Libya 2

[obyknven]

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=UenBxFV4v9Y...player_embedded

 

 

"liberated" Somalia:

 

Obscenely named "Operation Restore Hope," U.S. and "allied" troops invaded and occupied Somalia in the early 1990s, bringing a reign of terror.

 

While the invasion of Somalia was marketed "operation restore hope," and was supposed to provide food to starving people, Colin Powell revealed the real goal when he stated at the time that pulling U.S. troops out of Somalia would be "devastating to our hopes for the New World Order ..." George Bush I's post-cold war "New World Order" had, in part, the objective of creating a monopoly of U.S. power in regions of the world where the former Soviet Union had held influence, including the horn of Africa where Somalia is located. When he was elected, President Clinton kept U.S. troops in Somalia, while adding tens of thousands of UN troops to the occupation.

Edited August 29, 2011 by obyknven

[obyknven]

"Liberated" Iraq

 

A new study published by The Lancet estimates that 655,000 Iraqis, the vast majority of them innocent civilians, have been killed as a result of the bombing and occupation of Iraq.

 

Here's a rundown of the gracious liberties the Iraqi people have been afforded.

 

RIGHT TO PROTEST

 

- Iraqis are routinely arrested and taken to Abu Ghraib style detention facilities for the crime of "showing dislike" to their occupiers. In one case this involved an individual holding up a protest placard. In another incident, an Iraqi had his mouth taped over and was arrested for "making anti-coalition statements." In some cases, protesters are simply gunned down and killed. The media are banned from reporting on protests. Not even Palestinians are subject to this kind of treatment.

 

- In legalese resurrected verbatim from Saddam Hussein?s penal code, the Iraqi government has criminalized criticism and even ridicule of the government or any of its officials. Ridiculing is defined as exposing corruption or questioning the actions of government officials. Iraq's new government considers itself to be so democratic that dissent is unnecessary - so they've outlawed it!

 

PROTECTION FROM UNLAWFUL SEARCHES AND SEIZURES

 

- Iraqis are kidnapped and thrown in some of the same dungeons used by Saddam Hussein for the crime of not showing their papers at checkpoints. Those who cite the threat of car bombs as the necessity which mandates this should recall the incident where British SAS personnel were caught dressed up as Arabs with fake wigs and garb attacking a police station.

 

- Iraqi's homes are routinely raided and all military age men arrested.

 

RIGHT TO KEEP AND BEAR ARMS

 

- Immediately after the invasion and occupation, all Iraqis were ordered to turn in their guns or face arrest. Iraqis enjoyed universal arms ownership under Saddam Hussein.

 

INSTANT EXTRA-JUDICIAL PUNISHMENT

 

- Petty thieves who steal such things as firewood have their vehicles crushed by U.S. Abrams tanks as punishment.

 

- The UN's chief anti-torture expert recently said that cases of torture in Iraq outstripped those under Saddam Hussein and that the situation was "out of control." The outgoing UN human rights chief Dr. John Pace dropped a bombshell when he told an obscure Maltese newspaper that as many as a thousand detainees a month are being tortured to death in Iraq.

 

- Iraqis are subject to "collective punishment" - an staple fascist model - whereby U.S. forces kill ten men from one village in response to a single U.S. army casualty.

 

- Multiple videos have surfaced which show U.S. military personnel driving down Iraqi highways and randomly assassinating drivers on a whim and then laughing and high-fiving. Other videos show U.S. forces zealously finishing off wounded Iraqis with glee, declaring the carnage "awesome" and anticipating the next kill. Another video shows troops bemoaning the fact that they are not able to shoot children who throw rocks.

 

FREEDOM OF THE PRESS

 

- Arab television networks and newspapers that do not obediently tow the line of the occupation are raided and shut down and editors are sometimes gunned down on the street. The U.S. military plants propaganda in newspapers as a matter of course.

 

- A pre-war policy outlined the intention of the U.S. military to target for assassination any independent reporter who was not embedded within U.S. ranks. SInce that order more journalists have been killed in Iraq than the entirety of the Vietnam war - the latest being British ITV reporter Terry Lloyd, who was shot in the head by U.S. troops. Mazen Dana, the Award winning Reuters camera man, was shot dead after uncovering evidence of U.S. mass graves.

 

- "Dozens of Iraqi journalists have been kidnapped by criminal gangs or detained by the American military, on suspicion that they are helping Sunni insurgents or Shiite militias. One, Bilal Hussein, who photographed insurgents in Anbar Province for The Associated Press, has been in American custody without charges since April," reported the New York Times.

 

DEMOCRACY

 

- Local elections and in provincial cities and towns across Iraq were cancelled in favor of U.S. "hand-picked mayors and administrators," that were formerly part of Saddam Hussein's Baath Party.

 

RIGHT TO PEACEABLY ASSEMBLE

 

- Iraqis are subject to snap announcements of curfews and ordered to remain in their homes.

 

Iraq is nothing more than an elected dictatorship.

[Calax]

I love entirely unsourced garbage... makes me imagine a planet I throw my trash at and have it be used.

 

As to the issue of the transition between an authoritarian regime and a democratic one, I think that if you're going to have that happen, it has to be in steps. Unless an outside force wants to play imperial owner for a long time (100 years?) they have to be able to set up a style of government that can be curtailed as demanded by it's majority classes.

 

I mean, most democracies rise from a rather brutal bloody war, and then have LOOOONG periods where they have to re-organize their government, and root out the inherent corruption with a new ruling class. Much of the Japanese issues were taken care of by the fact that the civil government was mostly kept similar to it's previous incarnation, but where the power lay had been nudged, but in most of the ones that are being "set up" by the US it's in places where the previous political system was so entirely different that they can't deal with the new power structure on their own and if the support of their "benefactor" is removed, it'll just become a complete pile of chaos.

 

I always find it funny when people say "we're bringing democracy to ______!" when that nation has so existed in a bottle under an authoritarian government they don't know how to LIVE in any other real ways. It's like people expect to walk in, kill the leader, and immediately see the entire area re-organize itself in all of 30 seconds into a proper constitutional republic as found in the "best" parts of the world.

 

As Iraq and Afganistan has shown us, that doesn't happen. And if people paid attention to their history books, they would have seen it didn't work that way 400 years ago either (the fall of the British Monarchy under Charles I and the subsequent Republic that failed so badly it got politely ejected by the parliament of Charles II... except the navigation acts).

 

for the tl;dr version:

 

If you want to kill a government and replace it with an entirely different structure, you have to build yourself an empire and expect a LOOOONG wait.

[obyknven]

If you want to kill a government and replace it with an entirely different structure, you have to build yourself an empire and expect a LOOOONG wait.

There's nothing so permanent as temporary. Welcome to Tyranny.

 

Leonor: Libya August 28

 

 

Anti-Black Racism Among Libyan Rebels .

 

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=IA-YYjDfElk...=watch_response

Edited August 29, 2011 by obyknven

[Walsingham]

Cal, it's fairly clear that barely one of our posts responding to obyknven is being read. This is blatant trolling. And what is more cut and paste jihadi propaganda.

 

I wouldn't normally dream of questioning board policy in the open, but what is the point of having forum rules if these are flouted so blatantly and with such disregard? If that's how things are going I have to at least call for mkreku to start posting nudie pics we can all enjoy.

[Gorgon]

Someone hacked a Nigerian spam bot and gave it pro Russian programming.

[Walsingham]

A leaked U.N. plan for a post-Moammar Gadhafi Libya involves deploying 200 unarmed military observers and 190 police officers to aid in the transition to elections in six-to-nine months, Al Jazeera reported Aug. 29.

 

From Stratfor.com

 

I can't work out if I should laugh or cry. What earthly good will 400 personnel be in a country as big and disconnected as Libya? UNAMIR, which was for a much smaller country (Rwanda) was more than 2,000!

[Gorgon]

You thought the EU were useless, just wait for the combined NATO, EU, Arab League of Nations Libya effort. Wouldn't surprise me if the numbers were low mostly for political reasons.

Edited August 29, 2011 by Gorgon

[Lexx]

Heh, looks like they found some german G36 'n stuff in Gaddafiworld. Illegal guntrade anyone?

Edited September 1, 2011 by Lexx

[Walsingham]

Meh. A rifle's just a rifle. Far more significant is all the electronic clobber that French firm was supplying. Or the stuff from General Dynamics - which came through the UK.

[213374U]

@Wals: no, can't help you. We went back and forth in the original thread, it should be around somewhere. I can give you an example off the top of my head: Q absolutely HAD to be stopped from committing atrocities on civilians, but if it's the good rebels rounding up people and executing them just for being black, no biggie. I'm sure that you can find more examples on your own. Not on Stratfor, though.

 

Just for kicks:

 

http://www.telegraph.co.uk/news/worldnews/...ated-Libya.html

 

http://www.reuters.com/article/2011/08/31/...E7JV2CF20110831

 

Libya is a democratic, independent state with Tripoli its capital, Islam its religion, sharia, Islamic law as the main source of legislation and Arabic as its official language. The rights of minority groups and all sections of society are guaranteed.

 

Yep, I'm sure things will be way better with these guys in charge.

[Walsingham]

Yes, I saw that the UN personnel had been rekjected. I have to wonder if the entire exercise wasn't a staged opportunity for the rebels to reject international support. Prove they can handle themselves.

 

I agree that swapping a nutbag for a bunch of fundamentalists would be a bad deal. I certainly regard the threat from Islamofascism as a good deal more serious than from Ghaddafi Inc. But shouldn't we at least wait and see whether that is what happens?

 

I agree that the notion of sharia law is undemocratic. But the reason it is popular is that normal law is seen as so corrupt in many parts of the world. Yes, I'd rather they went straight to a British model on day 1. But in a transitional period alone having a single code which everyone knows could be essential to stability. Provided the frfamework surrounding shariah is truly democratic then in time that can experience reform.

[Guard Dog]

This just in: the rebels are rounding up an imprisoning everyone who has comitted the awful crime of having black skin. Guard Dog news sources believe mass unmarked graves will be coming soon. So as the winds of freedom and liberty continue to blow through Libya (according to the American News media anyway) I'd like to extend a hearty "atta boy" to Barry O. After all thanks to him American assets and treasure helped make this possible-soon-to-be genocide happen.

 

http://news.yahoo.com/libyan-rebels-round-...-130723394.html

 

Edit: Sorry, it seems this is old news, you guys already knew about it. Well, it was news to me.

Edited September 5, 2011 by Guard Dog

[Humodour]

This just in: the rebels are rounding up an imprisoning everyone who has comitted the awful crime of having black skin. Guard Dog news sources believe mass unmarked graves will be coming soon. So as the winds of freedom and liberty continue to blow through Libya (according to the American News media anyway) I'd like to extend a hearty "atta boy" to Barry O. After all thanks to him American assets and treasure helped make this possible-soon-to-be genocide happen.

 

http://news.yahoo.com/libyan-rebels-round-...-130723394.html

 

Edit: Sorry, it seems this is old news, you guys already knew about it. Well, it was news to me.

 

a) A disproportionately high number of Africans in Libya were working for Gaddafi as mercenary soldiers, and in fact many were flown and driven into Libya by Gaddafi during the war, hence the distrust of Africans by the rebels - it's not racism at work here (as your link mentions!).

b) What mass unmarked graves? Quit raving. None have been discovered, and the evidence suggests none ever will, because they don't exist.

c) It is true the rebels have been doing executions on the spot (against the will of the chain of command - the National Transitional Council) OF GADDAFI SOLDIERS instead of taking prisoners. The bodies of a bunch of Gaddafi's extremists have been found this way, some Africans among them, but again, that's kinda because the Africans in question were FIGHTING against the rebels.

4) You didn't even read you're own bloody link. You just wanted to jump on any excuse to have a crack at Barack Obama because you've convinced yourself that he's some sort of Communist devil and thus everything he's associated with is bad. The link rubbishes your post. It even says this "There has been little credible evidence of rebels killing or systematically abusing captives during the six-month conflict."

[Guard Dog]

This just in: the rebels are rounding up an imprisoning everyone who has comitted the awful crime of having black skin. Guard Dog news sources believe mass unmarked graves will be coming soon. So as the winds of freedom and liberty continue to blow through Libya (according to the American News media anyway) I'd like to extend a hearty "atta boy" to Barry O. After all thanks to him American assets and treasure helped make this possible-soon-to-be genocide happen.

 

http://news.yahoo.com/libyan-rebels-round-...-130723394.html

 

Edit: Sorry, it seems this is old news, you guys already knew about it. Well, it was news to me.

 

a) A disproportionately high number of Africans in Libya were working for Gaddafi as mercenary soldiers, and in fact many were flown and driven into Libya by Gaddafi during the war, hence the distrust of Africans by the rebels - it's not racism at work here (as your link mentions!).

b) What mass unmarked graves? Quit raving. None have been discovered, and the evidence suggests none ever will, because they don't exist.

c) It is true the rebels have been doing executions on the spot (against the will of the chain of command - the National Transitional Council) OF GADDAFI SOLDIERS instead of taking prisoners. The bodies of a bunch of Gaddafi's extremists have been found this way, some Africans among them, but again, that's kinda because the Africans in question were FIGHTING against the rebels.

4) You didn't even read you're own bloody link. You just wanted to jump on any excuse to have a crack at Barack Obama because you've convinced yourself that he's some sort of Communist devil and thus everything he's associated with is bad. The link rubbishes your post. It even says this "There has been little credible evidence of rebels killing or systematically abusing captives during the six-month conflict."

Apparently the concept of tounge-in-cheek is a little beyond your grasp. Like so much else.

[Walsingham]

Fair play, GD. It does clearly say that there's no evidence of abusing captives. I just checked.

 

It's interesting, because I used to know an old ex mercenary from the sixties and he'd say that getting a merc gig was fraught with this kind of thing. If these had been eastern european mercs getting locked up would people be that bothered?

[Guard Dog]

Fair play, GD. It does clearly say that there's no evidence of abusing captives. I just checked.

 

It's interesting, because I used to know an old ex mercenary from the sixties and he'd say that getting a merc gig was fraught with this kind of thing. If these had been eastern european mercs getting locked up would people be that bothered?

In the Khallat al-Firjan neighborhood in south Tripoli, Associated Press reporters saw rebel forces punching a dozen black men before determining they were innocent migrant workers and releasing them.

 

The burned man, Ahmed Ali, said he'd come to Libya from his native Chad two years ago and worked as a house painter before the uprising.

 

"When the rebels entered Tripoli, some guys came and burned down my house," he said. He escaped and ran to some rebel fighters, hoping they'd protect him.

 

"They brought me here," he said, adding that he'd received no medical care in the six days since his arrest.

 

"They believe that most of the black in Libya are mercenaries, so now all the blacks on the street, they pick them up," he said.

 

No evidence of abuse. Nah. But then I did not say it said there was. My little quip about Guard Dog news sources should have pretty well indicated the following comment was not to be regarded as serious commentary. If you have ever read The Onion you would recognize devices like that.

 

Now in all seriousness, if tomorrow you were to read the rebels excecuted every black prisioner would that actually surprise you? The problem with so much of the middle east these days is there are no "good guys". Just different variaties of bad. That is not true everywhere obviously, but it is true for much of it.

[213374U]

Wrong. (as usual)

 

Funny how the rebels merely "suspect" those blacks of being pro-Q mercenaries -though apparently mere suspicion is enough to get you a bullet to the back of the skull in brave new Libya- yet you can give us assurances that they were. How's the weather inside your colon?

 

edit: as for the "no racism" idiocy: http://online.wsj.com/article/SB1000142405...3328336026.html

Edited September 5, 2011 by 213374U

[Oblarg]

Now in all seriousness, if tomorrow you were to read the rebels excecuted every black prisioner would that actually surprise you? The problem with so much of the middle east these days is there are no "good guys". Just different variaties of bad. That is not true everywhere obviously, but it is true for much of it.

 

Honestly? No, I wouldn't be that shocked, but of all the faults of Barack Obama I'd hardly say the Libyan situation ranks particularly high among them. Do you honestly think many other presidential candidates would have done differently? Or, even if they had, would the different negative consequences of their choices be any less their fault?

 

I still think it's too early to pass judgment on the wisdom of military action in Libya. I certainly don't pretend to know what the "proper" course of action would have been - it's an extremely nontrivial situation.

[Walsingham]

Wrong. (as usual)

 

Funny how the rebels merely "suspect" those blacks of being pro-Q mercenaries -though apparently mere suspicion is enough to get you a bullet to the back of the skull in brave new Libya- yet you can give us assurances that they were. How's the weather inside your colon?

 

edit: as for the "no racism" idiocy: http://online.wsj.com/article/SB1000142405...3328336026.html

 

Interesting thought. I wonder if much of the atrocity tendency in unregulated troops comes as much from the unchecked spread of stories about atrocities from the opposite side? Not suggesting for a second that it's not mostly do with a lack of regular discipline and punishment.

 

I say again that I'd be extremely cautious before saying that what we're seeing isn't down to the fact that these are volunteer militias rather than Libyan volunteer militias.

[Guard Dog]

Now in all seriousness, if tomorrow you were to read the rebels excecuted every black prisioner would that actually surprise you? The problem with so much of the middle east these days is there are no "good guys". Just different variaties of bad. That is not true everywhere obviously, but it is true for much of it.

 

Honestly? No, I wouldn't be that shocked, but of all the faults of Barack Obama I'd hardly say the Libyan situation ranks particularly high among them. Do you honestly think many other presidential candidates would have done differently? Or, even if they had, would the different negative consequences of their choices be any less their fault?

 

I still think it's too early to pass judgment on the wisdom of military action in Libya. I certainly don't pretend to know what the "proper" course of action would have been - it's an extremely nontrivial situation.

No I don't actually blame Obama for anything that happened in Libya, other than our involvement in it. But it was his call and he made it and thats that. I suspect McCain would also have dove in head first beacuse:

 

1) The probabilities of success were high

2) The possibilities of US casualties were low

3) The cost relative to Iraq and Afghanistan were minimal.

 

In other words it's the perfect war for the politician who wants to be seen as "doing something". I do not like the idea of involving US troops in foreign entanglements for nebulous goals. I was also opposed to invading Iraq and actually voted against GWB in 2004 because of it. Obama and his national security team decided that since Q was a known supporter of terrorisim anything else must be better. We'll find out in the years to come it that is true. If the new regime does go on some genocidal killing spree then it would have happened anyway but at least we would be able to say we had no part in making it happen.

 

My previous comments were a little satirical sarcasm that Wals did not get and Krezzie, well he's just so anxious to shout down anyone whose world view does not agree with his he probably did not even read.

[Walsingham]

Sorry, GD. Not having a go. Didn't catch your 'tone' so to speak.

[Walsingham]

It gives me no joy to relate, but the finding sof the inquiry into the death of Baha Moussa (an Iraqi) in British custody have found http://www.bbc.co.uk/news/uk-14825889 that it was the result of banned interrogation techniques and 'corporate failure' by the British Army.

 

I mention this partly to underscore that I do not dodge the truth. And also to highlight the standard by which we might do well to judge the actions of the unregulated Libyan militias.

[213374U]

http://online.wsj.com/article/SB1000142405...=world_newsreel

 

Airstrikes NATO plz!

 

 

And also to highlight the standard by which we might do well to judge the actions of the unregulated Libyan militias.

Good luck with that. And also, good luck with getting the colonel ultimately responsible for the unit under whose care the poor bastard died to answer for it before a court-martial. Not even platoon commanders were tried... heh.

 

We simply don't much care what happens to them towelheads and monkeys, and it's high time we admitted it.

Edited September 13, 2011 by 213374U

[Orogun01]

And also to highlight the standard by which we might do well to judge the actions of the unregulated Libyan militias.

Good luck with that. And also, good luck with getting the colonel ultimately responsible for the unit under whose care the poor bastard died to answer for it before a court-martial. Not even platoon commanders were tried... heh.

 

We simply don't much care what happens to them towelheads and monkeys, and it's high time we admitted it.

Lately the government or the corporations (whomever is to blame) has done an excellent job of regulating what news comes out of the middle east and lose whatever is reported in a sea of half facts and vagueness. They have been so successful at it that military efforts in the region has been dubbed "the secret war" and even the big scandals like the abuses/war crimes have not been treated as they should.

 

Now this could be an equal parts effort to keep bad news from hurting the war effort and a disinterest by reporters to cover the war. But either way nobody home is actually getting all the facts, and even less people are getting riled over them. This coming all the way from 2004 when the early scandals of war crimes reached the news.

Edited September 13, 2011 by Orogun01