Gamers Against Bigotry

[Blarghagh]

http://gamersagainstbigotry.org/

 

Since it's inception, Gamers Against Bigotry has been repeatedly attacked by hackers to the point where game websites will no longer mention them or print articles about it, so gamer forums are the only recourse left. Please support Gamers Against Bigotry and help reclaim the gaming community from filth spewing manchildren.

 

Other sources about Bigotry and Harrassment in the video game community.

 

http://www.designersnotebook.com/Columns/115_A_Call_to_Arms/115_a_call_to_arms.htm

A Designer's Notebook Column by renowned Game Designer and Game Theorist Ernest W. Adams about reclaiming the community. Because of it's subject matter and it's mention of Gamers Against Bigotry game website Gamasutra refused to run this out of fear for reprisal.

 

http://penny-arcade.com/patv/episode/harassment

The Extra Credits episode about Harrassment.

 

http://www.gamepolitics.com/2012/06/12/feminist-frequency-kickstarter-successful-despite-internet-asshats

An article about the towards against women who speak out against sexism in games, and a successor article about the horrendous slander and virtual violence against this person: http://www.gamepolitics.com/2012/07/12/too-much-hate-anita-sarkeesian

 

http://kotaku.com/5875690/these-might-be-the-most-sexist-gamers-on-the-planet

Kotaku article about sexist gamers.

 

http://kotaku.com/5889066/competitive-gamers-inflammatory-comments-spark-sexual-harassment-debate

Kotaku article about the infamous Cross Assault debacle.

 

This behaviour is unnacceptable and we, gamers as a culture, are responsible for allowing it to happen. It's up to us to make it stop.

[Morgoth]

and we, gamers as a culture

**** off I'm not one of you.

[Blarghagh]

I'll more than gladly accept that, but thanks for completely missing the point and going offtopic with the first reply in a thread.

[Gorgon]

Good luck with trying to keep people from being **** on the internet. It's totally going to work.

[Morgoth]

No, I'm not missing the point. If you're suggesting that we (these fine Obsidian board members) are typical angry gamer nerds that bully women and just generally make asses out of themselves, and that *we* are responsible for such behaviour, then you're dead wrong. I'm not part of this "culture". Anybody who seeks to be part of a certain culture is imo brain dead anyway.

Developers should just think independendly and make what they believe in, period.

Edited July 26, 2012 by Morgoth

[Blarghagh]

Actually, judging by your interpretation of what I said, I have to repeat that you are completely and utterly missing the point, your teen angst about not wanting to conform to popular culture aside. I'm not saying Obsidian people are typical gamer bullies, in fact the reason I'm posting this here is because Obsidian is NOT. As Gorgon so easily establishes, it's the "pfft, it's just the internet" attitude of the smarter and mature people in the gaming community that allows this sort of behaviour to continue and ruin gaming as a hobby for thousands of people.

[Malcador]

That's one big windmill to tilt at.

[Morgoth]

Actually, judging by your interpretation of what I said, I have to repeat that you are completely and utterly missing the point, your teen angst about not wanting to conform to popular culture aside. I'm not saying Obsidian people are typical gamer bullies, in fact the reason I'm posting this here is because Obsidian is NOT. As Gorgon so easily establishes, it's the "pfft, it's just the internet" attitude of the smarter and mature people in the gaming community that allows this sort of behaviour to continue and ruin gaming as a hobby for thousands of people.

Why do you care so much about this "gaming community"? And how does it destroy out hobby? Developers will keep making games, gamers will keep buying games, regardless what other people think.

[Blarghagh]

Not sure if trolling, but here goes:

 

I've stopped playing Blizzard games online despite enjoying the games because having to deal with Battle.net users' particular brand of vile isn't worth it. Competetive games such as League of Legends are filled with abuse and rampant racism. I also know several women who have stopped playing online games they enjoy playing because the moment someone (through name, profile, vent-chat or whatever) figures out they're female they will get nothing but demeaning comments about their gender (being called things that would be censored here) and even threats of violence or rape. This is not a pet peeve, this is a serious problem with online gaming. If someone spits offensive bile at you in a restaurant, would you just take it? How is a game any different? I'm sick of being associated with these people by virtue of my hobby, and I'm also sick of having to deal with it.

 

Here's a question: Why are you being so antagonistic towards an initiative to stop discrimination?

 

It's not that big a windmill to tilt at. Both Ernest Adams' column and the Extra Credits episode give several easy fixes for problems like this.

[Morgoth]

Here's a question: Why are you being so antagonistic towards an initiative to stop discrimination?

Not sure if *you* are trolling.

 

Either way, I gave up on competitive multiplayer gaming, like, 10 years ago already due to reasons you mention. It doesn't bother me one tiny bit, I just play singleplayer.

[Blarghagh]

So you gave up a part of your hobby for these reasons, ergo these reasons have actively influenced you to change what you do in the past, yet they don't bother you at all? If the gaming "community" wasn't like this, is it likely that you would still be playing games online or not?

[Morgoth]

It's not like that hobby is so important to me that I'm actually bothered with all that change. Overall, gaming has matured in the past 10 years considerably, so I don't get what you're trying to achieve. Become a pro-cultivated gamer activist? Sure, be my guest, I guess.

[Malcador]

It's not that big a windmill to tilt at. Both Ernest Adams' column and the Extra Credits episode give several easy fixes for problems like this.

 

Easy to say, for sure (Adams' is annoying to read with the snark) but I'm not a fan of enforced politeness all that much. But as Gorgon stated, you'll be trying to make a place where people are both anonymous and relatively safe from any retribution to be a civil space. Rather uphill challenge, it'll probably happen eventually though.

[pmp10]

It's not that big a windmill to tilt at. Both Ernest Adams' column and the Extra Credits episode give several easy fixes for problems like this.

If they were easy fixes for a problem like this it would be long gone by now.

While multiplayer games are chiefly aimed at children there is simply no way to change things.

Player demographics being what it is mean that one adult cannot force behavioral change on a whole crowd of teenagers.

Especially since the latter have a lot more free time.

[Tigranes]

I think it's notable how we take these quick shortcuts to distance ourselves and say I don't really care, or I don't really belong to the community/culture though I partake of some/many of its fruits, or none of the issues really matter, etc. We don't do it just with games (for one thing, if you look at this particular issue from the lens of social discrimination as a whole, it has very little to do with how important gaming is to your life), we do it with all sorts of things, because if we cared or felt responsible about every single one it would drive us crazy. Which is why we make decisions on what to invest in and bracket out the rest. Which is fine - but then, why the negativity?

 

Am I or Morgoth a direct causal factor in juveniles calling everything on Earth gay in Call of Duty? No, duh. I might feel I have better things to do than care and rail about that and sign online petitions. But if I'm not, the least I can do is just recognise it's there, instead of trying to rationalise how that activist stuff never works anyway, or how I'm not really a part of it, or how it's not really a problem, how someone's being a nanny, etc.

[Blarghagh]

It's not that big a windmill to tilt at. Both Ernest Adams' column and the Extra Credits episode give several easy fixes for problems like this.

 

Easy to say, for sure (Adams' is annoying to read with the snark) but I'm not a fan of enforced politeness all that much. But as Gorgon stated, you'll be trying to make a place where people are both anonymous and relatively safe from any retribution to be a civil space. Rather uphill challenge, it'll probably happen eventually though.

 

I'm not sold on it being anonymous. I have no problems with my name being visible, or at least available in some way. RealID hasn't impacted me in the slightest. I use my real name on social media like Facebook and it doesn't matter to me. As for "forced politeness", I'm not saying everyone has to be polite, I don't care if someone calls me a **** in a game, but discrimination and harrassment are another thing entirely.

 

It's not that big a windmill to tilt at. Both Ernest Adams' column and the Extra Credits episode give several easy fixes for problems like this.

If they were easy fixes for a problem like this it would be long gone by now.

While multiplayer games are chiefly aimed at children there is simply no way to change things.

Player demographics being what it is mean that one adult cannot force behavioral change on a whole crowd of teenagers.

Especially since the latter have a lot more free time.

 

Nobody has attempted to fix it. There are some games with a "report harrassment" button or similar, but they remain mostly unused due to indifference and acceptance of the problem and the consequences are pretty much nonexistent. Ignore buttons don't work because they'll just jump unto a different account or toon or change their name and continue harrassing you.

 

It's not like that hobby is so important to me that I'm actually bothered with all that change. Overall, gaming has matured in the past 10 years considerably, so I don't get what you're trying to achieve. Become a pro-cultivated gamer activist? Sure, be my guest, I guess.

 

Fair enough. I'm not as willing to accept these things as you are. I agree that gaming has matured, but that doesn't mean that gamers have. Obsidian is actually one of the very few places game-related forums where you actually see mature gamers - and this place isn't exactly a hotbed of activity. I'm trying to raise awareness for what I consider a serious problem.

 

EDIT: And doesn't it bother anyone that the people speak out against this get attacked? Other than simple threats, Youtube videos on the subject get reported as terrorism, the website Gamers Against Bigotry has gotten hacked several times. Gamasutra runs all of Ernest Adams' Designer's Notebook columns but got cold feet on this one simply because of the violent way gamers react to this subject. The feminist gamer who announced a series about the subject became the subject of a game where the entire purpose was to beat the woman up. This is literally people being opressed.

Edited July 26, 2012 by TrueNeutral

[pmp10]

It's not that big a windmill to tilt at. Both Ernest Adams' column and the Extra Credits episode give several easy fixes for problems like this.

If they were easy fixes for a problem like this it would be long gone by now.

While multiplayer games are chiefly aimed at children there is simply no way to change things.

Player demographics being what it is mean that one adult cannot force behavioral change on a whole crowd of teenagers.

Especially since the latter have a lot more free time.

 

Nobody has attempted to fix it. There are some games with a "report harrassment" button or similar, but they remain mostly unused due to indifference and acceptance of the problem and the consequences are pretty much nonexistent. Ignore buttons don't work because they'll just jump unto a different account or toon or change their name and continue harrassing you.

 

Report button is exactly an attempt to alleviate the problem and it's as far as the developers will go - those abuse-spouting kids are their target audience after all.

There is simply no way to police player behavior in game - the sheer amount of languages and internet-slang mean even text-chat monitoring is ineffective and there is absolutely no-way to get voice-chat under control.

The only way to get such online communities to behave is for them to police themselves.

And for the biggest ones that won't happen as they are full of children.

[Blarghagh]

The assumption there being that this is all rebellious, dumb teenagers, which is simpy not true. It may be a part of the problem, but at least a large portion of the abusive gamers are NOT teenagers or children. In fact, the Cross Assault incident that sparked this debate across the internet recently was about abuse, threat of rape and then defense of said abuse towards a female gamer ("Sexism is a part of being a gamer!") by THIS GUY.

 

 

(Link if image doesn't work: http://static.guim.c...nd-Aris-007.jpg)

Edited July 26, 2012 by TrueNeutral

[Malcador]

It's not that big a windmill to tilt at. Both Ernest Adams' column and the Extra Credits episode give several easy fixes for problems like this.

 

Easy to say, for sure (Adams' is annoying to read with the snark) but I'm not a fan of enforced politeness all that much. But as Gorgon stated, you'll be trying to make a place where people are both anonymous and relatively safe from any retribution to be a civil space. Rather uphill challenge, it'll probably happen eventually though.

 

I'm not sold on it being anonymous. I have no problems with my name being visible, or at least available in some way. RealID hasn't impacted me in the slightest. I use my real name on social media like Facebook and it doesn't matter to me. As for "forced politeness", I'm not saying everyone has to be polite, I don't care if someone calls me a **** in a game, but discrimination and harrassment are another thing entirely.

 

Well is anonymous now, and on most online games you're just a handle (not sure how things are on the console side). The article by Adams seemed to have that aura of enforced civility where you have to 'earn' a right to speak or get fined for 'bad' (defined by who..) behaviour.

 

EDIT: And doesn't it bother anyone that the people speak out against this get attacked? Other than simple threats, Youtube videos on the subject get reported as terrorism, the website Gamers Against Bigotry has gotten hacked several times. Gamasutra runs all of Ernest Adams' Designer's Notebook columns but got cold feet on this one simply because of the violent way gamers react to this subject. The feminist gamer who announced a series about the subject became the subject of a game where the entire purpose was to beat the woman up. This is literally people being opressed.

 

Hm, yeah kind of. Some people on the internet seem to have crappy parents or weren't beaten enough as children, heh.

[Tigranes]

So what is their identity then? I had assumed the hacking attacks were lulzy at best. I assume you're not into conspiracies, but I could imagine, perhaps, something like a loose demographic of strongly discriminatory gamers of age 30+?

[Blarghagh]

In combination with dumb, rebellious teenagers yes, that is about the vague idea I had in mind concerning their identity. In all honesty, it's impossible to be sure but this problem is not limited to simply kicking boundaries to see how far they go.

 

It's not that big a windmill to tilt at. Both Ernest Adams' column and the Extra Credits episode give several easy fixes for problems like this.

 

Easy to say, for sure (Adams' is annoying to read with the snark) but I'm not a fan of enforced politeness all that much. But as Gorgon stated, you'll be trying to make a place where people are both anonymous and relatively safe from any retribution to be a civil space. Rather uphill challenge, it'll probably happen eventually though.

 

I'm not sold on it being anonymous. I have no problems with my name being visible, or at least available in some way. RealID hasn't impacted me in the slightest. I use my real name on social media like Facebook and it doesn't matter to me. As for "forced politeness", I'm not saying everyone has to be polite, I don't care if someone calls me a **** in a game, but discrimination and harrassment are another thing entirely.

 

Well is anonymous now, and on most online games you're just a handle (not sure how things are on the console side). The article by Adams seemed to have that aura of enforced civility where you have to 'earn' a right to speak or get fined for 'bad' (defined by who..) behaviour.

 

EDIT: And doesn't it bother anyone that the people speak out against this get attacked? Other than simple threats, Youtube videos on the subject get reported as terrorism, the website Gamers Against Bigotry has gotten hacked several times. Gamasutra runs all of Ernest Adams' Designer's Notebook columns but got cold feet on this one simply because of the violent way gamers react to this subject. The feminist gamer who announced a series about the subject became the subject of a game where the entire purpose was to beat the woman up. This is literally people being opressed.

 

Hm, yeah kind of. Some people on the internet seem to have crappy parents or weren't beaten enough as children, heh.

 

I have to admit the whole "earn the right to speak" idea is one idea that doesn't sit well with me. It strikes me as "guilty until proven innocent", plus I'm assuming that most people who don't have an agenda to push won't bother anyway.

[Monte Carlo]

I have mixed feelings. I too, am leery of "enforced civility." The left increasingly use 'isms' to shut down debate they don't like (normally because they are losing), and online is their latest Gramscian battleground. Screw them. Personally, if a group of guys want to have a forum where they bitch about unrealistic nun units and I don't like it then I can (a) troll the hell out of it until I'm banned, just for the lulz or (b) just bloody well avoid it.

 

Getting incensed on someone elses behalf isn't (usually) how I roll.

 

On the other hand, the level of abuse on some online gaming servers is a disgrace, just on grounds of basic human civility. Company of Heroes, for example, is infested with Nazis. The gamereplays.org chatroom is full of racist and anti-semitic BS. Relic should be ashamed of itself for not moderating it.

 

Now, what's the difference between allegedly-sexist-nun-haters and CoH? Well, if I want to partake in the community for a game I bought and which has a EULA specifically prohibiting that type of behaviour then I think I'm entitled to see some standards enforced. The web forum? It's private property, dude, and I support property rights.

 

So I'm broadly supportive of what TN says. Then again, women are getting into gaming in such a big way, the dollars will follow them and the dudes bemoaning the lack of machismo in their games might as well shout at the nearest raincloud to stop pissing on them.

 

There are lots of women's forums that are hotbeds of the type of lazy sexism that they can get away with cuz they're women. If a bunch of crotchety dudes want a web-cave then let them get on with it. Not really my cup of tea, but there you go.

 

Cheers

MC

[Blarghagh]

Yeah, I don't care if they want to congregate on their own little private island. That's their thing. Games aren't.

[entrerix]

possible point of view: "i dont know much, but i saw idiocracy, and im pretty sure things are just going to keep getting stupider."

 

another: "how will a bunch of non-racist gamers convince racist ones to not be racist when rational non-racist non-gamers can't do the same for the racist non-gamers?"

 

a third: "use the mute button, teach your children to use the mute button. take satisfaction in the fact that you make more money than the foul mouthed infant."

 

a fourth: "always press charges when able."

Edited July 26, 2012 by entrerix

[Monte Carlo]

You are a lawyer and I claim per diem fees, lunch and additional costs.