The Value of Gold

[SanguineAngel]

So, I've seen some topics on Vendor trash, inventory management and the weight of gold. It's sparked an old niggle with me: the value of money in RPGs

 

One thing that's always bugged me in almost any RPG is that you're either a pauper or a prince. There's no middle ground. And your stash of gold rarely reflect the contextual fiction.

 

Peasants beg for a few coppers but the cheapest item costs a few gold. The cheapest items cost a few gold but you don't need them. Weapons are available to buy but you will invariably find any item purchased pales in comparison to something you pick up off your fallen foes, at least until late game. Potions are available, but virtually pointless, especially when you pick those up of enemies too, or you even have regenerating health.

 

Soon, you've stockpiled enough money to purchase the entire kingdom but you're still doing odd jobs for 10 gold pieces. by the time you've reached the point where you want to buy that 10,000 gp sword of awesomeness, you've got 2,000,000 and it doesn't make a dent.

 

I'm sure this all sounds familiar to a lot of us.

 

So, what might be some solutions?

 

For myself, I have often thought that narrative events might prove enjoyable & worthwhile money sinks. Alternative solutions to quests such as paying off ransoms or whole new quests where you are required to spend some of that hard earned cash. Improvements to your player home/stronghold. Perhaps even being held up on the road. These need only start being triggered or become available when you have certain amount of money in the first place. But could effectively keep your level of wealth at a reasonable level.

[Nakia]

BG games had different coins and when you collected money you could turn it into special gems. I have no idea how hard that is to do but the idea of everything being tied to gold I find silly. Call it something else at least. I either end up with little money or richer than Midas. Currency should have some meaning.

[Thraxen]

Definitely needs to be something to spend money on other than equipment. Otherwise, by the end of the game there's either way too much inflation and you can't afford anything without a huge grind, or you've saved up so much that spending it is a complete non-issue, like you said. Maybe there could be a way to invest in the land surrounding your home (if we get one), renting out the land for people to work on. Possibly unlocking some new quests in the process.

 

We could even fund some kind of expedition to ancient ruins, giving a new area to explore with the chance of some great loot, but it'd cost a bomb and you'd need to prepare for it pretty well (hiring guards, researchers etc.)

 

But basically, make sure that there's a reason to spend money that's not just an extra +3% critical chance on a slightly better belt, make the reward of saving the money be more gameplay, not just easier gameplay.

[metiman]

So, I've seen some topics on Vendor trash, inventory management and the weight of gold. It's sparked an old niggle with me: the value of money in RPGs

 

One thing that's always bugged me in almost any RPG is that you're either a pauper or a prince. There's no middle ground. And your stash of gold rarely reflect the contextual fiction.

 

Peasants beg for a few coppers but the cheapest item costs a few gold. The cheapest items cost a few gold but you don't need them. Weapons are available to buy but you will invariably find any item purchased pales in comparison to something you pick up off your fallen foes, at least until late game. Potions are available, but virtually pointless, especially when you pick those up of enemies too, or you even have regenerating health.

 

Soon, you've stockpiled enough money to purchase the entire kingdom but you're still doing odd jobs for 10 gold pieces. by the time you've reached the point where you want to buy that 10,000 gp sword of awesomeness, you've got 2,000,000 and it doesn't make a dent.

 

I'm sure this all sounds familiar to a lot of us.

 

So, what might be some solutions?

 

For myself, I have often thought that narrative events might prove enjoyable & worthwhile money sinks. Alternative solutions to quests such as paying off ransoms or whole new quests where you are required to spend some of that hard earned cash. Improvements to your player home/stronghold. Perhaps even being held up on the road. These need only start being triggered or become available when you have certain amount of money in the first place. But could effectively keep your level of wealth at a reasonable level.

 

I don't recall experiencing this problem. Can you give an example of a game which has this problem? As far as fixing it it's simple: make acquiring gold extremely difficult so that money in the world is scarce. Force players to have an extremely high barter skill to get anything at all for their fancy weapons and only offer them small rewards for missions. Surely this must be one of the easiest game mechanics to do well. The problem is players who want everything to be easy and need to have a +5 magical sword at the beginning of the game. I don't think this project will have problems like this because the devs don't have to pander. They can simply make the best game they know how to make and if some console players find the game too hard well that's just too bad. You don't even really have to have stores in the game at all. Ultima Underworld didn't have stores and it was great fun.

[MinotaurWarrior]

There are two things I'd really like to see here: different coins (copper / silver / gold, with prices based on actuall historic prices for goods), and non-combat moneysinks, ala Crossroads Keep. A military base, quests that have options involving large coin expenditures, supporting factions, et cetera.

[SanguineAngel]

I don't recall experiencing this problem. Can you give an example of a game which has this problem? As far as fixing it it's simple: make acquiring gold extremely difficult so that money in the world is scarce. Force players to have an extremely high barter skill to get anything at all for their fancy weapons and only offer them small rewards for missions. Surely this must be one of the easiest game mechanics to do well. The problem is players who want everything to be easy and need to have a +5 magical sword at the beginning of the game. I don't think this project will have problems like this because the devs don't have to pander. They can simply make the best game they know how to make and if some console players find the game too hard well that's just too bad. You don't even really have to have stores in the game at all. Ultima Underworld didn't have stores and it was great fun.

 

Well, some well known games that have had this problem in my own experience: Baldur's Gate 1 & 2, Icewind Dale 1 & 2, Neverwinter Nights 1 & 2, Oblivion, Skyrim, Fallout 1, Fallout 3 (not sure about fallout 2 - I seem to recall it wasn't such an issue?), Mass Effect 1 & 2 (3 had some interesting ideas in this regard).

 

You could make money scarce - and I believe that it a part of the solution - and you could make high barter skills necessary but then the issue you would face is that not all players would focus on barter skills and so would need more money. But money is scarce so you would need to make purchasable items not necessary so that players who don't barter aren't at an unfair disadvantage. But if purchasable items aren't important, then why buy them? Then you've got the problem of what to spend your money on - so you end up stockpiling it and hey presto, rich as sin again.

 

I think you're going to have money, you need viable money sinks. As I understand it, that was sort of the idea behind health and mana potions in the first place but it was crude, not very effective but never really got developed.

 

@Thraxen, you and I appear to be in accord I think. Rewards for investing money should not be more money - just compounding the issue. It should not be better equipment either, making fights easier as, if fights aren't balanced for that then fighting is too easy and boring, so you are punished not rewarded, or if fights ARE balanced, then if you don't have the funds then you are stuck.

 

It should be something tangible for the player. So, new content seems like a good alternative. I like your expedition idea. Similar to Dragon Age's dwarf plot but in a far more involving and practical way. The more things you invest in could alter the course of the expedition

Edited September 18, 2012 by SanguineAngel

[Thraxen]

I don't recall experiencing this problem. Can you give an example of a game which has this problem? As far as fixing it it's simple: make acquiring gold extremely difficult so that money in the world is scarce. Force players to have an extremely high barter skill to get anything at all for their fancy weapons and only offer them small rewards for missions. Surely this must be one of the easiest game mechanics to do well. The problem is players who want everything to be easy and need to have a +5 magical sword at the beginning of the game. I don't think this project will have problems like this because the devs don't have to pander. They can simply make the best game they know how to make and if some console players find the game too hard well that's just too bad. You don't even really have to have stores in the game at all. Ultima Underworld didn't have stores and it was great fun.

 

Well, some well known games that have had this problem in my own experience: Baldur's Gate 1 & 2, Icewind Dale 1 & 2, Neverwinter Nights 1 & 2, Oblivion, Skyrim, Fallout 1, Fallout 3 (not sure about fallout 2 - I seem to recall it wasn't such an issue?), Mass Effect 1 & 2 (3 had some interesting ideas in this regard).

 

You could make money scarce - and I believe that it a part of the solution - and you could make high barter skills necessary but then the issue you would face is that not all players would focus on barter skills and so would need more money. But money is scarce so you would need to make purchasable items not necessary so that players who don't barter aren't at an unfair disadvantage. But if purchasable items aren't important, then why buy them? Then you've got the problem of what to spend your money on - so you end up stockpiling it and hey presto, rich as sin again.

 

I think you're going to have money, you need viable money sinks. As I understand it, that was sort of the idea behind health and mana potions in the first place but it was crude, not very effective but never really got developed.

 

@Thraxen, you and I appear to be in accord I think. Rewards for investing money should not be more money - just compounding the issue. It should not be better equipment either, making fights easier as, if fights aren't balanced for that then fighting is too easy and boring, so you are punished not rewarded, or if fights ARE balanced, then if you don't have the funds then you are stuck.

 

It should be something tangible for the player. So, new content seems like a good alternative. I like your expedition idea. Similar to Dragon Age's dwarf plot but in a far more involving and practical way. The more things you invest in could alter the course of the expedition

 

Exactly. I suppose you could liken it to a choose your own adventure type scenario, if you don't have the right equipment or personnel, you'll have to try and figure out another to get past and obstacle, likely costing you some items or guards along the way. If you run out of guards and then you get attacked by bandits or raiders, you'll probably have to abandoned the expedition and escape instead of fighting against impossible odds. Of course, more equipment and men would cost more, so it could be a real dilemma: try and expedition with low funds to try and get some good stuff earlier on, with a higher risk, or wait until you're able to prepare better and therefore more likely to succeed.

[Infinitron]

I've already said this on the Wasteland 2 forums. Probably the best way to prevent the player from acquiring massive amounts of gold is to to completely remove the option to sell items. The only gold you have is the gold you find.

 

But this would be a controversial design decision.

Edited September 18, 2012 by Infinitron

[metiman]

Controversial, but interesting. Why not just have an adjustable gold level? Or make it part of the difficulty slider? On the highest difficulty levels gold is scarce and maybe there are no merchants at all. It's strange that this has never really been a problem for me. Not in IWD or Fallout 1/2 or even BG2 or FONV. I haven't played Oblivion or Moss Effect or Skyrim. So I wouldn't know about those.

[Infinitron]

Controversial, but interesting. Why not just have an adjustable gold level? Or make it part of the difficulty slider? On the highest difficulty levels gold is scarce and maybe there are no merchants at all. It's strange that this has never really been a problem for me. Not in IWD or Fallout 1/2 or even BG2 or FONV. I haven't played Oblivion or Moss Effect or Skyrim. So I wouldn't know about those.

 

You're probably not a pack-rat like many/most RPG players are.

[Entropious]

First of all, I believe that ALL magical items, or those possessing any supernatural abilities and traits, should be so valuable and rare that literally no one would sell them, no matter how much coin anyone offers. To be blunt, I am completely for the idea of 99% shops selling purely "mundane" items, those produced through regular labour and other technological means. The only "magical" items which could be sold on a more or less regular basis, but still be extremely expensive, would be potions.

Secondly, no "Identify" spell should be available, thus opening the possibility for a character to buy, for a hefty sum, a "blessed relic" from a priest in a temple, which later on turns out to be nothing more than a regular devotional item. I have no qualms about simply punishing the players for being too carefree with their shopping. Moreover, in order the avoid the "reload" tactic, such events should be completely random, and while X times you buy/collect/steal a possibly enchanted/blessed item it would turn out to be fake, the Y time you buy it it would actually turn out to be real. Also, as mentioned before, one would have to wait for a chance to utilise it in order to verify their "magical" potential, or else emply some esoteric sage.

Thirdly, hunger, thirst and, most of all, fatigue should be introduced. You try to save some coin by buying the cheapest room in the worst inn? Been sleeping two weeks non-stop in the forest? Sure, why not, but now you suffer negative modifiers to reflect just show tired and generally worn out you are.

[OldRPG'sAreGood]

Well, very expensive luxury rooms in inns, entrance fees to places, tolls if there are borders of kingdoms and the like, things like the magic using license in BG2, merchants who rip off the player with some kind of bad merchandise, all that and similar things could stop money from piling to the player. And well, make quality goods expensive and that helps the problem. Also bribes, renovations, charity and such could be used so that the player can throw money around.

 

And maybe some quest, done the "right"(or "wrong") way, could lead to inflation in the region, lowering the players "buying strength"(I lacked a better word for that...). And the player house most likely leeches money from the player, if not in any other way, then maybe by customization. Well thieves could take the players money as well, though that might get annoying(looking at you, kids of the Den).

[general_azure]

Some observations on the topic I gathered over the years (mainly focused on the old infinity engine games):

 

- In most games, shopkeepers will be able to instantly come up with any amount of cash to purchase items from you. I recently sold a single magical flute in lowly Kuldahar for more than the likely value of the whole town. Limiting the amount vendors can spend in a certain timeframe will certainly not eliminate the problem, but at least slow it down. At least it took me longer to get rich in the elder scrolls games.

 

- As stated above, there are almost never items on sale that are better, or can even compete with the stuff you take from fallen foes (especially the kind of foe with unique name and some dialogue before you eviscerate him). Kinda odd how their old and used junk is better than anything crafted in the realm.

 

- Non-magic equipment is sold way below production cost. A suit of leather armor is cheaper than a drink in Easthaven.

 

- As already mentioned, potions are useless after the early game. 9 hp restored out of 150? Strength set to less than what I'd have without? No deal.

 

- After some point every half decent enemy will wield a valuable magical weapon, driving item inflation to new heights. You can probably blame the old "Protection from normal weapons" effect for that one. Might be a better idea to make foes tough via the skill with which they use their equipment, not the gear itself.

 

- Slowly degrading equipment might make a decent money sink. The key element here being slowly, not those single use swords from the beginning of baldurs gate.

 

- Since all of this makes you rich rather fast, thievery is generally quite pointless. Though this is probably another topic altogether.

[MinotaurWarrior]

Secondly, no "Identify" spell should be available, thus opening the possibility for a character to buy, for a hefty sum, a "blessed relic" from a priest in a temple, which later on turns out to be nothing more than a regular devotional item. I have no qualms about simply punishing the players for being too carefree with their shopping. Moreover, in order the avoid the "reload" tactic, such events should be completely random, and while X times you buy/collect/steal a possibly enchanted/blessed item it would turn out to be fake, the Y time you buy it it would actually turn out to be real. Also, as mentioned before, one would have to wait for a chance to utilise it in order to verify their "magical" potential, or else emply some esoteric sage.

That'll just make the reload problem worse, and more annoying. Players will reload for the best possible result.

[metiman]

There's no such thing as a reload problem. No one is forcing anyone to reload the game.

[BasaltineBadger]

Just make one-use items expensive and actually usable. Potions are almost always almost never useful because you can replace their effects with spell and magical arrows/bombs and stuff are either cheap as dirt or not wort their price (possibly both). An expensive but affordable special arrows that one-hit kill certain monster type would make certain seemingly impossible areas possible. Expensive elixir that gives high boos to your charisma or lock-picking skill that could be used in a pinch. And just limit the gold you give the player. People in NV started offering ludicrous rewards way too soon.

[Entropious]

Perhaps, in the case of weapon and armour prices, we should stick more to historical realia. I'll give two examples.

 

The Polish "winged hussars" armour was so expensive that one could purchase several VILLAGES for the price of one. Turkish soldiers started carrying lassoes around for the sole purpose of stealing armour without damaging it with weapons. Once a footman stripped the set of armour off a soldier, he would simply desert of the battlefield and live happily ever after.

 

The armour worn by Roman Legionaires was even more expensive, and more importantly, was proscribed only to the Legions themselves.

 

As one can clearly see by these simple examples, purchasing any set of armour, especially metal one, should be an undertaking in itself for a lowly character, equal to the gathering of 10,000 gold pieces in order to save Imoen. This way, one starts really caring about how much gold he or she owns.

Also, weapon and armour deterioration is a must, with repair costs being much steeper than in other RPG's.

 

In short, the adventuring business should be one always on the brink of poverty, with desperate beings doing everything they can, even morally dubious deeds, in order to fill their stomachs and find a warm place to sleep.

Edited September 18, 2012 by Entropious

[IrishLuigi]

- Slowly degrading equipment might make a decent money sink. The key element here being slowly, not those single use swords from the beginning of baldurs gate.

I like this idea.

 

Do you believe that there should be an option to send it to a blacksmith to repair? (Which I approve of, if it's suitably expensive and the blacksmith doesn't immediately repair your sword, instead taking a few days to do it.)

[Entropious]

No, not "sending". Going there yourself, each and every time, which would be especially tasty in situations when time would be of essence. In reality, weapons were much to expensive to just trust someone else to oversee the repairs. After all, your life depended on it being in prime condition.

[Skie Nightfall]

Can't recall the last game I played where money wasn't broken and I didn't become super rich (e.g. Skyrim - gold reward scale in such a stupid way).

It would be nice to have a balanced economy game for a change, were rewards don't go overboard, and you have to think about your investments.

[Crosmando]

I hope they test the game economy thoroughly before releasing the game. I remember one old RPG you could forge weapons with basic materials you could find, and then sell them back to merchants for stupidely high prices (and for some reason no matter how many times you sold the same sword to the same merchant he always agreed and paid the same price as if the laws of supply and demand didn't exist), otherwise the game was great but this one exploit broke it

[Moonlight Butterfly]

I want to be really happy when I find a bag of gold or similar not just shrug and chuck it on the pile. Skyrim annoys the hell out of me because you have infinite moneys by the time you are like level 20.

[Thraxen]

Never massively liked durability on stuff if it goes down stupidly quickly. New Vegas did it alright with the durability not affecting effectiveness until it's under 50%, but it'd be better if there was some way to keep your weapons in a decent condition without having to splurge a load of money on a blacksmith. Maybe if you don't clean/sharpen your weapons, they lose durability much quicker?

[Pidesco]

A dynamic game economy would go a long way towards improving the problems with money in RPGs.

[general_azure]

Do you believe that there should be an option to send it to a blacksmith to repair? (Which I approve of, if it's suitably expensive and the blacksmith doesn't immediately repair your sword, instead taking a few days to do it.)

 

There should obviously be the option of having your gear repaired, with the cost/complexity depending on the value and nature of the item. Though sending might be a problem when you're deep inside some monster infected hellhole, so you might have to walk yourself. Which is also why I emphasized the "slowly" part, to avoid annoyance you shouldn't be forced to run there too frequently or have your gear break down faster than you can complete a dungeon.

 

Of course, you could also add skills to allow you to repair gear yourself at the appropriate facilities, at a reduced cost.