Israel butchers civilians in international waters

[heathen]

While the term Semite refers to a language family that includes amongst other, Arabs and Jews, is antisemitism a term for discrimination against Jews.

 

wikipedia:

 

While the term's etymology might suggest that antisemitism is directed against all Semitic peoples, the term was coined in the late 19th century in Germany as a more scientific-sounding term for Judenhass ("Jew-hatred"), and that has been its normal use since then.

Edited June 7, 2010 by heathen

[GreasyDogMeat]

Yeah, thats pretty much sums up most of the posters in this thread and my point. Hamas is a spotless and friendly organization that loves puppies and is only involved in the flotilla out of the goodness of their hearts. http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/List_of_Pales...suicide_attacks

 

Does Israel overkill at times? Yes... but I find it hard to condemn them like most of you when they are trying to prevent that ever growing list of dead men, women and children.

[213374U]

Let me get this straight: I could burst into your house, a Kalashnikov at the ready, and you would be wrong to defend yourself with force? Don't try to conflate this with something legal.

Yep, it would be wrong for me to shoot you in the face with a 12-gauge, out of the blue. I'd probably spend a few long years in jail. It's funny that it's you of all people that's trying to use this argument, too. The irony is killing me.

 

Pretty cute how, when confronted with the fact that activists may have acted unlawfully, you pretend it's not about "legal matters". Then what is it, right and wrong? Ah, of course -- we can't have little laws getting in the way of the moral righteousness you so proudly hold a monopoly on!

 

 

Why don't you just skip to the end, where you make up some bull**** about how they used lethal force? Wait, they didn't use lethal force, they subdued the commandos. What do you think they did? Stabbed them in the gut a couple times then stuck them in the brig? Please, offer some ****ing evidence besides blatantly biased reports of the Israeli government that there was lethal force applied by the activists. Let me remind you once more: multiple Israeli soldiers were subdued by the activists. None were killed. Compare to Israel's bodycount.

Ha, ha. Doesn't matter what I post, as you can just wave your hand and dismiss it as Zionist propaganda. At least two soldiers ended up in a hospital with serious injuries, including but not limited to, gunshot wounds. Look it up. If things didn't go worse for the commandos it's because they were trained to react as they did, and medical attention was provided quickly where needed. Don't be mad at the commandos, just because they aren't as good at dying as the axe-armed "peace activists".

 

"Subdue", lol.

 

 

Oh, I get it. You don't have any actual defense for your stupid viewpoint that it's A-OK to blow the **** out of anybody who stops you from committing a crime, so you're going to pretend like everybody else is just spouting bull**** while ONLY YOU can see the truth: killing people who try to stop you from robbing a bank is morally acceptable.

Hmm. You must have missed the part where I explained how Israel has the right to board ships trying to breach the blockade. There was no robbery except for, perhaps, the one that had as an object your intelligence.

 

 

Yeah, no. Sources who were there say the Israeli commandos were disarmed and their guns were placed aside. I have seen video of the "weapons" on the ship which included some bars, slingshots, and a few knives. Never seen an axe anywhere.

 

Here, why don't you watch

and show me where the axes are.

So, the sources you haven't seen (or refuse to accept) simply don't exist, AND the sources you provide are all-encompassing of the truth. Hahaha, okay, your Holiness. Edited June 7, 2010 by 213374U

[Aram]

Yeah, thats pretty much sums up most of the posters in this thread and my point. Hamas is a spotless and friendly organization that loves puppies and is only involved in the flotilla out of the goodness of their hearts. http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/List_of_Pales...suicide_attacks

Holy **** thanks for the wiki link. I had no idea that sort of thing ever happened.

[Calax]

Yeah, thats pretty much sums up most of the posters in this thread and my point. Hamas is a spotless and friendly organization that loves puppies and is only involved in the flotilla out of the goodness of their hearts. http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/List_of_Pales...suicide_attacks

 

Does Israel overkill at times? Yes... but I find it hard to condemn them like most of you when they are trying to prevent that ever growing list of dead men, women and children.

And given Israels track record, I'm sure that Hamas feels that they're doing exactly what Israel is doing, they just don't have laser guided missiles and tanks, so they have to make due.

 

I mean after all Israel broke a truce and demolished most of the Gaza infrastructure, killing more innocents than Hamas would have in the same amount of time. To the point that Israel was accused of war crimes, as was Palestinian militants.

[GreasyDogMeat]

Yeah, thats pretty much sums up most of the posters in this thread and my point. Hamas is a spotless and friendly organization that loves puppies and is only involved in the flotilla out of the goodness of their hearts. http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/List_of_Pales...suicide_attacks

Holy **** thanks for the wiki link. I had no idea that sort of thing ever happened.

Right...

 

You make lame jokes about 'going Israel' yet you don't seem to understand what they are up against and WHY they 'go Israel' to protect themselves. I'd say its perfectly resonable to remind people about why they aggressively defend themselves.

 

Look at all the civilian gatherings targeted in that list. Remember too that is JUST suicide bombings (not other kinds like leaving explosives behind etc.) from ONE of a number of terrorist organizations that target Israel.

 

Yet you sit there and condemn them for searching and confiscating goods that could be used to carry out more of those attacks or reacting to ships threatening to run through their blockade.

 

And given Israels track record, I'm sure that Hamas feels that they're doing exactly what Israel is doing, they just don't have laser guided missiles and tanks, so they have to make due.

 

I mean after all Israel broke a truce and demolished most of the Gaza infrastructure, killing more innocents than Hamas would have in the same amount of time. To the point that Israel was accused of war crimes, as was Palestinian militants.

From your own link: "Israel said the conflict was to end rockets attacks from Gaza". Standard Hamas MO. http://newsblaze.com/story/20081229092838z...b/topstory.html

 

http://www.globalsecurity.org/military/wor...amas-qassam.htm

So... when Hamas launches rockets from areas with civilians and uses suicide bombers its just fair play. When Israel fires back at where the rockets came from and hits civilians which Hamas uses as PR leverage with the UN they are the scum of the earth.

 

By your own logic, every country that has waged modern warfare is a terrorist country. The D-Day landings were terrorists activities by British, Canadian and American forces (the french countryside was bombed heavily before the landings and MANY French died from these bombings).

Edited June 7, 2010 by GreasyDogMeat

[Gorth]

Yet you sit there and condemn them for searching and confiscating goods that could be used to carry out more of those attacks or reacting to ships threatening to run through their blockade.

Well, I sit here and condemn them for not addressing the source of the problem and rather seem to thrive on the conflict. At least as far as the political elite goes.

 

As long as 4+ million people are living as refugees, expelled from their homes and no prospect of ever returning to a "normal life", peace doesn't have much of a chance of happening.

[heathen]

Latest news: Israel has shot four divers on the sea near Gaza. The bodies have gunshot wounds on the head, apparently killed in execution style.

 

Also Israel is refusing to form an international committee to investigate the flotilla incident, despite the fact that foreign civillians were killed and that it happened on international waters.

 

 

@GreasyDogMeat, claiming Israel is the poor victim is bending the truth past credibility. They continue to make new settlements on Palestinian land, continue to blockade Gaza and discriminate agains all non-Jewish citizens of Israel. They're the top dog, you can't blame the status quo on Hamas since Hamas can't really do anything else except shoot a few rockets into Israel that miss their target 90% of the time. I don't mean that what Hamas is doing or preaching is in any way acceptable, however I do think that the only way to end the war is for Israel to back off.

Edited June 7, 2010 by heathen

[Humodour]

Also Israel is refusing to form an international committee to investigate the flotilla incident, despite the fact that foreign civillians were killed and that it happened on international waters.

 

Yeah, I noticed. And this is the clincher for me. The one big opportunity to prove to the world they've been misrepresented (as they claim) and they don't take it. I wonder why?

[Meshugger]

I think i know a plausible reason. Some of the commandos ****ed up and got momentarily captured and even seriously injured, which could be considered as demoralising for the IDF.

 

Prove me wrong fellas.

Edited June 7, 2010 by Gorth
Language

[heathen]

The plot thickens: http://www.guardian.co.uk/world/2010/jun/0...iran-aid-convoy

 

Iran has warned that it could send Revolutionary Guard naval units to escort humanitarian aid convoys seeking to break the Israeli blockade of Gaza a move that would certainly be challenged by Israel.

 

If this is for real and not just empty threats, unless some slick diplomacy is used and soon this could spiral the middle east into an all out war. The US surely cannot afford another active front, so that would leave Israel alone against Iran, a war that's not as easy as beating a few ragged Hamas fighters into submission. Add Turkey or any Arab nation into the mix and Israels future prospects look pretty dark.

Edited June 7, 2010 by heathen

[Cycloneman]

Yep, it would be wrong for me to shoot you in the face with a 12-gauge, out of the blue. I'd probably spend a few long years in jail.

I thoroughly doubt that.

It's funny that it's you of all people that's trying to use this argument, too. The irony is killing me.

Me of all people? What is that supposed to mean?

Pretty cute how, when confronted with the fact that activists may have acted unlawfully, you pretend it's not about "legal matters". Then what is it, right and wrong? Ah, of course -- we can't have little laws getting in the way of the moral righteousness you so proudly hold a monopoly on!

No, I didn't "pretend it's not about legal matters," I made the point that you shouldn't conflate what the Israelis did with a legal action.

Ha, ha. Doesn't matter what I post, as you can just wave your hand and dismiss it as Zionist propaganda. At least two soldiers ended up in a hospital with serious injuries, including but not limited to, gunshot wounds. Look it up. If things didn't go worse for the commandos it's because they were trained to react as they did, and medical attention was provided quickly where needed. Don't be mad at the commandos, just because they aren't as good at dying as the axe-armed "peace activists".

 

"Subdue", lol.

Blah blah blah. If it's so easy to find, why don't you do so?

Hmm. You must have missed the part where I explained how Israel has the right to board ships trying to breach the blockade. There was no robbery except for, perhaps, the one that had as an object your intelligence.

Israel would only have the "right" to board ships trying to breach the blockade, if the blockade itself was legal. And even someone barely literate such as yourself could manage to figure this one out: it's not.

A blockade is a recognized tool of warfare that could allow the stopping and search of a ship on the high seas, but there are a number of requirements. There needs to be an armed conflict; the limits of the blockade need to be defined and properly publicized; and most importantly, a blockade should not proceed if it violates the principle of proportionality, if it inflicts excessive damage on the civilian population in relation to the concrete military advantage expected.

While the other requirements are a bit subjective, the second is not so much: as Israel does not publicize the limits of its blockade, it cannot be legal.

So, the sources you haven't seen (or refuse to accept) simply don't exist, AND the sources you provide are all-encompassing of the truth. Hahaha, okay, your Holiness.

Haha, please, show me a video or photograph of an activist using a firearm or of an axe onboard the ship. Wait, you can't, lol!

[Walsingham]

Blah blah blah. If it's so easy to find, why don't you do so

 

 

From IHH itself.

 

Also, video footage. It's not plausible that this is faked, due to the speed with which it was released.

 

EDIT: video is from the IDF.

Edited June 7, 2010 by Walsingham

[Gfted1]

Lol @ Iran "Revolutionary Guard" naval units. Unless they want to see what their ships look like on the bottom of the ocean I think they better go rattle their sabres at someone less capable then the Israelies. Also, Im curious, where is the rending of cloth and knashing of teeth over the fact that Egypt has maintained the land blockade of Gaza all these years? Oh right, they arent Israel.

[Malcador]

No gnashing of teeth over that because no one died recently related to it. Bleeds, it leads. Pretty sure there are some people out there complaining about it, you're just not hearing them. But yeah, it's really poor Israel.

[Gfted1]

No gnashing of teeth over that because no one died recently related to it.

 

Huh? Havent you read the preceeding pages with links upon links of starving children and nuns? It could even be argued that Egypt is MORE responsible since far more goods can be carried over land then sea.

[heathen]

Also, Im curious, where is the rending of cloth and knashing of teeth over the fact that Egypt has maintained the land blockade of Gaza all these years? Oh right, they arent Israel.

 

It doesn't make Israel any less responsible for the situation.

 

No gnashing of teeth over that because no one died recently related to it.

 

Huh? Havent you read the preceeding pages with links upon links of starving children and nuns? It could even be argued that Egypt is MORE responsible since far more goods can be carried over land then sea.

 

Pardon? Israel has a land connection to Gaza as well. They've actually got 3x more of land border with Gaza than Egypt has.

Edited June 7, 2010 by heathen

[Wrath of Dagon]

I mean after all Israel broke a truce and demolished most of the Gaza infrastructure, killing more innocents than Hamas would have in the same amount of time. To the point that Israel was accused of war crimes, as was Palestinian militants.

The wikipedia link (which in itself is a very biased UN prevention of human rights commission report) does not give any evidence that Israelis broke the truce, in fact it only says the ceasefire was brought to a de-facto end by Israel's use of force on Nov 4, without stating a reason for the use of force.

[heathen]

I mean after all Israel broke a truce and demolished most of the Gaza infrastructure, killing more innocents than Hamas would have in the same amount of time. To the point that Israel was accused of war crimes, as was Palestinian militants.

The wikipedia link (which in itself is a very biased UN prevention of human rights commission report) does not give any evidence that Israelis broke the truce, in fact it only says the ceasefire was brought to a de-facto end by Israel's use of force on Nov 4, without stating a reason for the use of force.

 

Wait, you actually think that the UN is biased against Israel? Or are they just biased for human rights in general?

[Wrath of Dagon]

Yes, the only country which ever violates human rights in UN's view is Israel. If you don't understand how biased (or really hateful) of Israel that association of tyrants and murderers is, you really don't belong in this discussion.

 

Edit:

Israel

The Commission was also criticized for bias against Israel. In 2002 Anne Bayefsky, a professor of international law at York University in Toronto, wrote that "commission members seek to avoid directly criticizing states with human rights problems, frequently by focusing on Israel, a state that, according to analysis of summary records, has for over 30 years occupied 15 percent of commission time and has been the subject of a third of country-specific resolutions."[9]

 

On April 15, 2002, the Commission approved a resolution affirming the right of the Palestinians to fight Israel by "all available means, including armed struggle" in order to achieve independence. In so doing, the Palestinian people was declared "fulfilling its mission, one of the goals and purposes of the United Nations".[10] Of the 53-member commission, 40 countries voted yes and seven abstained. Alfred Moses, a former United States ambassador to the commission and now chairman of the monitoring group UN Watch, said that "A vote in favour of this resolution is a vote for Palestinian terrorism".[11] In a letter to the UNHRC on November 15, 2002, following an attack by Palestinians on Israelis in the town of Hebron, Nabil Ramlawi, the permanent observer for Palestine at the U.N., appealed to the resolution as justification for the attack.[12]

 

[edit] 60th Session controversy

The UNCHR was criticized for failing to apply the charters standards to all-member states. When issues such as the stoning of women, honor killings, mutilations, and the apostasy death penalty were raised during the 60th Session of the UN Commission on Human Rights in 2004, Muslim officials rejected "any criticism as interference in the internal affairs of a sovereign state."[13][14]

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/UN_Human_Rights_Commission

Edited June 7, 2010 by Wrath of Dagon

[Gfted1]

Pardon? Israel has a land connection to Gaza as well. They've actually got 3x more of land border with Gaza than Egypt has.

 

Well, yeah, but you have to get there by sea first if your coming from that direction. Hence their naval blockade.

[213374U]

I thoroughly doubt that.

Yes, well. But it's also been sufficiently proven that your general ignorance is comparable only to your lack of common sense. So you'll understand if I don't take your word as gospel.

 

 

Israel would only have the "right" to board ships trying to breach the blockade, if the blockade itself was legal. And even someone barely literate such as yourself could manage to figure this one out: it's not.

Wrong, again The limits of the blockade extend to encompass *SHOCK!!!* the Gaza Strip.

 

 

Haha, please, show me a video or photograph of an activist using a firearm or of an axe onboard the ship. Wait, you can't, lol!

 

At any rate, I provided documental evidence. Just because you don't like it, doesn't mean it isn't valid (we accept Al-Jazeera, we should accept Israeli papers). Now find me proof they didn't use axes or firearms taken from the soldiers.

Edited June 7, 2010 by 213374U

[heathen]

Yes, the only country which ever violates human rights in UN's view is Israel. If you don't understand how biased (or really hateful) of Israel that association of tyrants and murderers is, you really don't belong in this discussion.

 

Given your track record in this thread I'd say your opinions are skewed to say the least. Dismissing a well documented humanitarian disaster with a link to a picture of a table full of apples for example.

 

I don't see any bias against Israel. I see reports of violations of human rights in Israel, same as I've seen reports of Spain, Mexico and multiple other places.

 

Wikipedia isn't the most trustworthy of sources, but assuming those numbers are right I'd say that apparently the majority of countries in the UN (who are not all muslim) think Israel is in the wrong here, which I agree with. Why they haven't paid more attention to humanitarian disasters in other places is a good question and they well should. That doesn't mean that they should leave Israel alone to commit war crimes and an unlawful blockade and steal the palestinian land.

Edited June 7, 2010 by heathen

[Malcador]

No gnashing of teeth over that because no one died recently related to it.

 

Huh? Havent you read the preceeding pages with links upon links of starving children and nuns? It could even be argued that Egypt is MORE responsible since far more goods can be carried over land then sea.

 

 

Oh, sorry. Thought you meant in the media rather than this particular forum.

[Wrath of Dagon]

Yes, the only country which ever violates human rights in UN's view is Israel. If you don't understand how biased (or really hateful) of Israel that association of tyrants and murderers is, you really don't belong in this discussion.

 

Given your track record in this thread I'd say your opinions are skewed to say the least. Dismissing a well documented humanitarian disaster with a link to a picture of a table full of apples for example.

 

I don't see any bias against Israel. I see reports of violations of human rights in Israel, same as I've seen reports of Spain, Mexico and multiple other places.

It wasn't a table full of apples, it was a whole market full of food. If you can't even understand what you're looking at, read this:

 

Gazans lament where they can't go more than what they can't buy. They also decry the lack of employment -- with no building supplies and few trade possibilities, joblessness is rampant. Once an exporter of fruits and other goods, Gaza has been turned into a mini-welfare state with a broken economy where food and daily goods are plentiful, but where 80 percent of the population depends on charity. Hospitals, schools, electricity systems and sewage treatment facilities are all in deep disrepair.

 

Yet if you walk down Gaza City's main thoroughfare -- Salah al-Din Street -- grocery stores are stocked wall-to-wall with everything from fresh Israeli yogurts and hummus to Cocoa Puffs smuggled in from Egypt. Pharmacies look as well-supplied as a typical Rite Aid in the United States.

http://www.washingtonpost.com/wp-dyn/conte...ST2010060204691