Poll suggests 1 in 5 Americans cannot make simple factual assessments

[Volourn]

So.. what you do think he said that was misquoted? How does one twist oen thing into any of the above? 'Cause that would be an awesome twist job if I could actuially believe you.

 

P.S. I believe they have the legal right to build the mosque on private property, but I do have to say the motivation is very suspect. I can just imagine the reaction if a Christian pyscho had destroyed something tied to Islam and then even a well meaning Christian group came by wanting to build a church.

 

While it is true that it is not fair to blame all muslims for 9/11, it is a fact that hardcore Muslim extremists perpetrated the attacked based on their religious believes against a 'Christian' government and choosing to build a (pseduo) Mosque on or near the property is definitely an act of disrespecting the victims (even thoguh not all victims of 9/11 were actually Christians obviously).

 

Is it REALLY that important to have a mosque there? Espicially when there are mosques not that far away (but, hey, one needs to be able to step out of the office and right to where you are going).

[Hurlshort]

One of Rauf's major goals for the US is to reduce the threat of terrorism by altering its Middle Eastern foreign policy. Here is an example of a quote given when he was asked directly if the US deserved 9/11:

 

"I wouldn

[Volourn]

"I wouldn

Edited August 21, 2010 by Volourn

[Krookie]

L0L0L0LLIPOP

 

I've come to the conclusion that you are simply an attention whore

[Orogun01]

L0L0L0LLIPOP

 

I've come to the conclusion that you are simply an attention whore

[GreasyDogMeat]

Don't forget such wonderful peaceful gems like 'Because we have been accessory to a lot of innocent lives dying in the world. In fact, in the most direct sense, Osama bin Laden is made in the USA.'

 

Yeah, poor old Al-Qaida was just pushed and pushed 'till it had to act.

 

John Bolton on Obama's The State Department & Rauf:

The State Department has no responsibility to send fruitcakes around as if they are representatives of America," says former United Nations Ambassador John Bolton, who told Fox News that Imam Rauf should be dumped from the trip and that the State Department should investigate how he was included in the first place. "Many of his statements support terrorism in effect. He has blamed terrorism on frustration and said it causes people to 'conflagrate,' a new word that he has apparently invented. That is the classic justification for radical terrorism. It is unacceptable to the overwhelming majority of American people and really civilized people around the world."

[mkreku]

Yeah, poor old Al-Qaida was just pushed and pushed 'till it had to act.

That is how all wars are started.

[Hurlshort]

There is a very large difference between criticizing the US and criticizing US foreign policy.

 

Just look at the history of Afghanistan, the US has created two problem for every one they have solved there. Look, I'm not saying any of this is intentional, I think the US typically has good intentions when it comes to foreign policy. But there is a major disconnect here.

 

Since Osama was brought up, I think it is safe to say we all can agree he is an evil guy. But when did he become evil? Was it before or after he received US support in the Soviet Afghanistan war? What about the war in Kuwait? Could we have done something differently there? We need to answer these questions so we can try and prevent this from happening again.

 

The US has made it easy to stoke fear in the hearts of less-educated Muslims. We had a diplomat from the State department speak in our classroom last year, and he said his biggest job is just correcting the misinformation that is spread about the US. Children in Iran are raised under the beliefs that Islam is illegal in the US, that someone caught praying will be stoned to death. It sounds crazy, but then you have the very real images of US forces rolling into Iraq and Afghanistan. It doesn't matter that the US intentions are good, what matters is how a radical can spin those images to create fear in others. Now we've got protests against a Muslim community center that has legally obtained funding and building permits. This is not a way to create bridges. It is a stupid protest that will only add fuel to the fire.

[Walsingham]

I agree with Hurlshot. This merely stokes the conflict which AlQ actually prays for every day. As does every single occasion when ordinary Muslims are confused with the wannabe fascist a-holes who are committing acts of terror in their name.

 

Refusing to confuse the two things isn't simply 'nice', it is a grain of sand weighed in the balance against the ****ers. Which you'd think would appeal to any true patriot.

[Guard Dog]

Let's remember here, no one is disputing their right to build the mosque. Many folks just don't want to see a seven story monument to islam built right where 3000 innocent people were murdered in the name of islam. I would remind you all tht Rauf has refused to denounce that act too. This is not about building bridges, it's a middle finger in the face.

For all of that I still say let them build it. A seven story mosque next to two empty holes where two of our proudest buildings once stood speaks volums about the idiotd running this country into the ground.

[Hurlshort]

The Koran doesn't say anything about killing innocents in the name of Islam. Rauf has consistently denounced radical Islam and terrorism as well. Are you looking at his actual words when you make these determinations, or are you taking other people's interpretations as the truth? Because you are a smart guy, and if you are looking at the primary sources here, I have a hard time believing you would have those opinions of Rauf.

[Guard Dog]

The Koran doesn't say anything about killing innocents in the name of Islam. Rauf has consistently denounced radical Islam and terrorism as well. Are you looking at his actual words when you make these determinations, or are you taking other people's interpretations as the truth? Because you are a smart guy, and if you are looking at the primary sources here, I have a hard time believing you would have those opinions of Rauf.

Rauf has stated that islam does not condone murdering innocents ( a fact I can easily dispute by linking verses from te Koran), but in an interview wit ABC news this morning some months ago he flatly rufused to call Hamas a terrorist organization and while he could not condone Al-Quedas actions on 9-11, he could not condemn them either. I have a link to that video save on my PC at home. I'll link it up when I get home tomorrow, I'm in New Orleans today.

 

No oneis dsiputing their right to put it where they want, but putting it there is just deliberately provacative. I am astounded how many people are willfully refusing to see that. And I am also appaled that everyone is bending over backwards to see this done but are utterly mute on NY telling the Greek Orthodox chruch to get lost.

 

Also, we are coming up one nine years since 9-11, and to date, not one brick has been laide to rebuild. Don't you find that strange? Persoanlly I can't wait to see this grand seven story triute to the glories of Islam with it's minarets gleaming in the sun casting it's shadow over the place where 3000 people dies. I hope the brocast the call to prayer loud enough to be heard all hrough lower Manhatten.

 

If Rauf and his ilk had any class what so ever they would respect the sentiments of his fellow New Yorkers and at least discussed moving it elsewhere. He has refused to even meet with the governor over that. He's making a point Hurlshot.

[Wrath of Dagon]

Actually there is no right to build a mosque anywhere he wants. For example, if an area is zoned residential, no one can build a mosque or a church there. And there should be no right to build a mosque on the sacred ground where thousands of Americans were murdered by Islamists in the name of Islam. Here's another choice quote from the peace loving Rauf:

 

[Volourn]

GD is 100% correct. on what he posted.

 

And, blaming the victim of 9/11 is pathetic. Anyone who doesn't flat out condemn the punks who commited 9/11 are plain old fashion garbage.

 

 

WOD: Accoridng to those quotes, if they're accurate, the guy sound slike he wants a war. Not exactly the peaceloving hippies his supports claim.

Edited August 21, 2010 by Volourn

[ShadySands]

Again, it's not at ground zero and you can't even see one from the other. If it were at ground zero then I would have a problem with it too but it's not.

 

Also, it's supposed to be an Islamic Community Center, like a JCC or YMCA and not just a mosque.

[Hurlshort]

Uh, those quotes don't say anything about war Volourn.

 

About the only real point made in those small excerpts is that Muslim communities by and large do not separate church and state. Which is a very important point to remember when the US enacts foreign policy in Muslim countries. If the US goes into a country like Saudi Arabia and says "yo, you need to separate your religion from your government" then they are only going to exacerbate the differences between the two nations. The US needs a different approach in the Middle East, and with latest talks just starting up, hopefully they will find it.

 

Hey, I'm a huge civil rights guy and I realize that most Muslim countries are horrific when it comes to that. But the US can't go in and topple every government in an attempt to change the Middle East.

 

None of that really has anything to do with building a community center in Manhattan, though.

 

Here is a pic of where it is supposed to be built:

 

 

Here is a blurb about the center itself:

 

The Cordoba Initiative, the project

[I want teh kotor 3]

It's like putting a Shinto shrine right on top of Pearl Harbor. If anyone tried to do that, nobody would support it, but it seems that the liberals don't think that 911 was quite as bad.

 

I think it is entirely disrespectful to put it there, but I'm not sure its intentional. There is an argument to be made that it is a symbol of peace between the larger Muslim community (read: those other than the mother****ing sharia terrorists) and the American people, but I don't buy it. That having been said, they can put their goddamn mosque wherever the hell they want to.

[Archmonarch]

Really, just a ton of misinformation out there. Has anyone noticed that it is only politicians and media pundits that are getting into it about this? Both Jewish and Christian church leaders in the area support the center.

 

As usual with political movements, facts just get in the way of the message. How can you reasonably expect any group to promote their political agenda if they are forced to work without the propagandistic tools of fear, hatred, and ignorance? It's not as if common sense and truth has any real impact on the discussion.

 

The sad thing is I'm not sure how much of that is truly sarcasm any longer.

 

goddamn mosque

 

This attitude is the entire problem. Islamic terrorists represent Islam to the exact same extent the Inquisition represented Christianity or the Soviets represented Atheism. Which is to say, they are crazy extremes whose actions no reasonable person would blame upon the original creed. If you're determined enough, anything can be twisted to suit your purposes.

Edited August 21, 2010 by Archmonarch

[Guard Dog]

It's like putting a Shinto shrine right on top of Pearl Harbor. If anyone tried to do that, nobody would support it, but it seems that the liberals don't think that 911 was quite as bad.

 

I think it is entirely disrespectful to put it there, but I'm not sure its intentional. There is an argument to be made that it is a symbol of peace between the larger Muslim community (read: those other than the mother****ing sharia terrorists) and the American people, but I don't buy it. That having been said, they can put their goddamn mosque wherever the hell they want to.

Actually no it's not like that at all. Pearl Harbor was not bombed for the glory of buddah or Shintoisim. The WTC was bombed for the glory of Islam. UBL himself wrapped himself in the Koran looking for a pretext.

 

An no hurlie, the minaret thing was all me. AFAIK they are not putting minarets there. Like I said, I really have no strong feeling about this thing one way or another but I do want people to see it for what it is. A victory monument for Islam and a provocation for us. Because you can bet that is how it will be seen accross the world. The message will not be that we are free and tolerant, the message we are sending is that we are weak and defeated.

 

I've actually served in Kuwaitt and Saudi Arabia back in '91. These people are so different from us they might as well be a different species.

[Monte Carlo]

Should every politician come with a detailed and verified biography and a psychological profile?

 

 

Actually, yes.

 

+1

 

Hell yeah.

[Monte Carlo]

a fact I can easily dispute by linking verses from the Koran

 

With the greatest respect, one of the main issues with the Koran is that the haditha can, and are, interpreted in many different ways. In much the same way as stuff from the Bible is.

 

Difference being, Islam hasn't had it's Martin Luther / Reformation moment yet.

[I want teh kotor 3]

goddamn mosque

 

This attitude is the entire problem. Islamic terrorists represent Islam to the exact same extent the Inquisition represented Christianity or the Soviets represented Atheism. Which is to say, they are crazy extremes whose actions no reasonable person would blame upon the original creed. If you're determined enough, anything can be twisted to suit your purposes.

 

The attitude of "me being tired of hearing about it"? The "goddamn" was an expression of frustration, not of distaste.

 

It's like putting a Shinto shrine right on top of Pearl Harbor. If anyone tried to do that, nobody would support it, but it seems that the liberals don't think that 911 was quite as bad.

 

I think it is entirely disrespectful to put it there, but I'm not sure its intentional. There is an argument to be made that it is a symbol of peace between the larger Muslim community (read: those other than the mother****ing sharia terrorists) and the American people, but I don't buy it. That having been said, they can put their goddamn mosque wherever the hell they want to.

Actually no it's not like that at all. Pearl Harbor was not bombed for the glory of buddah or Shintoisim. The WTC was bombed for the glory of Islam. UBL himself wrapped himself in the Koran looking for a pretext.

 

My point was that it is indeed building a monument to a culture that attacked us at the very point at which they attacked us. Shintoism probably wasn't the best example there, but off the top of my head I can't think of another Japanese symbol.

[Adahn5]

the Soviets represented Atheism.

 

You're lumping the Soviet Union together with the Inquisition and Islamic terrorists? Think about that statement long and hard there mate.

 

Secondly, do not put Atheism together with Christianity, Islam, Buddhism or anything else. Atheism is not a religion, no more than bald is a hair style or black is a colour.

 

Atheism is not inherently leftist in nature. Humanism and atheism have always been rejected in the US for the longest time because they're automatically linked with socialism or communism, two words that are associated with 'evil'. I don't know if you're a theist yourself but the Soviet Union didn't directly look down upon spirituality, what they looked down upon and crushed quite severely was the political power wielded by organized religion, whatever religion that might be. But it did not spread disbelief in some higher power.

 

Islam is one of the most violent religions, in that it's penalty for apostasy is death. No other major religion has such a price to pay if you decide leave it.

 

On another note, what's wrong with big government? You need a strong government in order to keep companies and corporations in check. A strong government is required in order to properly provide for it's people. Obama might not be the ray of light everyone has been waiting for, but he's certainly got the ball rolling. I agree with Orogun01 in that he inherited a LOT of crap from the previous administration. Besides, I find it very funny that whenever a republican president is in charge, conservatives always say 'well he's our president and we must follow as he says'. Going so far as to support 'big' government invervention, espionage and passing legislation that infringes on personal liberty, freedom of speech and privacy. On the other hand, if a democratic president is in office, then they immediately call it the apocalypse, brand him a nazi and start running around like hysterical loons, raving about how big government is going to take everything away from them.

 

>.> Give me a break, they're damn hypocrites. Everyone simply roots for their own team, why can't we all just be grown up and admit it?

[Volourn]

"Islamic terrorists represent Islam to the exact same extent the Inquisition represented Christianity or the Soviets represented Atheism."

 

Yeah, but as above, would we be fine with allowinga christian chruch to be built on or near a site where a christian extremist did something?

 

I wonder if, for exmaple, a Christian/Catholic extremist were to destroy this new center, would we then two years later be fine with a Christian church be built on that site even if the people wanting to build were doing it with good motivations in mind? I sure hope not.

 

Like I said ebfore, no doubt, the mosque has a legal right to be built. Heck, on thes urface, morally I have no problem with it but it does seem kinda off to build any religious building on or enar a palce that was attacked because of thatr eligion (extremists or not, it reeks of awarding bad behaviour). All you are doing is opening old wounds.

 

It should be pointed out that its not bigotry that opposes the msoque since the vast majority of those who oppose the mosque have no problem with mosques being built elsewhere. So, it's not an 'anti Muslim' stance neccessarily 9except, of course, the extremist bigots).

[I want teh kotor 3]

You're lumping the Soviet Union together with the Inquisition and Islamic terrorists? Think about that statement long and hard there mate.

No reason not to; all are collections of mass murderers.

 

 

 

On another note, what's wrong with big government? You need a strong government in order to keep companies and corporations in check. A strong government is required in order to properly provide for it's people. Obama might not be the ray of light everyone has been waiting for, but he's certainly got the ball rolling. I agree with Orogun01 in that he inherited a LOT of crap from the previous administration. Besides, I find it very funny that whenever a republican president is in charge, conservatives always say 'well he's our president and we must follow as he says'. Going so far as to support 'big' government invervention, espionage and passing legislation that infringes on personal liberty, freedom of speech and privacy. On the other hand, if a democratic president is in office, then they immediately call it the apocalypse, brand him a nazi and start running around like hysterical loons, raving about how big government is going to take everything away from them.

The problem with government is that it removes power from the individual. The only ball Comrade Obama has gotten rolling is the commie ball.