Update from the War on Drugs

[Walsingham]

Short video extract (Should work outside UK, apologies in advance if not)

 

Caracas is just one city affected by the War on Drugs. I know we've had this debate before, but I don't see it going away.

 

Most of those reading this forum are living in open democracies. The War is being prosecuted in our names. I think that makes it worth talking about. Yet compared with our discussions about the War on Terror the casualties eclipse it by many factorials.

[Morgoth]

[213374U]

Short video extract (Should work outside UK, apologies in advance if not)

 

Caracas is just one city affected by the War on Drugs. I know we've had this debate before, but I don't see it going away.

 

Most of those reading this forum are living in open democracies. The War is being prosecuted in our names. I think that makes it worth talking about. Yet compared with our discussions about the War on Terror the casualties eclipse it by many factorials.

Consumer states need something to waste tax money on. Otherwise corruption might get out of hand and people would start getting grumpy about the status quo. Funny how this has the effect of maintaining endemic corruption in producer countries, though. And if the cost is a few thousand casualties every year in some backwater country that most people wouldn't even be able to find on a map, who cares.

[Walsingham]

Frankly, I wonder if that's true.

 

Prohibition doesn't stop people getting drugs. But we have to pretend to care, so let's sacrifice a few hundred thousand wogs every year.

 

Mind you, I do also wonder if in some countries the war of drugs isn't just a rebranding of some sort of war on the poor. I doubt the violence would disappear simply because the revenue disappeared. But fundamentally it couldn't continue at the same level, simply because guns and bullets and sicarios cost money.

[Gorgon]

Tax the hell out of them, make it a legal business, and use the proceeds for rehab programs. This is just what we need to get us out of the economic crisis. New job sectors.

[Gorgon]

One thing though. If the gangs can't make money selling drugs anymore are they all going to get real jobs, or start kidnapping or robbing people instead. So, maybe these deaths are derived from the war on drugs, but we aren't really considering the alternative, so what do we compare them to ?

Edited September 25, 2011 by Gorgon

[Nepenthe]

One thing though. If the gangs can't make money selling drugs anymore are they all going to get real jobs, or start kidnapping or robbing people instead. So, maybe these deaths are derived from the war on drugs, but we aren't really considering the alternative, so what do we compare them to ?

Mmh, we might get a "reverse Ireland" where drug dealers become politically motivated (counter)revolutionaries!

[213374U]

One thing though. If the gangs can't make money selling drugs anymore are they all going to get real jobs, or start kidnapping or robbing people instead. So, maybe these deaths are derived from the war on drugs, but we aren't really considering the alternative, so what do we compare them to ?

Maybe to any number of other countries where the drug industry doesn't represent a sizable % of their economic activity? The real problem isn't the gangs, but the corruption that is necessary to keep such a huge illegal business running. It's a necessary consequence of outlawing such a widespread and profitable activity whose products are in perpetual high demand. Edited September 25, 2011 by 213374U

[Orogun01]

One thing though. If the gangs can't make money selling drugs anymore are they all going to get real jobs, or start kidnapping or robbing people instead. So, maybe these deaths are derived from the war on drugs, but we aren't really considering the alternative, so what do we compare them to ?

Kidnapping rings are already common in South America, particularly in Venezuela.

 

I'm actually a bit amazed that the cops aren't wearing a more heavy duty armor (no wonder he got shot through the vest) bit of reminder for everyone, the kingpin who organizes all those "poor" people doesn't live poverty. Plus there is a great deal of distance between necessity and viciousness, thugs seem partial to the latter.

[Calax]

One thing though. If the gangs can't make money selling drugs anymore are they all going to get real jobs, or start kidnapping or robbing people instead. So, maybe these deaths are derived from the war on drugs, but we aren't really considering the alternative, so what do we compare them to ?

Kidnapping rings are already common in South America, particularly in Venezuela.

 

I'm actually a bit amazed that the cops aren't wearing a more heavy duty armor (no wonder he got shot through the vest) bit of reminder for everyone, the kingpin who organizes all those "poor" people doesn't live poverty. Plus there is a great deal of distance between necessity and viciousness, thugs seem partial to the latter.

Hell... kidnapping is a huge issue in Mexico.

[Orogun01]

One thing though. If the gangs can't make money selling drugs anymore are they all going to get real jobs, or start kidnapping or robbing people instead. So, maybe these deaths are derived from the war on drugs, but we aren't really considering the alternative, so what do we compare them to ?

Kidnapping rings are already common in South America, particularly in Venezuela.

 

I'm actually a bit amazed that the cops aren't wearing a more heavy duty armor (no wonder he got shot through the vest) bit of reminder for everyone, the kingpin who organizes all those "poor" people doesn't live poverty. Plus there is a great deal of distance between necessity and viciousness, thugs seem partial to the latter.

Hell... kidnapping is a huge issue in Mexico.

Yeah...Venezuelans are prettier, therefore I'm more concerned.

 

Plus I have a friend that's a Venezuelan exchange student and I get a bit concerned when she travels back to her home.

[Lexx]

Was it in Maxico, where they kidnap random people on the street and make their family pay money, so they can get back at least the (then) dead body?

[Nepenthe]

One thing though. If the gangs can't make money selling drugs anymore are they all going to get real jobs, or start kidnapping or robbing people instead. So, maybe these deaths are derived from the war on drugs, but we aren't really considering the alternative, so what do we compare them to ?

Kidnapping rings are already common in South America, particularly in Venezuela.

 

I'm actually a bit amazed that the cops aren't wearing a more heavy duty armor (no wonder he got shot through the vest) bit of reminder for everyone, the kingpin who organizes all those "poor" people doesn't live poverty. Plus there is a great deal of distance between necessity and viciousness, thugs seem partial to the latter.

Hell... kidnapping is a huge issue in Mexico.

I hear it's an issue even in Arizona.

[Walsingham]

Yes, kidnapping is an issue. But nothing, and I mean NOTHING comes close to drugs in terms of supporting a state within a state, terror, corruption so on and so forth. My own analysis is that widespread kidnapping is as much about efficently utilising all the force and fear generated to dominate the drug markets. It is in harmony with and feeds from the lack of faith in official law and order generated by drug oriented organised crime.

 

As you say, all that free capital already in drug networks will have to go somewhere. A lot of it is going to shift to things like kidnapping, prostitution, and attempts to dominate the legal drug markets. Really smart money will probably go into financial fraud, botnets and so on. However, it's wishful thinking to believe that organised crime isn't already moving into these avenues of revenue generation. It's just happening slower.

[Orogun01]

As you say, all that free capital already in drug networks will have to go somewhere. A lot of it is going to shift to things like kidnapping, prostitution, and attempts to dominate the legal drug markets. Really smart money will probably go into financial fraud, botnets and so on. However, it's wishful thinking to believe that organised crime isn't already moving into these avenues of revenue generation. It's just happening slower.

The economy its bad all around, I would guess that recreational drug consumption has dropped forcing them to focus on other avenues. I need to get confirmation on this but with an emergent market in South America that money could well become legit (I know of Brazil for sure but not the rest) Even if not, with more investors and developed countries taking an interests its going to be in the top priorities of those governments to guarantee a safe environment.

[Walsingham]

I could see the logic of that, Orogun, but you are forgetting that the wholesale cost of most drugs is incredibly low. The economy would have to tank to spectacular levels before drugs costs became a problem.

 

Unless I've got confused.

[Orogun01]

I could see the logic of that, Orogun, but you are forgetting that the wholesale cost of most drugs is incredibly low. The economy would have to tank to spectacular levels before drugs costs became a problem.

 

Unless I've got confused.

Maybe we have different views on what the model of drug trade is.

 

I see it as a drug lord who controls the production through superior firepower, which he has to keep because that's his bottom line. So I'm thinking that there is a high production cost on related goods and opportunity cost.

 

Personally I think that they would either have to increase transportation (which is a complicated process when it comes to drugs) or cater to a wider base. Also exporters have to face competition from manufacturers that are located in the US, who can deliver without the hassle of international export. Even if wholesale is low is a matter of demand being low.

Edited September 27, 2011 by Orogun01

[Walsingham]

This is an interesting topic, but one I fear that after three nights with almost no sleep I cannot do justice to.

 

Perhaps someone else would care to field a response to Orogun's point?

[Orogun01]

This is an interesting topic, but one I fear that after three nights with almost no sleep I cannot do justice to.

 

Perhaps someone else would care to field a response to Orogun's point?

I'll wait, do you feel like sharing the cause of your sleeplessness?

[Gromnir]

ambulances. picture an ambulance that is driven in accordance with all the basic rules o' the road. gots a 7-year old girl with a gaping chest wound in back o' the vehicle, but the driver calmly waits for red light to turn green before carefully entering a busy intersection. is no flashing lights or screaming siren to announce the passage o' the ambulance and its threatened cargo. darn. is a school day so the driver reduces speed to 25 mph as he makes a pastoral glide past winston churchill elementary in sheboygan, wi. the mother o' the injured girl is riding in the back o' the ambulance. she watches as her blue-lipped daughter's labored breath slows. tiny blood-flecked bits o' foam leak from the child's nose and mouth. the girl's eyes is wide but unfocused and largely sightless--she is in too much shock to be consciously recognizing anything her eyes "see," but to her wailing mother it would appear that the girl is gripped by terror. etc.

 

ambulances driving fast does not statistically save lives. in point o' fact, speedy emergency vehicles is responsible for a shockingly large number o' deaths each year-- the number o' lives saved by lightning-quick arrival at emergency rooms is more than countered by the number o' fatalities actual caused by emergency vehicles each year. so then, why does we continue to require that ambulances drive at dangerous speeds?

 

HA! Good Fun!

[Humodour]

Decriminalise possession of all drugs. Make the least harmful ones legal to buy and sell (with regulations and tax similar to alcohol), and funnel the tax money gained directly into health improvement and drug education programmes. This does not mean propaganda programmes. But if drug X can cause Y problems, educate people on that, no bull**** or agenda. If marijuana is consumed habitually it causes productivity and relationship problems, so educate people on that and encourage consumption in moderation if as is done here with alcohol.

 

Some drugs are known to be neurotoxic, extremely addictive, or cause other reasonably severe health problems, such as methamphetamine (somewhat neurotoxic to dopamine receptors) ecstasy (somewhat neurotoxic to serotonin receptors), nicotine (causes bone degradation and is as addictive as heroine), heroine (extremely addictive), alcohol (addictive for many people, causes a wide array of physical health problems due to being a solvent, and has been shown to cause long-term gene regulation changes in the brain and shrink the size of various brain centres such as the amygdala - the emotional processing centre), cocaine (causes heart damage), and a certain class of rare psychedelics which cause permanent heart damage. I don't think these should be legalised, and I think supply/dealing in them should remain a gaolable offence. This shouldn't be a problem if their far less harmful or addictive analogues are legally available and people are being properly educated about the harms of various drugs, rather than being brainwashed with lies about how all illegal drugs are equivalently bad. Of course, I can't see alcohol being banned any time soon. Nicotine is going that way, though, which is good.

 

An important aspect of any drug education programme would be getting people to understand that the safest and least addictive consumption method is oral, and that injecting, snorting, rectal administration and smoking are all very dangerous for different reasons (the one negative they all share in common being that they bypass first-pass metabolism). Injecting has problems with dirty needles, overdose, addictiveness, and potentially lethal blood clots from poorly prepared solutions of a drug (e.g. crushing up tablets and forgetting to remove the filler and binder), people have been known to die easily from overdose via rectal administration, smoking is very addictive and causes a multitude of physical harms such as emphysema and lung cancer, and snorting destroys the mucous membranes in the nose and is extremely painful.

[213374U]

Of course, I can't see alcohol being banned any time soon. Nicotine is going that way, though, which is good.

And this, kids, is what 21st century fascism looks like.

[Humodour]

Of course, I can't see alcohol being banned any time soon. Nicotine is going that way, though, which is good.

And this, kids, is what 21st century fascism looks like.

 

21st century fascism is banning and legalising the SUPPLY of drugs based on peer-reviewed scientific evidence of their level of harm and addictiveness? OK weirdo.

[Walsingham]

Numbers has a perfectly serious point, Krez.

 

We all do this so don't be offended, but has it occurred to you that your liberatarian stance on religions poking their nose into other people's affairs is directly at odds with your stance on doctors poking their nose in. Yet physical health is just for life, while spiritual health (even without an afterlife) is for eternity?

 

Further, and without the caveat about taking offence , you've got some very strnge notions about free choice and drug use. Oral administration may be safest, but people don't inject because it's fun. They inject because injection delivers the best hit, pound for pound. Oral administration sucks by comparison. I know that from direct experience of morphine, and from studying it.

 

Your other point about linking legalisation to effects on health completely misses my point. To such a degree that I had to read your post three times to be sure. You want to prohibit the sale or supply of drugs which cause harm, but my entire point is that prohibition IS NOT AN OPTION.

[Hell Kitty]

We all do this so don't be offended, but has it occurred to you that your liberatarian stance on religions poking their nose into other people's affairs is directly at odds with your stance on doctors poking their nose in.

 

No it isn't. This is like when people ask why one can be against the death penalty but for a woman's right to choose to have an abortion. These things you say are the same, are not the same.

 

Yet physical health is just for life, while spiritual health (even without an afterlife) is for eternity?

 

The problem with Christians harassing people for not adhering to the rules of a religion those people may not even believe in, is that by being judgmental they are being spiritually unhealthy. I might still be a Christian if more Christians actually followed the teachings of the man their religion is named after.