Immigration

[Wrath of Dagon]

My argument is to make the process of legitimate legal immigration easy enough that it can satisfy domestic labor market demand, get businesses employing legitimate guest workers rather than under-the-table illegals, and try to figure out the least-bad way of dealing with the millions of undocumented people already here. Do that, and won't be any reason to sink billions into fences.

I'm confused, are you saying if we just let everyone in, we won't need fences? Plus I thought billions was pocket change to you guys in government.

 

MOVING TO MEXICO

 

Dear President Obama:

I'm planning to move my family and extended family into Mexico for my health, and I would like to ask you to assist me.

 

We're planning to simply walk across the border from the U.S. Into Mexico, and we'll need your help to make a few arrangements.

 

We plan to skip all the legal stuff like passports, immigration quotas and laws.

 

I'm sure they handle those things the same way you do here. So, would you mind telling your buddy, President Calderon, that I'm on my way over?

 

Please let him know that I will be expecting the following:

 

1. Free medical care for my entire family.

 

2. English-speaking government bureaucrats for all services I might need, whether I use them or not.

 

3. Please print all Mexican government forms in English.

 

4. I want my grandkids to be taught Spanish by English-speaking (bi-lingual) teachers.

 

5. Tell their schools they need to include classes on American culture and history.

 

6. I want my grandkids to see the American flag on one of the flag poles at their school.

 

7. Please plan to feed my grandkids at school for both breakfast and lunch.

 

8. I will need a local Mexican driver's license so I can get easy access to government services.

 

9. I do plan to get a car and drive in Mexico , but, I don't plan to purchase car insurance, and I probably won't make any special effort to learn local traffic laws.

 

10. In case one of the Mexican police officers does not get the memo from their president to leave me alone, please be sure that every patrol car has at least one English-speaking officer.

 

11. I plan to fly the U.S. Flag from my house top, put U S. Flag decals on my car, and have a gigantic celebration on July 4th. I do not want any complaints or negative comments from the locals.

 

12. I would also like to have a nice job without paying any taxes, or have any labor or tax laws enforced on any business I may start.

 

13. Please have the president tell all the Mexican people to be extremely nice and never say critical things about me or my family, or about the strain we might place on their economy.

 

14. I want to receive free food stamps.

 

15. Naturally, I'll expect free rent subsidies.

 

16. I'll need Income tax credits so although I don't pay Mexican Taxes, I'll receive money from the government.

 

17. Please arrange it so that the Mexican Gov't pays $4,500 to help me buy a new car.

 

18. Oh yes, I almost forgot, please enroll me free into the Mexican Social Security program so that I'll get a monthly income in retirement.

 

I know this is an easy request because you already do all these things for all his people who walk over to the U..S. From Mexico . I am sure that President Calderon won't mind returning the favor if you ask him nicely.

 

Thank you so much for your kind help. You're the man!!!

[~Di]

I thought I'd start a new thread on the immigration angle of the Texas discussion, as we haven't discussed it in awhile. There has been a steady push recently against illegal immigration in the US. Arizona passed a very controversial bill, there has been conflicts over Cinco De mayo, etc.

 

Now a lot of the pressure is brought on by the high unemployment rate in the US, currently hovering around 10% in some states. The idea here is that illegal immigrants are taking jobs away from US citizens. We are looking at an estimated 11.5 million illegal immigrants in the US, with California shouldering about a quarter of that and Texas coming in at about 14%. According to the research, about 57% of illegal immigrants come from Mexico.

 

The number of illegals is twice that figure, well over 20 million. How do I know that when most of the "illegal statistics" sources will be shot down as biased for one side or another? Simple. The 12 million illegals figure was used by the government in the mid-to-late 1990's. Let's pretend it was in 2000 for discussion purposes. The government also admitted that between 1.5 and 2.0 million crossed over every year. Now let's presume that at least 1/2 to 1 million also went back each year, that's still an increase in our illegal population of 1 million per year, 10 million over ten years. No way that 12 million figure has been accurate for between 10 and 15 years. The percent from Mexico is actually closer to 69% (in 2006) with another 30% coming from Central America.

 

My belief is that the entire idea of patrolling borders and going after illegals is a waste of money. Here is why:

 

1. A large labor force is necessary for our agricultural industry. These are seasonal jobs. Compared to most jobs in the US, they pay poorly. Right now if we were to magically remove everyone that is in the US illegally, this entire industry would collapse. That would devastate the US economy like nothing we have ever seen before. With 10% unemployment, you might think that these jobs can be filled easily, but that is not the case. With our current welfare and minimum wage system, neither employers nor unemployed US citizens are jumping at the chance to work in the fields.

 

There's already a massive guest worker program for seasonal agriculture work. In California, they were unionized by Ceasar Chavez, who got them the working conditions, decent wages, and benefits they deserved. These were all legal workers, because Chavez knew that if illegals came in, they would break the union and destroy it. And that's exactly what happened.

 

Now forget agriculture. Nearly every entry level job in restaurants, fast-food, construction, hotel, resort, landscaping, retail, manufacturing, meat packing, you name it, has been taken over by illegals, especially in heavily affected areas. It's not just agriculture, and there already is a guest worker system for seasonal work. Has been for decades.

 

2. Patrolling the border is expensive. It is a gigantic border. Having law enforcement dedicated to illegal immigration is also expensive. It takes time and money away from dealing with violent crime. I understand the issue is large, 11.5 million is a lot of people. But are there other alternatives to lowering that number than aggressive deportation?

 

Sorry, more than mild mannered agriculture workers are coming across the border. There are 3500 acres, up to 80 miles inside of AZ, that are so filled with violence and drug runners that signs are posted warning people to stay away... from land inside their own state. Drugs are pouring across, as is human trafficking and crime. Don't forget, anyone anywhere in the world can take a plane to Mexico, then cross into the USA without leaving a trace. And they can be carrying anything with them. Yes, the border is huge, but damn. Every country in the world has a right to secure their own borders. Citizens of this country have a right to expect their government to do the same.

 

Here are my solutions:

 

1. The Bracero program was a partnership between the US and Mexico that allowed a worker exchange for almost 20 years. At it's height, it brought nearly half a million workers over in one year to fill different gaps in US industries. This type of program is key to keeping US industries stable while legitimizing the needed Mexican labor force. We need many of these program, and they need to be backed by strong Mexican-US business deals that improve the the economies of both nations. This can even create more jobs for US citizens, as the programs themselves will become an industry and need an educated workforce to oversee and coordinate.

 

Got no problem with this. But first, let's enforce our immigration laws. Come down hard on employers that entice illegals with jobs. Fine them until it hurts, and up the ante everytime they're caught. Any employer can check to see if a SS# or green card # has been stolen. Force them to do that or break their piggy banks. No jobs, no enticement, no problem.

 

Then secure the damned border to keep this from happening again, and to control the rampant influx of drugs and crime, because I guaran-damn-tee you that the Bracero Program isn't going to faze drug runners and criminals.

 

2. How much does the US spend on the Canadian border? It is an even larger border, so how come we never hear about millions being spent on fences between Seattle and Vancouver? There is a major problem with US-Mexico relations, and it needs to be addressed. First off, it is in the US's best interest to help Mexico become a stable and strong economic power. They are our third largest trade partner. Invest some of that border patrol money into stimulating the Mexican economy, and suddenly you have less people trying to leave Mexico. This is already done to an extent, but it needs to be full scale to make a real difference.

 

No. Just no, dammit. Mexican government has been corrupt since I've been on this planet, which is a considerable amount of time. We already give a potload of financial aid to the Mexican government, and what do they do? They pass out the money to their friends and neighbors, let the poor starve then give out maps and tell their people to go to America and send money home. Money from America is Mexico's second largest revenue source.

 

It's not the responsibility of 300 million American taxpayers to finance the corrupt government of another country. We've got poverty here that needs to be addressed, unemployment here that needs to be addressed, ecological disasters and human misery here that needs to be addressed.

 

I guess people who haven't been impacted by the enormous problem that the groundswell of illegals over the past couple of decades have wrought can't understand the devastation of ranchers who've seen their livestock and pets slaughtered, their homes ransacked, their neighbors shot... or folks who've seen the town they grew up in change so that their own children cannot find the jobs that we at their age took for granted.

 

It's a big damned problem. And when it comes to the point that there are 20+ million Canadians in here stealing identities, mucking up millions of social security accounts and IRS records, then we'll have to fence the upper border too.

[Hurlshort]

My argument is to make the process of legitimate legal immigration easy enough that it can satisfy domestic labor market demand, get businesses employing legitimate guest workers rather than under-the-table illegals, and try to figure out the least-bad way of dealing with the millions of undocumented people already here. Do that, and won't be any reason to sink billions into fences.

I'm confused, are you saying if we just let everyone in, we won't need fences? Plus I thought billions was pocket change to you guys in government.

 

 

Your confusion stems from the fact you see the entire immigration issue as an 'us versus them' scenario. Enoch was quite clear with his argument.

[~Di]

It's pretty funny how americans complain about illegals while at the same time using them as cheap labour. Can't have it both ways, guys.

 

Also it's funny that americans complain about the drugs while basically everyone with money and influence does them or have done them at some point. There'd be no drugs without a market and no illegal aliens without demand for cheaper workforce. Fix those and your problem solves itself.

 

True. That's why no other country on the planet makes transporting/using drugs illegal, and leave their borders completely unsecured so that said drugs can be easily transported between countries unmolested. Oh, wait...

 

As for the cheap labor, it's against federal law for employers to hire illegals, yet the government takes corporate bribes not to enforce those laws. That's why Americans are so damned furious. Republicans want the bribe money, democrats want the votes, and American citizens are taking it in the shorts, loosing millions of jobs (don't give me that "jobs they won't do" crap), millions upon millions of citizens with stolen identities, screwed up social security numbers, IRS headaches as they are charged tax on income they did not earn... never mind the billions it costs to educate the children of illegals, pay welfare to illegals, provide medical care to illegals (80-100 hospitals have been closed, bankrupted by the cost of obstetrical care for illegals). Our politicians don't give a damn about how citizens are affected as long as they get bribe money and votes.

 

Build a real border fence and patrol it. Send an army division if necessary, they're not doing much in their bases anyway. Problem solved.

 

Seriously this kind of thinking is completely backwards. This would still leave the reason the mexicans are coming to the states: higher standard of living from low end jobs americans don't want to do. It would just make it harder and/or more expensive for the mexicans to get to the states, which would give more money to the criminal gangs who smuggle people in.

 

But it makes it a hell of a lot harder to get in, and it keeps vehicles... like the Mexican army vehicles escorting drug dealers... out. When San Diego finished its border fence, border crossings there dropped more than 90%. So yeah, it works.

[Hurlshort]

Di, if the number of illegal immigrants has really gone up to 20 million, doesn't that mean the current attempts at controlling the border are completely ineffectual?

 

Maybe the answer to a bulletproof opponent is not more bullets?

[~Di]

Di, if the number of illegal immigrants has really gone up to 20 million, doesn't that mean the current attempts at controlling the border are completely ineffectual?

 

Maybe the answer to a bulletproof opponent is not more bullets?

 

Of course it's completely ineffectual! That's why most Americans are so damned mad! The government is not giving the resources needed to do the job, it has been cutting the number of border patrol agents for years, and the promised border fence was never even funded. When the outcry got bad enough, Bush shipped about 1200 national guard troops to the border (pffft... that's about one every three miles) and wouldn't even arm the guys. I mean, people are getting shot by border crossers nearly every week down there. Unarmed troops are useless. Then he promised a fence, and promptly pulled the funding.

 

In the late 1980's, we had 2 million illegals here. Reagan's amnesty plan was popular. I was in favor of it. However, his promise to secure the border was a total lie, and once people who wanted to come here heard the word "amnesty", illegal crossings literally went up 1000% in five years. Hence the mess we are in today, thanks to the greed of several administrations over decades who preferred money and votes to the security of their citizens.

 

If the government did what it is supposed to do, secure the border and enforce immigration laws, then we wouldn't have 20+ million illegals here in the first place. THAT is the problem.

[Slowtrain]

France spend a lot of time, effort, amd money building the impressive Maginot Line.

 

The Nazi's drove around it.

[~Di]

France spend a lot of time, effort, amd money building the impressive Maginot Line.

 

The Nazi's drove around it.

 

Yes, but if the border fence is actually completed, they'll have to swim around it. Seriously, this is a major problem for millions and millions of people. I guess people who haven't been adversely affected can't understand the magnitude, but it truly is substantial.

[Calax]

France spend a lot of time, effort, amd money building the impressive Maginot Line.

 

The Nazi's drove around it.

 

Yes, but if the border fence is actually completed, they'll have to swim around it. Seriously, this is a major problem for millions and millions of people. I guess people who haven't been adversely affected can't understand the magnitude, but it truly is substantial.

Thing is, they would. It's happened with Cuba (an island nation mind you) and even now drug runners are using small boats to go up the Cali coast to get in.

[Monte Carlo]

You need to penalise people who hire illegals. Like, lock them up for two years sort of penalties. The parasites who help smuggle refugees? These guys are usually linked to organised crime and they need locking up. Say for ten. Illegals? Rapid deportation, polite, efficient, fast. Take their DNA and politely explain that if they return again they will get a lifetime ban from the USA, a prison sentence then deport them.

 

I've been to Mexico, Arizona, California and Texas. Juarez, El Paso and Tijuana.

 

I think the border controls are impressive, Juarez reminded me of Berlin in 1985 with the chicanes and barbed wire and motion sensors. In two weeks driving through the Big Bend I was stopped by avacado-coloured immigration patrol cars by polite men (many, incidentally, of Latino origin) with guns who searched the boot of my hire car. This would be 1998.

 

I don't know if this is all still in place, but it's not like the border is ignored.

 

Obama is claiming to get on top of this, but it's all aimed at November, triangulation and Chicago-skool BS. If governments don't deal with the properly fairly and sensitively then you get laws like the ones Arizona is passing, and vigilantism. And I can't say I blame them.

[Hurlshort]

France spend a lot of time, effort, amd money building the impressive Maginot Line.

 

The Nazi's drove around it.

 

Yes, but if the border fence is actually completed, they'll have to swim around it. Seriously, this is a major problem for millions and millions of people. I guess people who haven't been adversely affected can't understand the magnitude, but it truly is substantial.

 

By adversely affected, I assume you are referring to the identity theft and drug wars. What percentage of illegal immigrants do you think deal drugs and steal identities?

 

There are also plenty of US citizens that deal drugs and steal identities.

 

It is also ridiculous to try and argue who's life is more adversely affected by illegal immigration. The reality is you see immigration very differently than I do. The education argument is a big one, being that I am a teacher. If I saw this issue the way you do, I would probably be upset that my classes are overcrowded, that I am spending extra time dealing with parents who don't speak English, that I have students who disappear during the holidays for a month to go to Mexico. But I see it as an opportunity to educate a generation of students, to give them a chance to lead a better life than their parents. I am helping children from poor families and giving them a shot at moving up.

 

I know quite a few illegal immigrants. Most of them go back and forth between here and Mexico depending on work available or family circumstances. They are all people who have a lot of familial ties to both Mexico and the US. Some of them have worked towards taking the citizenship exam, some of them just don't see the need, as they plan on returning to Mexico when they get older. None of them have ever shot at me or stolen my identity. I know, what are the odds? I must live a charmed life.

[heathen]

True. That's why no other country on the planet makes transporting/using drugs illegal, and leave their borders completely unsecured so that said drugs can be easily transported between countries unmolested. Oh, wait...

 

Only southern asia has harsher penalties for drugs than the US. Yet your problem is getting worse, not better.

 

As for the cheap labor, it's against federal law for employers to hire illegals, yet the government takes corporate bribes not to enforce those laws. That's why Americans are so damned furious. Republicans want the bribe money, democrats want the votes, and American citizens are taking it in the shorts, loosing millions of jobs (don't give me that "jobs they won't do" crap), millions upon millions of citizens with stolen identities, screwed up social security numbers, IRS headaches as they are charged tax on income they did not earn... never mind the billions it costs to educate the children of illegals, pay welfare to illegals, provide medical care to illegals (80-100 hospitals have been closed, bankrupted by the cost of obstetrical care for illegals). Our politicians don't give a damn about how citizens are affected as long as they get bribe money and votes.

Ah yes, the politicians. You forget that you're the one who voted the politicians in power, you're the one who's buying products grown or made by illegals, you're the one who's reaping the benefits while at the same time complaining about the side effects. By you I mean the american people collectively. I honestly think the gain/lose ratio is balanced for you when it comes to illegals.

 

But it makes it a hell of a lot harder to get in, and it keeps vehicles... like the Mexican army vehicles escorting drug dealers... out. When San Diego finished its border fence, border crossings there dropped more than 90%. So yeah, it works.

 

All the San Diego fence proves is that the illegals found another ways to get into the states. It's pretty na

[HoonDing]

Come to think of it, with Canada to the North, doesn't the USA have a problem with emigration as well?

[Walsingham]

Also prison is really where the criminals are made.

 

I'm on record as saying drugs need to be decriminalised, but this last statement of yours seems pretty ****ing naive.

[heathen]

Also prison is really where the criminals are made.

 

I'm on record as saying drugs need to be decriminalised, but this last statement of yours seems pretty ****ing naive.

 

Well, based on research made here in Finland (which I know is probably different from the states), prisons are where amateur criminals become professional criminals. Gang activity (mostly 1%) is a relatively new phenomenon in Finland and has been researched since the early 90s when the Hells Angels and Bandidos first came to Finland. After that we've seen a real explosion of new gangs, both prison and regular.

 

I'd say my statement is probably more true for illegal aliens since they've got nothing to lose if they get sent to prison for committing no crime. Latino gangs are numerous and powerful and have a strong network in prison and they offer "work" after you get out.

[213374U]

France spend a lot of time, effort, amd money building the impressive Maginot Line.

 

The Nazi's drove around it.

Err... not quite. The Maginot Line was meant to work in concert with the Belgian fort system, as there was an alliance in place when the system was built. Under this setup, the French army would have reinforced Belgian positions and theoretically a breakthrough would have been neither as easy nor as decisive. However Belgium, in a stroke of genius, broke their alliance with the French in 1936, which destroyed the principle around which the Line was built (present a homogeneous defense line to the German aggressor). Germany then outflanked France through "neutral" Belgium in 1940, after steamrolling them.

 

It wasn't as much a military blunder as a political one... as per usual.

[lord of flies]

Solution to "illegal" immigration:

 

Make the immigration process for unskilled laborers much, much easier - that is, abolish bull**** quotas which make legal immigration for unskilled laborers virtually impossible.

 

End the war on drugs, make Mexico end theirs too. Destroy all those narco-terrorists by starving them out as massive pharmaceutical corporations take over the business of distributing opiates.

[Monte Carlo]

Hurlie, your position doesn't seem to take into account the core issue about immigration, which is resources. the Left love to dress up the issue as being about race (which is a factor, I'll grant you, but not the issue).

 

US taxpayers fund infrastructure. Illegal immigrants use that infrastructure. They are X and Y axis, when the people using the infrastructure outstrip capacity you get problems. When you get fully socialised health care and a centre-left government your next problem will be health tourism (which is a problem here). When you point it out you will be accused of being a racist.

 

Western liberal democracies are dying not with a bang, but with a whimper, manipulated by Frankfurt school Marxism on the one hand and ignored by rapacious casino-capitalists on the other.

[Wrath of Dagon]

France spend a lot of time, effort, amd money building the impressive Maginot Line.

 

The Nazi's drove around it.

Wow, the most inappropriate analogy I've seen in like ever.

 

If I saw this issue the way you do, I would probably be upset that my classes are overcrowded, that I am spending extra time dealing with parents who don't speak English, that I have students who disappear during the holidays for a month to go to Mexico. But I see it as an opportunity to educate a generation of students, to give them a chance to lead a better life than their parents. I am helping children from poor families and giving them a shot at moving up.

And I'm sure California taxpayers are deeply grateful to you for using their hard earned money to educate Mexican children.

 

Edit:

When you get fully socialised health care and a centre-left government your next problem will be health tourism (which is a problem here). When you point it out you will be accused of being a racist.

Believe it or not, we do have public healthcare for the poor, and the illegals have no compunction about using it. The hospitals aren't allowed to ask about their immigration status either.

Edited July 2, 2010 by Wrath of Dagon

[Walsingham]

Also prison is really where the criminals are made.

 

I'm on record as saying drugs need to be decriminalised, but this last statement of yours seems pretty ****ing naive.

 

Well, based on research made here in Finland (which I know is probably different from the states), prisons are where amateur criminals become professional criminals. Gang activity (mostly 1%) is a relatively new phenomenon in Finland and has been researched since the early 90s when the Hells Angels and Bandidos first came to Finland. After that we've seen a real explosion of new gangs, both prison and regular.

 

I'd say my statement is probably more true for illegal aliens since they've got nothing to lose if they get sent to prison for committing no crime. Latino gangs are numerous and powerful and have a strong network in prison and they offer "work" after you get out.

 

Probably a more sensible answer than my one line deserved.

 

I would never deny the notion that jail trains and hardens criminals. But asserting that it is the production line for criminals, rather than gangs or families, or quirks of genetics still seems bizarre.

 

Restricting the movement and sale of drugs is a question of simple mathematics. Compare the volume of drugs with the total volume of legal products and you see it's a nonsense. Illegal persons are another matter entirely. In fact I'd go so far as to say that if we destroyed the drug trade by giving the **** away for free then the architecture of organised crime that is currently able to swan past immigration controls and maintain large armies of enforcers and murderers on drug profits would be dealt a killer blow.

[Hurlshort]

If I saw this issue the way you do, I would probably be upset that my classes are overcrowded, that I am spending extra time dealing with parents who don't speak English, that I have students who disappear during the holidays for a month to go to Mexico. But I see it as an opportunity to educate a generation of students, to give them a chance to lead a better life than their parents. I am helping children from poor families and giving them a shot at moving up.

And I'm sure California taxpayers are deeply grateful to you for using their hard earned money to educate Mexican children.

 

Uh, you are aware that I am a California taxpayer, right? As I've tried to explain a few times already, your approach to this issue is one I consider counterproductive.

 

Edit:

When you get fully socialised health care and a centre-left government your next problem will be health tourism (which is a problem here). When you point it out you will be accused of being a racist.

Believe it or not, we do have public healthcare for the poor, and the illegals have no compunction about using it. The hospitals aren't allowed to ask about their immigration status either.

 

So you want hospitals turning hurt people away if they can't produce citizenship papers?

 

It is counterproductive because all you are doing is creating friction and ill will, and you aren't accomplishing your goals. It would be one thing if the end justified the means, but so far clamping down on immigration has been a failure.

 

I am saying it is time to change course. Drop the 'us versus them' mentality and create a better partnership with Mexico and Mexican workers.

[Calax]

You know, given how much people whine about having to have other language ballots etc, you could fix that with a single law making English the official language (we currently don't have an official language in america)

[Wrath of Dagon]

So you want hospitals turning hurt people away if they can't produce citizenship papers?

No, I want them stopped at the border, instead of coming here to enjoy American taxpayer's bounty.

 

It is counterproductive because all you are doing is creating friction and ill will, and you aren't accomplishing your goals. It would be one thing if the end justified the means, but so far clamping down on immigration has been a failure.

 

I am saying it is time to change course. Drop the 'us versus them' mentality and create a better partnership with Mexico and Mexican workers.

Let's all sing Kumbaya, that'll fix everything. I don't want to create a partnership with people who feel entitled to disregard our law. Clamping down on illegal immigration hasn't worked because the government isn't really interested in doing so, and will always come up with a million excuses for why it can't be done.

 

Look at Obama's illegal alien aunt. She was caught and ordered to be deported, yet continued to live in a public housing project for years, and has now been given asylum. Look at people giving fake documents and social security numbers to gain employment. The employer deposits tax payments under a fake social security number every month, the government knows the social security number is made up, yet chooses to do nothing. Law enforcement is a joke.

Edited July 2, 2010 by Wrath of Dagon

[~Di]

France spend a lot of time, effort, amd money building the impressive Maginot Line.

 

The Nazi's drove around it.

 

Yes, but if the border fence is actually completed, they'll have to swim around it. Seriously, this is a major problem for millions and millions of people. I guess people who haven't been adversely affected can't understand the magnitude, but it truly is substantial.

Thing is, they would. It's happened with Cuba (an island nation mind you) and even now drug runners are using small boats to go up the Cali coast to get in.

 

Two water entry points along with XX highway entry points is a lot easier to secure than 3000 miles of open desert. Illegal entries and drug smuggling would decrease by 80-90%.

[~Di]

France spend a lot of time, effort, amd money building the impressive Maginot Line.

 

The Nazi's drove around it.

 

Yes, but if the border fence is actually completed, they'll have to swim around it. Seriously, this is a major problem for millions and millions of people. I guess people who haven't been adversely affected can't understand the magnitude, but it truly is substantial.

 

By adversely affected, I assume you are referring to the identity theft and drug wars. What percentage of illegal immigrants do you think deal drugs and steal identities?

 

There are also plenty of US citizens that deal drugs and steal identities.

 

It is also ridiculous to try and argue who's life is more adversely affected by illegal immigration. The reality is you see immigration very differently than I do. The education argument is a big one, being that I am a teacher. If I saw this issue the way you do, I would probably be upset that my classes are overcrowded, that I am spending extra time dealing with parents who don't speak English, that I have students who disappear during the holidays for a month to go to Mexico. But I see it as an opportunity to educate a generation of students, to give them a chance to lead a better life than their parents. I am helping children from poor families and giving them a shot at moving up.

 

I know quite a few illegal immigrants. Most of them go back and forth between here and Mexico depending on work available or family circumstances. They are all people who have a lot of familial ties to both Mexico and the US. Some of them have worked towards taking the citizenship exam, some of them just don't see the need, as they plan on returning to Mexico when they get older. None of them have ever shot at me or stolen my identity. I know, what are the odds? I must live a charmed life.

 

So the millions and millions of legal immigrants and citizens who have had their social security and green card numbers, they should just suck it up? After all, it hasn't happened to you, so it must not be a big deal. The ranchers who have their livestock and pets butchered, their homes vandalized and ransacked should just suck it up? After all, it hasn't happened to you so it must not be a big deal. The school districts that are nearing bankruptcy because the tax base can't pay the enormous additional expense, should just suck it up? After all, your school is doing fine so it must not be a big deal. How about the dozens and dozens of communities that have seen their hospitals bankrupted and closed because of the cost of illegal obstetrics? After all, your town's hospital is still open, so it shouldn't be a big deal. The millions of legal immigrants and citizens who have lost jobs in construction, restaurants, manufacturing, factories, landscaping, hotels to illegals should just suck it up? After all, you've still got a job so it must not be a big deal.

 

Do you think I don't know illegals, families trying to eek by because their government is too corrupt to care for them when it's easier to hand out maps and lists of coyote names? I grew up surrounded by hispanic culture, and I love it. Individual people, legal or not, are mostly hard-working, warm-hearted folks. I get this. That does not mean that I believe those who have gotten here legally should get shorted by those who can't be bothered, and that employers who lure them here should be given free reign to break our immigration laws, or that our government should be bribed by cash or votes to look the other way, ignoring the very real plight of those who are suffering because nobody will do their damned jobs.

 

I realize you have a relationship with illegals and bond with them personally, whereas you do not know anyone personally who has been directly harmed by the overall influx. To you they are faceless, and apparently unimportant. But 300 million Americans simply cannot take the responsibility of caring for the poor and poverty-stricken people of Mexico and Central America. Even if we could afford it, no country should be expected to do that. Twenty years ago it was 2 million; today it's more than 20 million; in two more decades it could be 50-100 million. The economic drain in welfare, education, incarceration, unpaid taxes, lost jobs, for legal immigrants and citizens is enormous now. When will it be too much? When it finally affects you?

 

Bah, I'm done here. Any time someone speaks up and says that the government should do its job, do what every other country on the planet is expected to do, secure its borders and inforce its immigration laws, they are spoken to snidely and treated as racist scum.