Israel butchers civilians in international waters

[Cycloneman]

Btw, does anyone know if the turkish ship was waving a white flag or not? I have only seen videos of with the turkish flag raised, but not the white flag.

The people on board the ship started waving a white flag

according to an Al Jazeera correspondent on the ship at the time.

[Nemo0071]

Ok, and i take it that you mean morally and politically. But there is the tricky part that i am still searching for. Israel claims to be at war with Hamas, and this is were things get difficult, since the rules of conduct change when you have warring states.

Again; Hamas is not a state. It's an extremist group, believing in whatever they believe, doing whatever they do. No one, except for Hamas, can be held responsible for Hamas' actions.

 

Btw, does anyone know if the turkish ship was waving a white flag or not? I have only seen videos of with the turkish flag raised, but not the white flag.

Does it matter if their goal was to breach the blockade, and they were willing to risk a scuffle, instead of leaving their cargo in Israel's hands?

 

I'm not sure if they were willing to die, however...

[Meshugger]

Cycleman:

 

But was the white flag raised before the boarding?

 

Nemo071:

 

1) But are not Hamas the authoritive figure, representing the local government of Gaza? If that doesn't represent as a soverign, then what is Gaza?

2) If you raise the white flag to the other party, then you are submitting yourself to complete surrender. Raising a white flag and then attacking is a warcrime.

Edited June 3, 2010 by Meshugger

[Nemo0071]

Agreed. Turkey is a fine nation with plenty to be proud about - the AK party are threatening that and seem to me to fly in the face of everything Ataturk stood for. Erdogan has tried to neuter the generals but I daresay a few of them might have 'gone fishing' and has a bit of a chat about how to preserve the secular tradition.

Way to support democracy. Good for you.

[Nemo0071]

1) But are not Hamas the authoritive figure, representing the local government of Gaza? If that doesn't represent as a soverign, then what is Gaza?

2) If you raise the white flag to the other party, then you are submitting yourself to complete surrender. Raising a white flag and then attacking is a warcrime.

1) AFAIK, "Gaza" is a group of civilians living in desperate conditions, being bossed around by both Hamas and Israel. The aid convoy was bringing supplies to those civilians, not Hamas. It was humanitarian aid, not political or military aid.

2) Sorry. Now I see what's been bugging you about the white flag. Like everyone else here, I don't know the exact details, but isn't it possible that the ship had Turkish flag (not intended to stop) and some people (or even one guy) waved a white flag, meaning "ok, that's it for me." ? Like I said, it's too blurry to discuss if you ask me.

[Volourn]

"how did they manage to escape this horrible, life-threatening situation without casualties"

 

Weren't 9 soldiers injured including some seriously? Those are considered casualties.

 

 

"Again; Hamas is not a state. It's an extremist group, believing in whatever they believe, doing whatever they do. No one, except for Hamas, can be held responsible for Hamas' actions."

 

Hamas is the democractically elected government of Palestine. The palestine people want them leadingb them. This, to me, says the Palestine people largely agree with what Hamas does.

Edited June 3, 2010 by Volourn

[Cycloneman]

Hamas is the democractically elected government of Palestine. The palestine people want them leadingb them. This, to me, says the Palestine people largely agree with what Hamas does.

By this quote-unquote "logic," most Americans during the Cold War approved of the systematic overthrow of democratic governments and supplanting them with right-wing autocracies. Check your premises.

[Nemo0071]

"Again; Hamas is not a state. It's an extremist group, believing in whatever they believe, doing whatever they do. No one, except for Hamas, can be held responsible for Hamas' actions."

 

Hamas is the democractically elected government of Palestine. The palestine people want them leadingb them. This, to me, says the Palestine people largely agree with what Hamas does.

I don't know how much of a choice they were given, so I can't answer you on that. But still, does it mean "they got what they deserved"?

 

And besides, if it was "Gaza = Palestine = Hamas = Terrorist" then nations around the world would bomb them all to hell instead of sending them aid, and get it over with.

 

Obviously, it's not that simple.

[Hiro Protagonist]

By this quote-unquote "logic," most Americans during the Cold War approved of the systematic overthrow of democratic governments and supplanting them with right-wing autocracies. Check your premises.

 

I was under the impression that the majority of Americans choose not to vote and therefore probably don't care what the American Government does overseas whatever morally ambigous that might be. In other words, if the American Government overthrows democratic governments, then most Amercians couldn't care less.

[Cycloneman]

I was under the impression that the majority of Americans choose not to vote and therefore probably don't care what the American Government does overseas whatever morally ambigous that might be.

Pretty sure the majority of eligible (not registered) Palestinians don't turn out to vote.

[Orogun01]

I was under the impression that the majority of Americans choose not to vote and therefore probably don't care what the American Government does overseas whatever morally ambigous that might be.

Pretty sure the majority of eligible (not registered) Palestinians don't turn out to vote.

Different motives, Americans don't vote because of laziness or disinterest. Palestinian don't vote out of fear.

[Wrath of Dagon]

Poor starving Gaza: http://www.bivouac-id.com/2009/12/06/atten...s-gaza-affamee/

[Cycloneman]

Poor starving Gaza: http://www.bivouac-id.com/2009/12/06/atten...s-gaza-affamee/

Please tell me that you realize how incredibly and obviously dishonest this is, but simply don't care. Because otherwise... you would have to be very, very foolish.

[Meshugger]

Poor starving Gaza: http://www.bivouac-id.com/2009/12/06/atten...s-gaza-affamee/

 

Could someone translate it? Please?

[Wrath of Dagon]

Poor starving Gaza: http://www.bivouac-id.com/2009/12/06/atten...s-gaza-affamee/

Please tell me that you realize how incredibly and obviously dishonest this is, but simply don't care. Because otherwise... you would have to be very, very foolish.

No, why don't you point out how it's obviously dishonest.

[Cycloneman]

No, why don't you point out how it's obviously dishonest.

There is virtually no society on the entire planet, quite possibly in the entire history of agriculture, where everyone has food insecurity. Some will have much, and others little; the only question is how "little" little is, and in the case of Gaza, it is very little indeed. The fact that you can post a collection of images of people in Gaza who have much means no more than the fact that I can post pictures of well-fed Germans in 1945, or photographs of Kim Jung-il eating a lot.

[Wrath of Dagon]

This is obviously a public market.

[heathen]

This is obviously a public market.

 

You're unbelievably gullible and misguided.

 

The text, translated via google:

 

A picture is worth a thousand words, we continue our series of photos of Gaza, the "concentration camp open skies logorrhea victimhood of the Palestinians, Moslems and their useful idiots. Warning, these pictures may offend unbearable sensitivity palestinomaniaques, and getting the gullible in good faith to put their beliefs into question.

 

While the followers of Fascism and their useful idiots Green monopolize media attention and international funding for the benefit of the Palestinians, breaking all records for per capita aid, people also die - really - of hunger in the indifference fullest. For information, Malnutrition affects one billion people on Earth.

 

Obviously a biased and hateful website. I see no proof that these pictures were a. taken from Gaza or b. in any way representative of the life of the average citizen of Gaza. I have, however, seen hundreds of pictures showing the inhumane conditions and overall misery, from respectable sources.

 

So, Wrath of Dagon, linking us to extremist websites with dubious claims that contradict almost every other source is pretty useless and lame.

Edited June 3, 2010 by heathen

[Meshugger]

heathen: i tried translate.google.com as well, but that thing translates very poorly. That's why i asked about someone translating it.

 

[Nemo0071]

I just watched a similar thing on the news. Activists and their awesome weapons. It would even be funny if there weren't 9 dead people. Nine, according to Israeli sources. Because they're the only "official" source for the incident.

[Wrath of Dagon]

So, Wrath of Dagon, linking us to extremist websites with dubious claims that contradict almost every other source is pretty useless and lame.

You mean contradict your brainwashing.

[Cycloneman]

So, Wrath of Dagon, linking us to extremist websites with dubious claims that contradict almost every other source is pretty useless and lame.

You mean contradict your brainwashing.

Yes, our "brainwashing," also known as facts and evidence. An extremely high proportion of people in the Gaza strip, including children, suffer from negative health effects as a result of malnutrition.

[Wrath of Dagon]

That looks like it's from 2002. Also it requires registration.

[Cycloneman]

That looks like it's from 2002. Also it requires registration.

From 2008:

[C]hronic malnutrition hits 10% of children below five years of age at an increase of 36.0% in comparison with 1996. The situation worsens in Gaza Strip where 50,000 children suffer malnutrition. One-half of the total number of children below 2 years of age suffer anemia and 70% suffer lack of vitamin A.

[mkreku]

So according to Wrath of Moron, there's no blockade against Gaza, because he's seen pictures of tables full of food! That must mean there's enough food for the entire Gaza populace.. on those tables!! Or maybe Israel just sucks at blockading? Maybe there is no war with Hamas after all? Oh, this is all so confusing!

 

That and the entire world (and the UN, since they've condemned Israel for doing it) must be wrong about there even existing a blockade since there are pictures of food.. on a blog.. on the internet.