again doing nothing until those conditions line up again, rock on. To me, that would suck.

 

Just a note, going back to that combat as way thing. In this way of viewing combat, having a mage who doesn't do anything most of the combat is quite ok because the real battle was decided mostly beforehand. Preparation is where the fun is, no in execution. Of course this isn't true all the time, but it is mostly the case. It is more important to have the ability to, in one round, really change how things are going, than be able to continuously change things a bit each round. Because not doing anything most of the time is boring for anyone, though, these games do better with quick battles, (or at least, quick rounds) than with extended ones where you have to make dozens of decisions every turn, or round, or segment of time.

[Wirdjos]

The biggest problem I had with the Vancian system, however, was that my mage was likely to not even be used in a large amount of encounters as I just didn't want to waste spells worrying about what was around the next corner.

Well, that was the fun part for me.

When I tried to restrain myself as much as possible but at some point I was like "Damn, now I *really* need to use the big cannons".

 

I completely understand where you're coming from. A lot of fun I get from a strategic combat system also comes from antagonizing over when to use that 'big cannon' and the satisfaction after finally using it. I think I would just prefer a little more leeway than say BG1 gave me in when I could cast anything and a couple fewer trash mobs that I knew didn't need magical intervention from the start.

[Nakia]

In the old IE games rogues weren't DPS kings. You had to be invisible to backstab, and once you got off a single backstab, that was it. You became visible and your subsequent hits were normal weapon damage, and far less than what a standard Fighter could do per round. If you wanted to backstab again, you had to re-stealth, which was nearly impossible to do without magical assistance, and literally impossible to do in the same round as your previous backstab.

 

In IE games rogues were so unnecessary that I almost never had one. Locked doors? Knock spell. Traps? Run through them and heal the damage. That's how I played all my D&D cRPGs. Magic really made rogues absolutely unnecessary.

 

That's because you didn't have Nakia Nightshadow. You was fantastic. Could sneak under things normal folk couldn't. Had high charisma so was good for talking. Scouted. Lead enemies into ambushes. Did a lot more than locks and traps. Never became a pickpocket either. She was and is my favorite character ever. Played forum PbP RPGs with her. You just never had the right build.

[Gfted1]

The examples you guys give are to me exactly why a Vancian system works. You have a limited amount of times you cast cast something before they are gone (until you replenish them, however that may be). Sure you can cast your 10th level Spell of Doom on that pile of worms but that would be stupid and you will be without that spell until replenishing.

[Tuco Benedicto]

The examples you guys give are to me exactly why a Vancian system works. You have a limited amount of times you cast cast something before they are gone (until you replenish them, however that may be). Sure you can cast your 10th level Spell of Doom on that pile of worms but that would be stupid and you will be without that spell until replenishing.

And that's exactly the point of this kind of system, in fact.

[Vampero]

I'm just glad this won't be a D&D game ! It is a new IP...Thank the cows ! I hate dice rolling in a dungeon crawler.

[Tuco Benedicto]

I'm just glad this won't be a D&D game ! It is a new IP...Thank the cows ! I hate dice rolling in a dungeon crawler.

i don't think they ruled "dice rolling" (which is a fancy way to name random variables) out of the game at any point, honestly.

Edited October 1, 2012 by Tuco Benedicto

[Vampero]

I'm just glad this won't be a D&D game ! It is a new IP...Thank the cows ! I hate dice rolling in a dungeon crawler.

i don't think they ruled "dice rolling" (which is a fancy way to name random variables) out of the game, honestly.

 

I hope that won't happen because I won't play the game.

[Tuco Benedicto]

I hope that won't happen because I won't play the game.

Well, good riddance.

[Hypevosa]

I'm just glad this won't be a D&D game ! It is a new IP...Thank the cows ! I hate dice rolling in a dungeon crawler.

i don't think they ruled "dice rolling" (which is a fancy way to name random variables) out of the game, honestly.

 

I hope that won't happen because I won't play the game.

 

So the fact that they use numbers that are representative of dice thrown on tables, rather than arbitrarily chosen ranges of numbers will make you not play the game?

 

if a player has 10 hp in D&D and takes 1d4 damage from an attack, is it not basically the same as them possibly taking 10-40 damage?

 

or am I missing what you mean by dice rolls?

[Tuco Benedicto]

So the fact that they use numbers that are representative of dice thrown on tables, rather than arbitrarily chosen ranges of numbers will make you not play the game?

 

if a player has 10 hp in D&D and takes 1d4 damage from an attack, is it not basically the same as them possibly taking 10-40 damage?

 

or am I missing what you mean by dice rolls?

I think he simply means the he doesn't want any random value. So just spells with a fixed amount of damage, no resist/miss/parry on chance, and so on.

That, or he simply doesn't understand what "dice rolls" stand for in a game like this.

[Gfted1]

The examples you guys give are to me exactly why a Vancian system works. You have a limited amount of times you cast cast something before they are gone (until you replenish them, however that may be). Sure you can cast your 10th level Spell of Doom on that pile of worms but that would be stupid and you will be without that spell until replenishing.

And that's exactly the point of this kind of system, in fact.

 

Right, but its not all or nothing. You could instead cast your 5th level Spell of Minor Doom or your first level Magic Projectile of Doom. Standing around waiting until everything is in a nice little pile before dropping your nuke would be awful for anyone playing a caster as their main.

[Umberlin]

On that note, I'd totally play a cRPG that literally was just a 3D representation of a PnP tabletop game as a tool for DMs to better visually represent their campaigns and connect their players across a larger area. Especially if it used a physics engine to let me throw dice, and move my little character several tiles. No really, if it were literally just the tabletop game on the PC I'd be all over that. Actually you can do that now, minus the 3D (and the physics engine for letting you throw dice one day . . . one day), I've played a few games like that with a group while . . . people watched. No literally there was a chat room and people were just watching us play and commenting . . .

 

It was a so weird.

 

An example of one such a virtual tabletop: http://rpgvirtualtabletop.com/images/TTopRPG.jpg . . . well, it's a start.

Edited October 1, 2012 by Umberlin

[cuteLittleRabbit]

My opinion: I really like a Shadowrun-like fatigue system:

* You can choose what to cast when you want to cast it (you don't need to 'prepare for the next battle/area/dungeon/combat situation')

* With every spell cast, there is a chance that you get stun and/or pysical damage, based on how good a caster you are (even the best casters cannot cast forever)

* By selecting spells when levelling up/spending karma, you don't limit your caster, but by selecting skills/creating (personalised) caster focii to match your preferred spells you can focus your caster's strengths (or you can choose to not focus, and have a huge spell repertoire instead)

* The easiest way to stop a caster is to hit him fast, and hard (either disabling him/her before he/she is aware of your presence, or by trying to interrupt the "ritual")

 

I, personally, don't see any strategy in a 'prepare spells' mechanic. For me, it has always been more of an annoyance than a blessing.

Though I do like the huge variety of spells and spell effects that e.g. Baldur's Gate 2 offered, even if I didn't like the fact that the magic system discouraged me from using them all.