The Iraq war was a disgrace, but sometimes we forget just how much

[I want teh kotor 3]

"The nationalist not only does not disapprove of atrocities committed by his own side, but he has a remarkable capacity for not even hearing about them. "

- Eric Blair (AKA George Orwell)

 

This does appear to be a good motto for yourself. Bravo!

 

:lol: :lol: :lol: :lol:

 

When has LoF ever flat-out denied an atrocity by communist Russia, or refused to believe the the atrocity was bad? No, really, I'm curious - I've seen him rationalize atrocities, sure, but never deny them.

 

I never said I agreed, just that I found it funny. Also, he definitely meets the first portion.

[lord of flies]

Also, he definitely meets the first portion.

I believe that the Great Purge was a bad thing, for one. Saying that the crimes of the Stalin administration must be put in their historical context - that the nation was less than 10 years away from the most brutal war in human history coming to literally murder the entire populace of the country - is not the same as calling them right. With the power of hindsight, I can say that X or Y decision could have been performed more rationally and more justly, but at the time things were not so clear.

[Humodour]

You know what really gives me the warm and fuzzies over this though? And it's got nothing to do with Iraq.

 

It's Chinese dissidents deciding to build their own leaks website to document Chinese government abuses. Now that is going to be powerful.

 

Although I have to question the Chinese founder's choice of pseudonym... they call him 'Deep Throat'.

 

http://www.google.com/hostednews/afp/artic...04851f6b44a.ad1

 

I was talking to a Chinese immigrant lately. He lives in Canada now, but he moved from China to Australia originally. Then he left Australia because, his words, "Australia's worse than China".

 

I find it quite scary to hear that from someone who has lived in both places for many years. Maybe the western world needs to stop trying to save the poor asians everywhere and fix their own deep **** first.

 

Patently untrue and I would call the guy a bloody **** unless there's some aspect of this story you failed to supply (such as him speaking specifically about cultural attitudes - I can understand why some Asians find it very difficult to adapt to our social norms and personalities - I deal with international students daily at my work).

 

No, I'm not sorry for saying that. Anybody who can visit Australia (one of the top 5 most developed countries in the world) and say with a straight face "it's worse than China" is out-right lying.

 

You're from Canada, so you pretty much know what living in Australia is like by proxy. I think the main difference is you guys say "eh" more than we say "mate".

 

The Chinese LOVE China. They are very nationalistic. I have no problem with them loving China but it always ends up being a case of "China is the best country in the world". Yeah right mate, dream on.

 

Edit: Unless the guy was talking about life in Australia from the perspective of indigenous Australians - this is one glaring gap in Australia's human rights record which we are only just making headway into eliminating.

Edited October 26, 2010 by Krezack

[Humodour]

I'm not really supportive of the Iraq war, but it's important to keep in mind that Hussein was a major douche. He was really asking for it.

 

I continue to remain open to somebody prosecuting a case in support of a peacekeeping mission to remove a dictator and institute democracy and civil law in a country. As long as such a mission upholds international human rights and does not involve war crimes from the West. I can certainly name some places in the world where I feel the West SHOULD intervene, but until I see evidence the West can do that ethically I can't support any such move.

[Blarghagh]

I don't live in Canada?

[alanschu]

When has LoF ever flat-out denied an atrocity by communist Russia, or refused to believe the the atrocity was bad? No, really, I'm curious - I've seen him rationalize atrocities, sure, but never deny them.

 

One time he said that the North Korean solution of literally nailing refugees together (like driving a metal spike through their skin since it's so malleable) wasn't an atrocity but rather a demonstration of resourceful thinking from a progressive society.

 

 

While not relating directly to an atrocity denial/rationalization, my favourite was still him getting pissy because people mourned Michael Jackson's death while kids died Coltan farming so we could have our precious cell phones, while insisting that the coltan in my computer equipment comes from the 0.5% world supply that they provide, while assuring us that he never buys his computer equipment new, and the used components that he buys does not contribute to the world supply of Coltan usage without realizing that him buying used goods enables others to purchase new goods.

 

This was shortly after he joined the boards and it'll always stick out for me. For the most part he's been good for a laugh ever since.

[Monte Carlo]

What do you mean that the Iraq War "was" a disgrace?

Or perhaps you'll decide never to fight wars, whereupon you will be conquered.

I am definitely worried about the oncoming invasion of the United States by Iraq. :roll:

Am looking forward, with alacrity, to the day wikileaks finds a whistleblower from, say, the Iranian Revolutionary Guard.

"The nationalist not only does not disapprove of atrocities committed by his own side, but he has a remarkable capacity for not even hearing about them. "

- Eric Blair (AKA George Orwell)

 

There's an Orwell quote for every occasion! Suffice it to say he would have been steadfastly against the type of politics you espouse.

[Walsingham]

"The nationalist not only does not disapprove of atrocities committed by his own side, but he has a remarkable capacity for not even hearing about them. "

- Eric Blair (AKA George Orwell)

 

This does appear to be a good motto for yourself. Bravo!

 

:lol: :lol: :lol: :lol:

 

When has LoF ever flat-out denied an atrocity by communist Russia, or refused to believe the the atrocity was bad? No, really, I'm curious - I've seen him rationalize atrocities, sure, but never deny them.

 

You ask him about the Ukraine famine and see what happens.

[Thorton_AP]

Sound economical planning?

[lord of flies]

There's an Orwell quote for every occasion! Suffice it to say he would have been steadfastly against the type of politics you espouse.

Actually, Orwell was a leftie who fought alongside anarchists during the Spanish Civil War and the only reason he didn't join the International Brigades is because the Communists badmouthed the POUM. So he would have been steadfastly against the type of politics you espouse.

You ask him about the Ukraine famine and see what happens.

I've spoken about it before. The 32-33 Ukrainian famine was not a genocide, since it lacked intent, and the related policies (collectivization) were a central part of the defeat of the Nazi menace, a far greater brutality.

[Zoraptor]

Technically GO did fight for the communists (POUM militia = militia of the Partit Obrer d'Unificacio Marxista). They were just the wrong type of communists for Stalin. The great irony being that he was simultaneously fighting for and against communism at one point.

[Monte Carlo]

Orwell was left-wing but not of it. And he came to despise Iron Curtain era totalitarianism. FWIW lots of Englishmen fought in the Spanish Civil War for a variety of reasons, some of them even fought for Franco.

 

I doubt I would have agreed with Orwell on too much politically, but he's one of the most important writers and thinkers of his generation. I would reiterate that he would find LotF's views repugnant, but then again lefties attacking other lefties is part of what makes them so much fun (q.v. The Spanish Civil War).

[Walsingham]

We've been over LoF so many times it is unutterably boring. I don't think his lunacy merits derailing yet another thread.

 

Back on topic...

 

Krez, I share your anger about torture, even condoned torture. I think I've been pretty clear on that. But your anger here is inconsistent. Hussein's Iraq was predicated on mass torture and unending terror. Do you consider that to have been OK? If not Ok what would you have done differently to end it? If you couldn't end it - as US officials felt they couldn't in many cases cited in wikileaks - then are YOU not complicit in it by the same rationale?

[Oblarg]

Orwell was left-wing but not of it. And he came to despise Iron Curtain era totalitarianism. FWIW lots of Englishmen fought in the Spanish Civil War for a variety of reasons, some of them even fought for Franco.

 

I doubt I would have agreed with Orwell on too much politically, but he's one of the most important writers and thinkers of his generation. I would reiterate that he would find LotF's views repugnant, but then again lefties attacking other lefties is part of what makes them so much fun (q.v. The Spanish Civil War).

 

Thinking "lefty" is a meaningful political description is even more hilarious.

[Thorton_AP]

The 32-33 Ukrainian famine was not a genocide, since it lacked intent, and the related policies (collectivization) were a central part of the defeat of the Nazi menace, a far greater brutality.

 

The Ukraine famine was a part of the plan to fight the Nazi menace?

 

 

EDIT: A quick read of the Ukraine Famine indicates that it's probably a great example of LoF denying an atrocity. You just did it right now XD

Edited October 27, 2010 by Thorton_AP

[Monte Carlo]

Orwell was left-wing but not of it. And he came to despise Iron Curtain era totalitarianism. FWIW lots of Englishmen fought in the Spanish Civil War for a variety of reasons, some of them even fought for Franco.

 

I doubt I would have agreed with Orwell on too much politically, but he's one of the most important writers and thinkers of his generation. I would reiterate that he would find LotF's views repugnant, but then again lefties attacking other lefties is part of what makes them so much fun (q.v. The Spanish Civil War).

 

Thinking "lefty" is a meaningful political description is even more hilarious.

 

It is. You are just being a churl.

[Zoraptor]

The 32-33 Ukrainian famine was not a genocide, since it lacked intent, and the related policies (collectivization) were a central part of the defeat of the Nazi menace, a far greater brutality.

EDIT: A quick read of the Ukraine Famine indicates that it's probably a great example of LoF denying an atrocity. You just did it right now XD

Not read on wikipedia I hope. Their article was (and it seems, still is) of simply dreadful quality.

[~Di]

Well, it hasn't taken long for Wikileaks documents to spark the taking of lives. http://www.newsweek.com/2010/08/02/taliban...-wikileaks.html

 

Taliban Seeks Vengeance in Wake of WikiLeaks

Leaked U.S. Intel documents listed the names and villages of Afghan collaborators

[Thorton_AP]

The 32-33 Ukrainian famine was not a genocide, since it lacked intent, and the related policies (collectivization) were a central part of the defeat of the Nazi menace, a far greater brutality.

EDIT: A quick read of the Ukraine Famine indicates that it's probably a great example of LoF denying an atrocity. You just did it right now XD

Not read on wikipedia I hope. Their article was (and it seems, still is) of simply dreadful quality.

 

LOL to be fair mine was likely not awesome either:

 

http://www.ibiblio.org/expo/soviet.exhibit/famine.html

[Humodour]

Orwell was left-wing but not of it. And he came to despise Iron Curtain era totalitarianism. FWIW lots of Englishmen fought in the Spanish Civil War for a variety of reasons, some of them even fought for Franco.

 

I doubt I would have agreed with Orwell on too much politically, but he's one of the most important writers and thinkers of his generation. I would reiterate that he would find LotF's views repugnant, but then again lefties attacking other lefties is part of what makes them so much fun (q.v. The Spanish Civil War).

 

Thinking "lefty" is a meaningful political description is even more hilarious.

 

Agreed!

 

Monte's use of the term is obnoxious and designed to insult, but he's spot on about Orwell.

Edited October 28, 2010 by Krezack

[Humodour]

Well, it hasn't taken long for Wikileaks documents to spark the taking of lives. http://www.newsweek.com/2010/08/02/taliban...-wikileaks.html

 

Taliban Seeks Vengeance in Wake of WikiLeaks

Leaked U.S. Intel documents listed the names and villages of Afghan collaborators

[Calax]

Didn't we go over di's argument back when it was in a current part of newsweek... 2 months ago?

[Zoraptor]

Well, it hasn't taken long for Wikileaks documents to spark the taking of lives. http://www.newsweek.com/2010/08/02/taliban...-wikileaks.html

 

Taliban Seeks Vengeance in Wake of WikiLeaks

Leaked U.S. Intel documents listed the names and villages of Afghan collaborators

[~Di]

Didn't we go over di's argument back when it was in a current part of newsweek... 2 months ago?

 

Yeah, because it doesn't friggin' matter if Afgani's are dying because of the leaks posted on the web. It only matters that Americans are brutal ****, and Di in particular is a Fox News Junkie, even though she hasn't seen more than six minutes of Fox News in the past five years. She isn't a European, she isn't an Australian, so she must be some kind of right-wing nutcase, despite the fact that she hasn't voted republican in a decade and is an avowed atheist. And God forbid she post an opinion on this forum, because everyone knows that as an American female she must be a dedicated right-winger, despite the fact that she has spent the past decade railing against the illegal preemptive invasion of Iraq as an illegal war based upon lies and deceit. She is Di... she is American, she is a female... therefore, she must be a brain-washed idiot.

 

Your condescending insult of people with your stereotypes and pompous superiority complex because they aren't YOU, aren't from your so-very-perfect societies, make me glad that although I live in an imperfect country with a government I frequently disagree with, at least I don't live in a country that ignores its imperfections in order to scapegoat others to make myself feel important in a world where I know that I don't really matter. What a cruel bunch of xenophobic bullies you are. I'm actually sorry that the internet came to exist. Before that happened, I actually thought that I liked Australians and western Europeans because I didn't know what self-indulgent blame-mongering pricks they were. I have now been enlightened.

[Humodour]

Didn't we go over di's argument back when it was in a current part of newsweek... 2 months ago?

 

Yeah, because it doesn't friggin' matter if Afgani's are dying because of the leaks posted on the web. It only matters that Americans are brutal ****, and Di in particular is a Fox News Junkie, even though she hasn't seen more than six minutes of Fox News in the past five years. She isn't a European, she isn't an Australian, so she must be some kind of right-wing nutcase, despite the fact that she hasn't voted republican in a decade and is an avowed atheist. And God forbid she post an opinion on this forum, because everyone knows that as an American female she must be a dedicated right-winger, despite the fact that she has spent the past decade railing against the illegal preemptive invasion of Iraq as an illegal war based upon lies and deceit. She is Di... she is American, she is a female... therefore, she must be a brain-washed idiot.

 

Your condescending insult of people with your stereotypes and pompous superiority complex because they aren't YOU, aren't from your so-very-perfect societies, make me glad that although I live in an imperfect country with a government I frequently disagree with, at least I don't live in a country that ignores its imperfections in order to scapegoat others to make myself feel important in a world where I know that I don't really matter. What a cruel bunch of xenophobic bullies you are. I'm actually sorry that the internet came to exist. Before that happened, I actually thought that I liked Australians and western Europeans because I didn't know what self-indulgent blame-mongering pricks they were. I have now been enlightened.

 

Um. Unless you're a neo-con, I think you've got the wrong impression. I certainly haven't said anything bad about you in this thread?

 

Not to mention that, touching on the final part of your post, I hardly think you can now say you think all Europeans and Australians are dislikeable pricks just because you didn't like what some guys posted on a message board. Even if I were actually a prick, I'm 1 Aussie out of 22 million - is that really enough data for you to start making assumptions about Australians?