Legalise marijuana

[~Di]

Legalisation tends to mean:

 

- Lots more more money for the government through taxation (which can be spent on drug awareness and education if desired)

- Lower incidences of the drug's use as demonstrated by multiple states where it has been legalised or decriminalised

- Far lower law enforcement costs, as victimless crimes such as smoking a joint no longer use up law enforcement resources such as court time, officer time, or gaol space

- The elimination of the black market, and hence stricter quality control and monitoring of the drug

- And last but not least, no longer treating ordinary citizens like criminals

 

 

Legalization = production? Of course not.

 

Legalization simply means its not illegal, it doesnt mean the state becomes the producer and supplier. So nobody is filling the state coffers to overflowing with tax money nor controlling the "black market" or quality. The rest I agree with.

 

I don't follow your logic.

 

Legalisation = allowing people to grow and sell it. Allowing people to grow and sell it allows the government to tax it. Allowing the government to tax it means a completely a new revenue stream.

 

And certainly for Proposition 19, the government plans to licence, regulate, and tax it.

 

He's right. Tobacco is "legal", but government severely restricts licenses to grow tobacco. Proposition 19 simply means that use and possession of marijuana will no longer be illegal. Now if it passes... a longshot, but I'm gonna vote for it!... then I suspect we will face years of legislative chaos until the state figures out a way to pass laws restricting the growing and distribution of the plant (much like tobacco) in order to get its share of the profits.

 

But that's only after about 5 years of dealing with federal lawsuits claiming that only the federal government has the power to legalize "banned substances." The feds (and state officials with a stick up their butt about "evil weed") are still harassing people here using marijuana legally for medical conditions. If passed this will only be the first step in an arduous, expensive and lengthy legal battle. But somebody's got to take that first step, so my state has done so. Woot!

[Humodour]

He's right. Tobacco is "legal", but government severely restricts licenses to grow tobacco. Proposition 19 simply means that use and possession of marijuana will no longer be illegal.

 

Interestingly, I read from a reasonably reliable source that Prop 19 means:

- Personal growing and use is legal

- Commercial growing is illegal without a government licence

- The government doesn't have to give out any licences.

- The government can (and will) tax commercial licences.

 

So any commercial, non-black market sale will be taxed and government regulated. Given cost reductions of 80% predicted (from like $300 to $40 for an ounce) I find it hard to see how the black market could compete UNLESS the government intentionally restricted supply. Given the opportunity to eleminate the black market in weed, I can't see why the government would restrict demand much.

 

So I guess my point is that Prop 19 legalises non-commercial growing and recreational use, as well as commercial growing and selling - but the commercial side is kind of also a seperate issue as the government could simply elect not to grant licences.

[Gromnir]

am always seeing arguments that mary jane is less harmful than alcohol. *chuckle* one thing is for damned sure... weed ain't never made anybody smarter. yeah, is a selfish motive, but add a few more krez clones to the workforce can only help to make Gromnir look more smarty and dependable by comparison. therefore, we is in favor o' enabling the pot heads... 'cause why should the alcoholics have all the fun, eh?

 

HA! Good Fun!

[I want teh kotor 3]

am always seeing arguments that mary jane is less harmful than alcohol. *chuckle* one thing is for damned sure... weed ain't never made anybody smarter. yeah, is a selfish motive, but add a few more krez clones to the workforce can only help to make Gromnir look more smarty and dependable by comparison. therefore, we is in favor o' enabling the pot heads... 'cause why should the alcoholics have all the fun, eh?

 

HA! Good Fun!

 

:(

[Hiro Protagonist]

I can think of the only reason to ban marijuana would be that people would simply stop taking life seriously if it was legal.

 

 

Or everyone may become pacifists and who would fight our wars.

[Humodour]

am always seeing arguments that mary jane is less harmful than alcohol. *chuckle* one thing is for damned sure... weed ain't never made anybody smarter. yeah, is a selfish motive, but add a few more krez clones to the workforce can only help to make Gromnir look more smarty and dependable by comparison. therefore, we is in favor o' enabling the pot heads... 'cause why should the alcoholics have all the fun, eh?

 

HA! Good Fun!

 

I love this post for multiple reasons: it perpetuates myths about marijuana, it does so whilst highlighting gromnir's ignorance of the topic at hand, and it's a classic example of gromnir using arrogance to sate his inferiority complex. And besides, where else am I going to find a post claiming that I'm some kind of hectic stoner?

 

Oh gromnir you rascal!

[Gromnir]

am always seeing arguments that mary jane is less harmful than alcohol. *chuckle* one thing is for damned sure... weed ain't never made anybody smarter. yeah, is a selfish motive, but add a few more krez clones to the workforce can only help to make Gromnir look more smarty and dependable by comparison. therefore, we is in favor o' enabling the pot heads... 'cause why should the alcoholics have all the fun, eh?

 

HA! Good Fun!

 

I love this post for multiple reasons: it perpetuates myths about marijuana, it does so whilst highlighting gromnir's ignorance of the topic at hand, and it's a classic example of gromnir using arrogance to sate his inferiority complex. And besides, where else am I going to find a post claiming that I'm some kind of hectic stoner?

 

Oh gromnir you rascal!

 

clearly krez is too stoned to notice that we didn't perpetuate any myths 'bout mj... 'less he is arguing that weed Does make folks smarter.

 

 

HA! Good Fun!

Edited July 8, 2010 by Gromnir

[Gorgon]

I can think of the only reason to ban marijuana would be that people would simply stop taking life seriously if it was legal.

 

 

Or everyone may become pacifists and who would fight our wars.

Unless we unwittingly unleash a power to great to be harnessed on the world.

 

[Moose]

I think historically the only reason for a ban on cannabis is it lowers production.

[Walsingham]

What damage does marijuana cause to society, Wals? Economic loss from people forgetting to set their alarms for work because they were too stoned the previous night?

 

I'm sorry, I don't buy the 'societal damage' line. Marijuana is less addictive than alcohol and causes people to lay around. They don't go stealing TVs to get their next hit, and they don't get all worked up and start fights in pubs.

 

I think marijuana is beneficial to society. It leads to creativity, socialness, and relaxation. All good, positive things in a high-gear consumption society.

 

Edit: Yes, that's the only part of your post I took issue with.

 

You may not agree - well, you DON'T agree - but getting stoned is all about pushing your brain chemistry in ways it wouldn't normally move. It moves people and not always in good ways. Rather like alcohol its effects depend on who is taking it, when they take it, and why. It can interfere with work itself, it can affect motivation, it can lead to over-relaxation and neglect of important functions... like bloody showering if memory of university serves.

 

I find it relatively easy to relax so I don't touch the stuff. I mainline coffee to work, and inhale the ale to socialise. These things balance, and I think in other people dope helps them balance. But if you use anything inappropriately then you become imbalanced and that CAN be problematic.

 

Again, at the risk of sounding like a broken record, we don't need to establish marijuana's absolute innocuousness. It merely has to be confidently below comparative levels with much more serious problems. I don't think anyone seriously suggests it is worse than methamphetamine or heroin. And we have insufficient resources to adequately tackle those drugs.

[heathen]

Cannabis, while not completely harmless, is most certainly the best suited for moderate and frequent consuption of all the drugs I've tried, not counting small amounts of alcohol like a beer or two a day. I've used it for more than a decade, starting from when I was 13 and am a relatively succesful person with meaningful relationships and a good career. I'm pretty much the proof that you can be a daily smoker of weed and live a completely "normal" life (altho my life isn't that normal, but that's a lifestyle choice). I'm all for cannabis legalization, if only that kids as young as I was started later and with purer, better weed than what we had to smoke back then.

You may be coping, but I still say daily use is not recommend. It should be a weekend sort of thing as a rule of thumb just IMHO. It's not like the prime stuff is exactly cheap either.

 

Yeah, which is the reason I'm not a daily user anymore. It was ok when I was in school and had no responsibilities, but now when I'm working I don't really want to risk forgetting some important work stuff because I had a cement head left over from last night.

 

I get the primo cheap cos I know a lot of people who grow it. Sure there a drier times now and then, but those are actually good too since it's good to take some break from getting high, both because it's easier on your lungs and you get your tolerance down.

 

stuff about growing weed

 

This is all true to an extent, however I do feel that you're making it seem a bit more easy than it is. Growing high q. weed, especially if you want a certain strain is much like cooking or brewing beer; takes years of practise to make it perfect. Lots of people brew beer and make wine at home and still buy the professionally made stuff. Cannabis is naturally a bit different since there's no other process involved than the act of growing itself, but still if weed were legal I sure as hell wouldn't bother growing it, I'd just go to the nearest coffee shop and buy some exotic, strong and dried bud without any hassle.

Edited July 8, 2010 by heathen

[Gorgon]

What damage does marijuana cause to society, Wals? Economic loss from people forgetting to set their alarms for work because they were too stoned the previous night?

 

I'm sorry, I don't buy the 'societal damage' line. Marijuana is less addictive than alcohol and causes people to lay around. They don't go stealing TVs to get their next hit, and they don't get all worked up and start fights in pubs.

 

I think marijuana is beneficial to society. It leads to creativity, socialness, and relaxation. All good, positive things in a high-gear consumption society.

 

Edit: Yes, that's the only part of your post I took issue with.

 

You may not agree - well, you DON'T agree - but getting stoned is all about pushing your brain chemistry in ways it wouldn't normally move. It moves people and not always in good ways. Rather like alcohol its effects depend on who is taking it, when they take it, and why. It can interfere with work itself, it can affect motivation, it can lead to over-relaxation and neglect of important functions... like bloody showering if memory of university serves.

 

I find it relatively easy to relax so I don't touch the stuff. I mainline coffee to work, and inhale the ale to socialise. These things balance, and I think in other people dope helps them balance. But if you use anything inappropriately then you become imbalanced and that CAN be problematic.

 

I think your personal experience of hash users has skewered your perception to an unreasonable degree. It does not impact work performance unless it becomes a daily thing. Sure not every one can keep their usage in check, but that's not really what we were discussing. Potheads smell like the clothes hamper, drunks smell like what they had to drink this week. That's neither here nor there.

[Humodour]

It can interfere with work itself, it can affect motivation, it can lead to over-relaxation and neglect of important functions... like bloody showering if memory of university serves.

 

Look, anybody who takes it in this capacity - when they're meant to be performing at school or work, or so often that they start to neglect important hygiene - is abusing it (like they would be if it were alcohol instead). No two ways about it. I'd also argue that those who are able to take it daily and function normally and work and shower every day (e.g. heathen in his youth) are also abusing it. Functional abusers. They're clearly not a problem to society, but I wouldn't like to see the gene regulation changes happening in the brain (although I've read a very interesting study indicating the brain rewires itself to cope with long-term daily use such that there's little cognitive deficit compared to a non-smoker at baseline).

 

But these things do not result from occasional use (e.g. on the weekend with some mates) - that's just a myth fools like gromnir take great pleasure in pushing. And all the stats I've seen about marijuana indicate the vast majority (and it is a majority) of those who use it do so intermittently.

 

Here's the first piece of data I could find: http://www.nida.nih.gov/infofacts/marijuana.html

 

So close to 50% of all 12th graders have tried it in their life time in America (which means overall lifetime use rates in America are well above 50% - probably more like 70% or 80%), yet only about 5% of them used it daily.

 

It's something for the government to monitor closely perhaps and combat with education campaigns if necessary (which do a heck of a lot more to reduce drug use than criminalisation of the citizenry).

Edited July 8, 2010 by Krezack

[Enoch]

Anecdotally, I know of at least one occasional smoker who feels some lingering negative effects for a day or two after ganja use. Mostly he "feels stupid" when he tries to write any kind of lengthy correspondence.

[Gorgon]

My dad had a quite successful career as a writer and I don't remember ever seeing him work when he wasn't high. Just sayin'.

 

It helped him concentrate by blurring out everything else.

Edited July 8, 2010 by Gorgon

[Gorgon]

Your friend probably smokes too much, or the wrong kind.

 

I have long been a proponent of the 'high light', where you still have your wits about you and aren't going for snacks every 5 minutes.

[Humodour]

I never get any sort of 'weed hangover', but my mate says he wakes up with a 'fluffy head' the next day.

 

I find it pretty easy to write and type while high. Enjoyable, too. My dialogue style changes slightly.

[HoonDing]

You'll get more a hangover from some Cuban cigars than from cannabis. Cannabis is legal here, it's hardly a big deal. More of a big deal over here is cocaine replacing XTC as the #1 party drug, even the country's #1 cyclist got caught using it.

[heathen]

Anecdotally, I know of at least one occasional smoker who feels some lingering negative effects for a day or two after ganja use. Mostly he "feels stupid" when he tries to write any kind of lengthy correspondence.

 

This is the "cement head" I'm referring to. It goes away once your tolerance goes up. The downside is that you need to smoke much more if you really want to space out. Nowadays I usually just toke a bit and then just do whatever, spacing out is fun and everything but I just usually want to relax and enjoy music a bit more while doing chores around the house.

[Humodour]

You'll get more a hangover from some Cuban cigars than from cannabis. Cannabis is legal here, it's hardly a big deal. More of a big deal over here is cocaine replacing XTC as the #1 party drug, even the country's #1 cyclist got caught using it.

 

Cannabis is legal there? What country? Are you sure it's not decriminalised?

 

Examples of countries where weed is decriminalised (generally considered to be a small fine, no criminal record, no gaol time) but not legalised:

Australia (half of the states)

Portugal

Spain

Netherlands

Belgium

Czech

Mexico

Norway

Russia

 

Countries where it remains criminalised (gaol time possible for any amount):

Canada

Denmark

Germany

India (ironic, I know!)

Italy

Ireland

Japan

New Zealand

Poland

South Africa

 

There's not much of a pattern here. Countries with some of the most pro-marijuana cultures and highest use rates (e.g. New Zealand and Canada) have no decriminalisation whatsoever, which leads law enforcement to ignore it rather than notice it in many cases.

 

Edit: Arguably Portugal and Spain have legalised possession for personal use, however it's a far cry from legalisation Prop 19 style. If this passes, California will truly be at the frontier of drug law rationalisation.

Edited July 8, 2010 by Krezack

[HoonDing]

I guess it's more accurate to say it's decriminalized (Belgium) for personal use. Although consumption in public and around minors is still criminalized, IIRC.

[Enoch]

My dad had a quite successful career as a writer and I don't remember ever seeing him work when he wasn't high. Just sayin'.

 

It helped him concentrate by blurring out everything else.

Your friend probably smokes too much, or the wrong kind.

 

I have long been a proponent of the 'high light', where you still have your wits about you and aren't going for snacks every 5 minutes.

"The wrong kind" could be an issue, but I highly doubt that it's too much. AFAIK, he's a rather irregular toker (largely for the reason I described), but has used The Pot off-and-on over the last 35 years or so.

 

More likely, it's simply that brain chemistry effects can be unpredictable from person-to-person. Much the same way that there are angry drunks, gabby drunks, quiet drunks, sloppy drunks, functional alcoholics, people prone to hangovers, people resistant to hangovers, etc.

[Wrath of Dagon]

The comparison with alcohol isn't really valid. Alcohol is actually beneficial if you don't get drunk but use it as another food. Pot harms both your brain and your lungs, but I guess that's what natural selection is all about.

[Gorgon]

Yeah, Nothing like a beer sandwich to fill you up.

[Wrath of Dagon]

Beer & sandwich.