Theological question

[Hiro Protagonist]

"Don't you know there ain't no devil, there's just God when he's drunk"

 

(Tom Waits)

 

I like Garth Ennis' explanation in the comic Hellblazer. God was both Good and Bad and he took the bad part of himself out of him and into another body being Satan... or something like that.

[Walsingham]

I appreciate your effort in copying it all out, Blank. But if I may say so i don't think you addressed my central question. You say why Satan wants to punish us, but not why God wants to punish Satan.

[obyknven]

I appreciate your effort in copying it all out, Blank. But if I may say so i don't think you addressed my central question. You say why Satan wants to punish us, but not why God wants to punish Satan.

answer here:

http://mcdonaldroad.org/bible/study/lucifer.htm

[Moose]

Are you a religious man Walsh, or are you simply trying to square the circle?

[Orogun01]

I appreciate your effort in copying it all out, Blank. But if I may say so i don't think you addressed my central question. You say why Satan wants to punish us, but not why God wants to punish Satan.

answer here:

http://mcdonaldroad.org/bible/study/lucifer.htm

I don't think the question was answered. All question and answers are "God-centric" while Walsh's question would assume that the fault lies with God and not the Devil, since God is responsible for the Devil which serves him.

 

BTW, their organist and helper analogy was completely wrong. In any case God would be the organist and the Devil the helper.

[obyknven]

God as a game designer has provided all possible elections, the devil with free will as a gamer chooses a sentence. God is not responsible for the actions of the Devil. Responsibility for the selection lie at the gamer ... ie devil.

[Orogun01]

God as a game designer has provided all possible elections, the devil with free will as a gamer chooses a sentence. God is not responsible for the actions of the Devil. Responsibility for the selection lie at the gamer ... ie devil.

As a creator you have a responsibility for your creations; free will aside, the quality and purpose lie at the creator's hands. BTW, your analogy does support your case; the game designer is responsible for the AI which is what the Devil is: God's creation.

[obyknven]

You are heretic! Burn!

[Amentep]

This is a debate intended to work internally to the subject, rather than question the external validity of the subject to the world at large. SO NO F***ING RELIGION BASHING!

 

My interest concerns Satan, and the Fall. It's an interesting point for a variety of reasons, but I have a specific interest today.

 

For many years I took the view that Satan's fall is evidence of God's perversity. Satan, being an angel, has no free will. Combining his lack of free will with God's total awareness must logically mean that God knew with perfect certainty that when he made Satan he would fall. But despite serving as intended, God punishes Satan. Which I've always felt is like somebody locking a dog in a room for three days then beating it for urinating in the corner. Or more directly, dropping a rock, then kicking it for hitting the ground.

 

HOWEVER, we were discussing this last night and a thought occurred. God need not be regarded as possessing perfect knowledge of his creation. Because - in theory - he gave Man free will. This could let God off the hook, but at the same time it raises an interesting point. In order for God to be acquitted of the charge of perverse sadism WE have to take responsibility for committing some act he did not foresee which would have known would lead to Satan's fall. Now, I accept that we may not have known that standing on one leg, saying 'carrot' or turning slightly to the left could provoke the rebellion of a chunk of angels, but did it we might have done.

 

Further to letting god off the charge of being a total s***, there are two points arising.

 

1. It's no wonder Satan wants to punish us.

2. Using this defence means God's legal team formally recognise our right to freedom of choice, AND still more interestingly that God cannot and does not know our every action. I say this because having perfect knowledge of Satan means he would know the consequences of any change to Satan's environment. Monkey see, monkey do, if you like. So in oredr to not foresee and - one would hope - peacefully pre-empt the Fall God would have to be very ignorant of what WE were up to. Otherwise he'd be able to come in, and show Satan a kitten or whatever would calm him back down.

 

Psalm 103:20: "Bless the LORD, ye his angels, that excel in strength, that do his commandments, hearkening unto the voice of his word. Bless ye the LORD, all ye his hosts; ye ministers of his, that do his pleasure."

 

The Angels have free will but have a very specific role in Heaven serving God; if they didn't have free will there would be no need to voice His word (as their will would be His).

 

God's omnipotence vs Free Will isn't mutually exclusive since God created Time, He presumably exits outside of time and can know the choices we make with our Free Will and has always known the choices we'll make (from his perspective we will, are and have acted). Therefore an angel could rebel against God and therefore need to be punished based on whatever decision was made by God in terms of punishment; the choice would be Satan's alone, but God would already have known his choice because from God's perspective the choice had already been made.

[Orogun01]

God's omnipotence vs Free Will isn't mutually exclusive since God created Time, He presumably exits outside of time and can know the choices we make with our Free Will and has always known the choices we'll make (from his perspective we will, are and have acted). Therefore an angel could rebel against God and therefore need to be punished based on whatever decision was made by God in terms of punishment; the choice would be Satan's alone, but God would already have known his choice because from God's perspective the choice had already been made.

 

So, God is a fatalist?

[Amentep]

God's omnipotence vs Free Will isn't mutually exclusive since God created Time, He presumably exits outside of time and can know the choices we make with our Free Will and has always known the choices we'll make (from his perspective we will, are and have acted). Therefore an angel could rebel against God and therefore need to be punished based on whatever decision was made by God in terms of punishment; the choice would be Satan's alone, but God would already have known his choice because from God's perspective the choice had already been made.

 

So, God is a fatalist?

 

Fatalism would imply that time matters and reality is directed towards a known outcome; but from God's perspective time doesn't exist because he created time. There is no set outcome (a tenant of fatalism) but for God the outcome exists because all that time encompasses has already done so. Its really Compatibilism.

Edited April 6, 2010 by Amentep

[Orogun01]

God's omnipotence vs Free Will isn't mutually exclusive since God created Time, He presumably exits outside of time and can know the choices we make with our Free Will and has always known the choices we'll make (from his perspective we will, are and have acted). Therefore an angel could rebel against God and therefore need to be punished based on whatever decision was made by God in terms of punishment; the choice would be Satan's alone, but God would already have known his choice because from God's perspective the choice had already been made.

 

So, God is a fatalist?

 

Fatalism would imply that time matters and reality is directed towards a known outcome; but from God's perspective time doesn't exist because he created time. There is no set outcome (a tenant of fatalism) but for God the outcome exists because all that time encompasses has already done so. Its really Compatibilism.

Ohhhh . . . so he is a nihilist.

[213374U]

the choice would be Satan's alone, but God would already have known his choice because from God's perspective the choice had already been made.

Umm. If God is possessed of both omniscience and the quality of existing outside of time you ascribe to him (I agree with that, as it makes everything even more absurd), it all amounts to Him dropping a stone and then kicking it afterwards, in punishment for falling. He would have known before creating Satan that he would disobey and be punished. Ergo, no free will at all -- either He cannot predict what His creations will do (back to the irresistible force paradox), or He created Satan knowing he would betray Him.

 

Of course, if God exists outside of the realm of logic...

Edited April 7, 2010 by 213374U

[Nemo0071]

Umm. If God is possessed of both omniscience and the quality of existing outside of time you ascribe to him (I agree with that, as it makes everything even more absurd), it all amounts to Him dropping a stone and then kicking it afterwards, in punishment for falling. He would have known before creating Satan that he would disobey and be punished. Ergo, no free will at all -- either He cannot predict what His creations will do (back to the irresistible force paradox), or He created Satan knowing he would betray Him.

 

Of course, if God exists outside of the realm of logic...

 

Arghh... I can't resist the urge to get involved.

 

So here goes. First of all:

 

the choice would be Satan's alone, but God would already have known his choice because from God's perspective the choice had already been made.

This. The fact that God knows what someone will do doesn't necessarily conflict with free will, i.e. personal choices. Satan can make his choices, so can we; this is free will. God knowing about them before we do them is a different matter; something about being all-powerful & all-knowing and all that good stuff.

 

Of course, if God exists outside of the realm of logic...

Yes, actually He does exist outside of "the realm of logic" as we know it. If He was something more understandable/comprehensible/tangible, like, say, the superhuman gods of Greek mythology (e.g. Zeus), then He would be more human/whatever and less "God", wouldn't He?

 

I am of course referring to the "God" in Muslim and Christian beliefs.

[Tigranes]

Of course, if God exists outside of the realm of logic...

 

Of course he does. Nobody ever said he didn't.

[Amentep]

God's omnipotence vs Free Will isn't mutually exclusive since God created Time, He presumably exits outside of time and can know the choices we make with our Free Will and has always known the choices we'll make (from his perspective we will, are and have acted). Therefore an angel could rebel against God and therefore need to be punished based on whatever decision was made by God in terms of punishment; the choice would be Satan's alone, but God would already have known his choice because from God's perspective the choice had already been made.

 

So, God is a fatalist?

 

Fatalism would imply that time matters and reality is directed towards a known outcome; but from God's perspective time doesn't exist because he created time. There is no set outcome (a tenant of fatalism) but for God the outcome exists because all that time encompasses has already done so. Its really Compatibilism.

Ohhhh . . . so he is a nihilist.

 

What makes you think that? If God exists and created us, then surely that is the very definition of life given purpose and intrinsic value, is it not? I don't think nihilism really works with theology.

 

 

the choice would be Satan's alone, but God would already have known his choice because from God's perspective the choice had already been made.

Umm. If God is possessed of both omniscience and the quality of existing outside of time you ascribe to him (I agree with that, as it makes everything even more absurd), it all amounts to Him dropping a stone and then kicking it afterwards, in punishment for falling. He would have known before creating Satan that he would disobey and be punished. Ergo, no free will at all -- either He cannot predict what His creations will do (back to the irresistible force paradox), or He created Satan knowing he would betray Him.

 

Of course, if God exists outside of the realm of logic...

 

Knowing that Satan will betray him does not equal creating Satan to betray him. That he creates a creature that of its free will will betray him and that he knows that Satan will, is and did betray him does not negate that it was Satan who chose to betray him.

 

The thing you're assuming is that God created Satan to do something. Knowing that someone will do something because it has already happened is different from knowing that someone will do something because you've given them no choice.

 

Imagine you invent a time machine and go in the future and find out all the details of your future son's life. You then travel back in time and produce the son in question - have you robbed him of his free will just because you know what he'll choose to do? Or do you know the result of his free will thanks to knowledge based in being able to move outside of time? To my mind the son is still free to choose the path he wants; you just happen to know what the end result of those choices will be before he makes them. If then your son at the age of three needs to be punished, have you created him just so you punish him? Or do you punish him because of the choices he made? Certainly I think the later.

 

Knowledge of outcomes to my mind does not negate the free will choices made prior to the outcomes - hence the philosophy of compatiblism. You're mileage may vary, of course.

[Walsingham]

Are you a religious man Walsh, or are you simply trying to square the circle?

 

I don't consider myslf religious. But I have met and admired numerous religious men, from buddhist monk to Anglican vicars. On the other hand, they say there's no atheists in foxholes, and so far as I've faced death on a number of occasions I can confirm this.

 

The point of this debate, though, was just for the mental workout of debating the internal logic of the statement.

[213374U]

This. The fact that God knows what someone will do doesn't necessarily conflict with free will, i.e. personal choices. Satan can make his choices, so can we; this is free will. God knowing about them before we do them is a different matter; something about being all-powerful & all-knowing and all that good stuff.

If He knows, then it's predestination -- choices aren't yours at all, any more than a rock "chooses" to obey gravity. The rock is most definitely not aware that gravity is about to ruin its day, but it will.

 

The idea goes that God created all. He did it in a way that would result in an "end state" that He knew even "before" He started (he exists outside of time, remember), by virtue of His omniscience and timelessness. The outcome of everything is the result of how He created the universe which is finite, among other things, in information. Had He wanted a different outcome through a different path, He would have made things differently at the beginning. God may exist outside causality, but that doesn't seem to be the case with our universe. And that's assuming a "hands-off" scenario! What you are suggesting is that Satan and, by extension, us, had an illusion of free will.

 

Illusions are nice, but try and quench your thirst in a mirage.

 

 

Yes, actually He does exist outside of "the realm of logic" as we know it. If He was something more understandable/comprehensible/tangible, like, say, the superhuman gods of Greek mythology (e.g. Zeus), then He would be more human/whatever and less "God", wouldn't He?

Yeah, I was being sarcastic. I know that's the theologian's #1 rule: God is unknowable, unfathomable, and a whole bunch of other "un-"s, heh.

 

The problem is that accepting that makes this debate and any related completely pointless -- the guys with the "holy gifts" will always win, because they say so. Even if what they say makes no sense whatsoever. Especially if what they say makes no sense whatsoever.

 

Good work, guys. I want my ten minutes back.

[213374U]

Imagine you invent a time machine and go in the future and find out all the details of your future son's life. You then travel back in time and produce the son in question - have you robbed him of his free will just because you know what he'll choose to do? Or do you know the result of his free will thanks to knowledge based in being able to move outside of time?

The analogy fails in that I am not God (shocking, I know!). I am not omnipotent, which means that my control over what my son will be is woefully limited. Furthermore, unlike God, I cannot configure the conditions of the universe in advance, which means I don't know how these conditions will influence my son. If you say that God simply pressed the "randomise" button at Satan's character creation screen, a conflict arises with his omniscience, and we are back to the irresistible force paradox.

 

 

The point of this debate, though, was just for the mental workout of debating the internal logic of the statement.

You enjoy watching people crash and burn?

[Pidesco]

Of course, if God exists outside of the realm of logic...

 

Of course he does. Nobody ever said he didn't.

 

 

Actually, acording to the Gospel of St. John, God is the Logos so I'd argue that God can't exist outside of logic.

[Nemo0071]

If He knows, then it's predestination -- choices aren't yours at all, any more than a rock "chooses" to obey gravity. The rock is most definitely not aware that gravity is about to ruin its day, but it will.

Ahh, but what I'm saying is, af far as my beliefs go, creatures with free will (in this case, Satan) have an "exception". You see, while the action of the rock (falling down) is predetermined by gravity, it's not the same with those who have free will. They are given choices (unlike a rock). Even choices to "work around" the predetermined rules of the game (e.g. flight, in this case).

Edited April 7, 2010 by Nemo0071

[Orogun01]

What makes you think that? If God exists and created us, then surely that is the very definition of life given purpose and intrinsic value, is it not? I don't think nihilism really works with theology.

Life and purpose have as much value as one applies to them; the reason is that from God's perspective, knowing every outcome and every possibility would mean that either everything happens for a reason or else nothing has meaning. If all of the events that have transpired are working to a greater goal, because of their influence on one person and those ripples eventually influencing mankind. If God isn't a fatalist because there is no set outcome to human events and all works towards no end, ergo nihilist.

 

Knowing that Satan will betray him does not equal creating Satan to betray him. That he creates a creature that of its free will will betray him and that he knows that Satan will, is and did betray him does not negate that it was Satan who chose to betray him.

Just like knowing that your son is going to kill someone does not equate to you putting the gun on his hand. The matter is not if God created Satan's faulty or not, God could had avoided the events but didn't. Probably because he took the Devil's bet that mankind aren't worthy, but the intent for such as thing would bring God to human level.

The thing you're assuming is that God created Satan to do something. Knowing that someone will do something because it has already happened is different from knowing that someone will do something because you've given them no choice.

 

Imagine you invent a time machine and go in the future and find out all the details of your future son's life. You then travel back in time and produce the son in question - have you robbed him of his free will just because you know what he'll choose to do? Or do you know the result of his free will thanks to knowledge based in being able to move outside of time? To my mind the son is still free to choose the path he wants; you just happen to know what the end result of those choices will be before he makes them. If then your son at the age of three needs to be punished, have you created him just so you punish him? Or do you punish him because of the choices he made? Certainly I think the later.

 

Knowledge of outcomes to my mind does not negate the free will choices made prior to the outcomes - hence the philosophy of compatiblism. You're mileage may vary, of course.

The son in question is not free, because his father has looked at the future and every action that the father will take is influenced by that view. The choices that the father takes afterwards could change the son's future. If the son future rest on the father's influence, where is his free will?

Compatibilism requires an amount of "self-reference" in order to work, the son must be aware of every choice he makes (even the unconscious ones) in order to truly have free will. Otherwise he is just following a set of predetermined events.

[Tigranes]

Actually, acording to the Gospel of St. John, God is the Logos so I'd argue that God can't exist outside of logic.

 

Logos is not logic; it's quite different, especially depending on its context of use. My ancient Greek is limited but in most interpretations, λόγος in the bible loosely refers to the order of God, the divinely mandated way of things, or, as we say now, the Word of God. That only really confirms the familiar religious assertion that God is above all rules because his rules are the ones that matter, not that God is 'logical' in the sense of modern Western logic.

 

On that thought, and this is for numbers - I think we get so hung up by, way too hung up by, the argument of whether God is 'above' or 'exempt from' some man-defined law or not. We get so hung up on it, that when the conclusion is that God simply is not defined by all of our science and logic and common sense and whatnot, God seems all the more un-real; he just seems to be a giant, well, deus ex machina, can-do-anything-your-rules-don't-abide-nya-nya. But I think this only happens because we look at it from a flawed perspective, a perspective that is sort of guaranteed to make the idea of God sound stupid by default.

 

Key point is, God isn't 'lawless'. God does have rules and order and a logic of his own (i.e. the logos in the bible). The point is not that God is outside human logic, the point is that God has divine logic and it takes precedence for Christians (and I guess Muslims?). Maybe that's still not palatable at all for some. That's fine. I'm not exactly a no-turning-back born-again devout believer myself, more trying it out. I just think "God doesn't make sense according to contemporary logic" isn't really a valid reason for dismissing him.

 

Of course, practically speaking, we're always going to end up using contemporary logic and other built-in judgmental processes to understand God, so it is a bit of a dead end. Not too sure about that myself. But just wanted to unravel this and say God not following our logic doesn't make him any more unlikely.

[213374U]

Semantics. There is no difference between "existing outside of logic" and "being subject to divine logic". Both are the same useless cop-out, as the point is to make the listener blindly believe whatever the dude with the funny hat says, as his only and best defense (reason) is declared illegal. I have no problem with faith itself. But when people try to hide under the guise of reason what is by definition unreasonable, I get grumpy.

Edited April 7, 2010 by 213374U

[Tigranes]

*shrug* If you're determined to see it that way. The point is not that you should accept this as viable or 'reasonable' - but that God is not defined around being a bunch of 'un-'s, but is defined around a very focused set of core values and principles.

 

I think you could much more easily accuse God of being an unreasonable being abusing his exemption clauses if he had a direct hand in human affairs and kept telling us what to do with this and that.