Libya

[obyknven]

Speech of Dr Mousa Ibrahim to the press. 23-8-2011

 

Key points of speech.

 

1.As you saw Libyan people resist and fight for they beloved Tripoli , the capital of Libya.

 

2.Libyan channel broadcasting equipement was bombedand also the radio broadcasting equipment.

 

3.Leader is safe and his sons are safe and all the leaders of Libya are safe (he refers to tribal leaders and army leaders and ministers). Leader and son of the leader are leading the armed struggle.

 

4.we fight in both fronts in the military front and we also fight to meet the citizens daily needs , because the armed gangs are making people life difficult.

 

5.We want to pay tribute to the brave youth moujahedeen of Tarhouna,Bani walid,and zliten and al maghraga and zliten and sebha and five points and... ( sorry the translator didnt worte all the names of the tribes contributed) , that came to defent their capital and helped Libyan army to restore the control of the city.

 

6.Situation of Tripoli is under control. 80 per cent of Tripoli is firmly controled ( meaning other 20 per cent is control but clashes in some places ).

 

7. We thank the people of tripoli that took controled and secured their neibourhouds in order no armed gang will penetrate for example Abu Saleem.

 

8.The situation in Tripoli will be back to normal in 3-4 days max.

 

9.We urge the people of Tripoli to come out of their homes and confort the armed gangs that ther only purpose is to loot and they have complete lack of organization.

 

10.Last night and today a big number of armed gangs was killed and this makes me sad because they are Libyans but they choose their way. They betraye Libya and they killed the Libyan people while Sarkozy and emir of qatar and obama are in ther riches and safety outside Libya.

 

11.When we refer to Crusaders we dont mean cristians in general. we refer to the rasist people that are after the riches of Libya and although they defeated they didnt want dialogue but they wanted to destroy Libya.

[Gorgon]

Why is that of any interest ?

[Drowsy Emperor]

They don't have his son though, and fighting's still going on in Tripoli. Why are these rebels the good guys anyway ?

Because we say so

 

Never mind that they are not a uniform faction and led by former military personel, most likely looking to replace the current regime with a new, similar one, just with different names on the business cards.

 

To hold this belief is essentially denying history.

 

No, its called common sense.

 

But whatever, none are so blind as those who refuse to see.

[Hildegard]

And for the love of all that is good and holy can we PLEASE stop this sophomoronic "it's the oil, stupid" one dimensional bull****? Of course oil is involved, but it's facile and childish to say 'oil' and say that explains each and every dynamic. Put some effort in, FFS.

 

It isn't childish at all, it's that simple. After the war in Iraq just another conflict for resources led by the modern age powers on the pretext of human rights, freedom, beacon of democracy and all other one dimensional bull**** they sell to the public so they can put their conscience at ease that everything is transparent, clean and justifiable. And if you see it otherwise please put an effort in it and care to explain to me how and why it is different.

Edited August 23, 2011 by Hildegard

[Drowsy Emperor]

So in your mind NATO main purpose its to protect the interests of the west and that is bad how? Last I checked we are all from the west and at the risk of sounding cynical we haven't traded down on our standard of living to help a random stranger.

 

The revolt was going to end with a clear winner, throwing your lot with them its a proactive way to secure an alliance. Standing by and ignoring the issue hoping that whomever comes out on top its a rational person that will maintain trade its wishfull at best. Plus with Chavez converting to "Castrorism" the US has very few sources in which to rely for a steady income, not to mention the strain on an already fragile economy. It may not look it but the western allies are acting out of desperate self-preservation.

 

Gifted was asking and he got an answer, I wasn't really judging either way, just pointing out what NATO is in my opinion. I'm in a no man's land on the issue, NATO [uS] having decided to support every pro-islamic, anti-Serb element possible, contrary to its own long term interests and against a country that was decidedly pro western and would have been a steadfast ally.

 

The notion that the revolt was going to end with a clear winner and that its going to be the rebels has no grounding in fact. It only became obvious when the west declared its support for the rebels, because that would mean it would go as far as necessary for them to win the war and to most of us that follow international relations its also a signal that the west was actively involved in the preparatory stages of the revolt. The visits of the soon to be revolutionaries to France, before the revolt broke out strongly suggest this.

[Walsingham]

And for the love of all that is good and holy can we PLEASE stop this sophomoronic "it's the oil, stupid" one dimensional bull****? Of course oil is involved, but it's facile and childish to say 'oil' and say that explains each and every dynamic. Put some effort in, FFS.

 

It isn't childish at all, it's that simple. After the war in Iraq just another conflict for resources led by the modern age powers on the pretext of human rights, freedom, beacon of democracy and all other one dimensional bull**** they sell to the public so they can put their conscience at ease that everything is transparent, clean and justifiable. And if you see it otherwise please put an effort in it and care to explain to me how and why it is different.

 

I am inclined to do so. but I haevn't time today. Perhaps in a another thread, next week? Same bat channel?

 

~~

 

Drowsy, your line of reasoning doesn't hold together for me. yes, it's US saying THEY are the bad guys. But in so far as 'bad' is a useful term at all surely we are entitled to say this?

 

Unless the confusion is arising from your apparent affection for authoritarian states ruling by violence.

[Hildegard]

I am inclined to do so. but I haevn't time today. Perhaps in a another thread, next week? Same bat channel?

 

Great! Toodles!

[Drowsy Emperor]

Drowsy, your line of reasoning doesn't hold together for me. yes, it's US saying THEY are the bad guys. But in so far as 'bad' is a useful term at all surely we are entitled to say this?

 

Unless the confusion is arising from your apparent affection for authoritarian states ruling by violence.

 

Who is the bad guy, Q? Who exactly are you talking about?

 

You can point a finger and find a "bad guy" but you'll be hard pressed to find a "good guy" by your standards. The rebels are the product of the same political and cultural environment that created Q, how can they be the good guys? Its not like they're a grass roots movement, most of them have been part of the ruling elite one way or the other. All middle eastern states are authoritarian, its the way that world works.

 

Do you think they're crying for democracy, or for the opportunity to be the next king?

You'd expect more popular support for a supposedly democratic movemnt, no?

Edited August 23, 2011 by Drowsy Emperor

[obyknven]

Al Fatah

#Libya Breaking News: A reliable phn call source : Sooq Al-Joma & Tajoora area R under control & 34 rats wr captured. The army is monitoring the area Sooq Al-Joma & green flags R flying on all houses. Allah Akbar. The news is 100% confirmed & we will update U w/ more l8r on Tajoora

 

L?we Der W?ste

phone call with my Brother and my uncle in Tripoli they were in Bou sleem, and now joined the volunteers forces, they told me that the situation under control our brave army and the Tribal forces and many of Insurgents (mercenaries and Alqaida)were killed or captured, Souq aljumaa, Ain Zara and Salah al-Din are clear from the insurgents and before 3 hours a thousands of our soldiers and our tribal volunteers headed towards the Tajoura to clear it from the insurgents and traitors.

 

Mary Arnoult

Lizzie Phelan, independent journalist: "I have now from RELIABLE sources that the Libyan army is still in control of Tripoli. Al Jazeera footage of Green Sq was FAKE. Gaddafi went to Green Sq with one of his sons. Things much calmer now. More info soon. ? L.P."

 

اسكندر بيك

People of Tripoli is protecting the city , don't believe false News , Libya channel isn't working because of NATO Technique , Communication is bad , but people in Tripoli is ready to those rats anytimes , Volunteers fulling the city . and we are preparing for Millions March again .

 

Libya Liberal Youth to publish the facts for Libya tomorrow

Saadi Al gaddafi just arrived to Tripoli with 1600 fighters from bani walid and 3000 from Tarhouna tribe.

 

Dav Albert

Dr . Yousef Shakeer talking in radio Bani Walid.!!

He firstly thanked the bani walid tribe that sent 20 thousand vollounteers last night to purge Tripoli.

As stated before, Dr shakeer said that the rats falsly claied that they captured him but this only in their dreams !

 

Mary Arnoult

The youth of Abou Saleem area are all out in Tripoli -they are killling all the armed gangs in the way with no mercy.

[Lexx]

So did they or did they not captured Tripoli? And if not, why would they claim that they have? To break resistance in other locations?

[obyknven]

Not captured.

 

[Morgoth]

5 months fighting and the guy still isn't expelled. That's some quality work there, NATO. Could as well dissolve this obsolete organization.

 

Meanwhile, Gaddaffi and allies are already planning a dirty bomb attack on Paris or London.

 

I will make sure to have the popcorn ready.

[Lexx]

But every german news site reports with "live ticker" 'n stuff that the rebels are very close with taking Tripoli.

[obyknven]

But every german news site reports with "live ticker" 'n stuff that the rebels are very close with taking Tripoli.

Brainwashing

http://www.youtube.com/user/myducksvision#p/u/49/ECCsF9y0UhE

[Morgoth]

German newspapers = Lawlipop journalism.

 

That guy ain't gonna down without a bang I say.

[Moose]

It makes the revolution look more legit, and diminishes our responsibility to help clean up afterwards taking the long soft approach. Don't worry, I'm sure your genuine concern for their struggle is unwarranted. Eventually Gaddafi will be expelled and you'll get that solid night of sleep you've been clearly yearning for.

[Morgoth]

Honestly speaking, I don't give a damn what is happening in Lybia. Or any other country. It doesn't affect me at all.

[Malcador]

5 months fighting and the guy still isn't expelled. That's some quality work there, NATO. Could as well dissolve this obsolete organization.

 

Meanwhile, Gaddaffi and allies are already planning a dirty bomb attack on Paris or London.

 

I will make sure to have the popcorn ready.

 

They should hit Vienna. In any event, do you see the full weight of NATO being applied ? NATO regiments on the ground ? If not, well your claim for dissolution is bunk.

 

Also it's LIBYA

[Morgoth]

They should hit Vienna.

This would be a dream come true!

[Drowsy Emperor]

They should hit Vienna.

This would be a dream come true!

 

I know a few good shops for tabletop RPGs in Vienna, at least let me raid them first.

[Enoch]

Again, "because" is too strong a word. Any movement large enough to threaten the stability of a country has a lot of different members. There are certainly Libyan patriots, democratic idealists, and people justifiably angered by the wrongs committed by the Q regime involved along with the more practical tribal patriarchs, and these patriarchs would probably have a tough time getting any revolution off the ground if their followers weren't inspired by the story of Tunisia and Egypt and the prospect of that happening for Libya.

 

But it's also these practical people who line up the money needed for an armed conflict before they truly cast their lot in with it. And there's plenty of evidence that these would-be revolutionaries had contact with folks at places like Total and Eni. And these petroleum-company bigwigs are not stupid-- they're not going to sign on to support a movement unless they're pretty sure it has a reasonable chance of success. Also, beyond the simple influence of powerful oil companies, European governments themselves are susceptible to problems with petroleum supplies-- it seems like every other year, there's some trucker strike that paralyzes all economic activity in France, often driven by the price of fuel. France and Italy are particularly dependent on Libyan oil. Libyan crude oil is quite light, and French and Italian refineries can't really handle heavier crude without expensive retrofitting.

 

So you have a situation where major NATO member states (with economies already in precarious positions) see an armed insurrection in a supplier state on which they are heavily dependent, funded largely by speculative contracts with their own domestic petroleum companies, striving to overthrow a capricious autocrat who they've tolerated but never been particularly happy with. And that armed insurrection is publicly rallying on a pro-democracy theme that makes for great PR and headlines across the world. The moment that autocrat signaled that he was willing to seriously jeopardize the country's oil infrastructure in order to hold onto power (and, yes, of course the rebels were baiting Qaddafi into hitting the refineries/pipelines/etc. Wouldn't you?), they got the rest of NATO on-board with helping the rebels out.

 

This can be (and probably is) both a hopeful story about freeing a country from a pretty brutal autocrat and a cynical story about an opportunistic play for control of a valuable resource. And there's nothing inconsistent about that-- the world is a complicated place.

[213374U]

the world is a complicated place.

MSNBC disagrees.

 

Great summary, though.

[Walsingham]

Honestly speaking, I don't give a damn what is happening in Lybia. Or any other country. It doesn't affect me at all.

 

My kingdom for a frying pan.

[Gorgon]

On the whole I'm quite pleased that the EU and NATO were able to act at all, although it could perhaps have gone faster and smoother with boots on the ground. If we set a precedent that you can't commit massacres or ethnic cleansing within our sphere of interest, or we will come and free the hell out of your people... What's the downside.

[Drowsy Emperor]

Yes, because there were so many massacres and so much ethnic cleansing in this conflict.