Civilization V

[Thorton_AP]

What i don't really GET is how you get concentration of force if you have no stacking.

Same way real armies have it, several units in formation with firepower that jumps over the frontliners.

 

The problem with that concept is each hex is, roughly, a few hundred square miles. Granted its been awhile since I was in the military but I am pretty sure I could fit a few divisions, comfortably, in that sized area. Look at WW2 and the European theater for example and how many divisions and brigades were in a very small area. If there were micro maps and each hex a few square miles then I can swallow this. But looking and the size of the hex in relation to the world map size I can't don't follow that logic nor find it very realistic.

 

If stacking an infinite amount of units in the space and the rest of old Civ's combat mechanics is more realistic for you, then that's fine. All I care is that it's more fun, which it is.

 

Played during lunch as the Germans. Saved to the Steam Cloud so it's there when I get home

 

Gifted Venice and they're providing my empire with food. Currently building a settler to expand towards a a nice little spot on the sea. Friends with Washington and Catherine, and conspiring with the Russians against the Ottomans (per Catherine's request). Was sad that I felt guilty after a while for not working hahaha.

[Nightshape]

I'm deliberately not trying the demo, lest I fall in love with it, which in return might ruin my life.

 

Hell, I'm tempted to BUY IT for you...

[Thorton_AP]

I have a friend on the fence that I'm thinking about buying it for as well XD

[TheHarlequin]

What i don't really GET is how you get concentration of force if you have no stacking.

Same way real armies have it, several units in formation with firepower that jumps over the frontliners.

 

The problem with that concept is each hex is, roughly, a few hundred square miles. Granted its been awhile since I was in the military but I am pretty sure I could fit a few divisions, comfortably, in that sized area. Look at WW2 and the European theater for example and how many divisions and brigades were in a very small area. If there were micro maps and each hex a few square miles then I can swallow this. But looking and the size of the hex in relation to the world map size I can't don't follow that logic nor find it very realistic.

 

If stacking an infinite amount of units in the space and the rest of old Civ's combat mechanics is more realistic for you, then that's fine. All I care is that it's more fun, which it is.

 

 

So you don't care about realism.. fair enough. Certainly entitled to that opinion.

 

It simply urks me they are trying to emulate large scale battles using small scale tactics on the map.

[Calax]

I don't think you could fit 8 million men into one tile either.

 

That said, the game does make for interesting stuff... I think you're gonna want to go for Commerce(?) first in your pathways because it drops the necessary culture for future policy selections.

[Enoch]

AAAAANNNNDDD it's decrypting on steam... slowly

That's the stage I'm at. Sadly, I had to work until about 8PM on the day it releases. Might not get much further than starting a game and exploring the menus, options, feedback, etc., tonight.

[TheHarlequin]

I don't think you could fit 8 million men into one tile either.

 

That said, the game does make for interesting stuff... I think you're gonna want to go for Commerce(?) first in your pathways because it drops the necessary culture for future policy selections.

 

Well no. I agree the unlimited extreme is just as unrealistic as 1 per tile. I would liked to see a middle ground. 3 per tile limit I think would have been fine. Still give large scale battle feel but not the unlimited units issues. The unlimited unit issues is moot in civ5 from what I understand anyways, hex limit or not.. as your units are limited by the number of natural resources you have if I recall the dev diary correctly. So pumping out unlimited units couldn't happen anyways.

[Tigranes]

I agree in general about the weirdity of small scale tactical logic being played out in big spaces, but I don't think that's a good compromise gameplay-wise. The whole point of getting rid of stacks was to (a) reduce the number of units you have to deal with, (b) make terrain/space matter, © differentiate units instead of having one stack doing all jobs... and a 3-limit wouldn't really do as much.

 

I think it's just the question of scale in Civilization as a whole - a problem that you can't really solve without turning everything upside down, and thus will enver be solved. Civ's combat is Civ's combat, a world of its own, and if you find it fun go for it. I don't think they could bring properly scaled combat with good gameplay without reworking it a lot (crude example would be dividing 1 hex into ~6 or whatever for units).

[pmp10]

I agree in general about the weirdity of small scale tactical logic being played out in big spaces, but I don't think that's a good compromise gameplay-wise. The whole point of getting rid of stacks was to (a) reduce the number of units you have to deal with, (b) make terrain/space matter,

[Thorton_AP]

So you don't care about realism.. fair enough. Certainly entitled to that opinion.

 

It simply urks me they are trying to emulate large scale battles using small scale tactics on the map.

 

I like realism. But I like this combat system a ton more than the old stack of doom which was neither particularly interesting, nor realistic, that existed in the old games.

 

 

The unlimited unit issues is moot in civ5 from what I understand anyways, hex limit or not.. as your units are limited by the number of natural resources you have if I recall the dev diary correctly. So pumping out unlimited units couldn't happen anyways.

 

Only if the unit requires a resource. Not all units require resources (thoughout all eras). Furthermore, it's still possible to acquire a large number of those resources (just looking around, there's several horse resources near where I am, and they all seem to have 2 or 4 of the resource).

Edited September 22, 2010 by Thorton_AP

[Nightshape]

I have a friend on the fence that I'm thinking about buying it for as well XD

 

I think you need to look closely at what I wrote.

[TheHarlequin]

I agree in general about the weirdity of small scale tactical logic being played out in big spaces, but I don't think that's a good compromise gameplay-wise. The whole point of getting rid of stacks was to (a) reduce the number of units you have to deal with, (b) make terrain/space matter,

[RPGmasterBoo]

The only thing I want to know is, what of the other segments of the game, apart from combat - have they been dumbed down from Civ 4 level?

 

I was always a builder/expander/researcher, turn based combat never interested me much. On this hinges my decision whether to buy the game.

[Calax]

Only if the unit requires a resource. Not all units require resources (thoughout all eras). Furthermore, it's still possible to acquire a large number of those resources (just looking around, there's several horse resources near where I am, and they all seem to have 2 or 4 of the resource).

Horses and iron is one thing. I had a total of four aluminum (one is used for every unit, building, or wonder you produce) rather than anything else, and probably... half or more of the units you can produce in the future/modern eras are based around that ONE resource. And by four I meant I had one node, there were only two or three others on the entire map. Overall it just felt limiting because you had to A) pick between unit or building, and B) pick which unit or building you wanted to play with... a hydro power plant? Gunship? Modern armor? Space factory? Pick one. For the power plant there are alternatives (Solar in late game, along with nuclear) but the other three (and a dozen things I'm forgetting) you have to have aluminum and they use 1 of your resources.

 

Other resources create more significant bottlenecks. Coal is needed for Factories and workshops require iron to be produced. you don't have these and you have significantly less production than you should slowing your entire army's creation down.

 

Also, there is one walker... the Death Walker (not kidding). Sucker is the strongest thing on the field but gets a disadvantage against cities. It's still twice as strong as a Mech Inf tho.

[Starwars]

EDIT: Wrong topic lollergagz

Edited September 22, 2010 by Starwars

[Thorton_AP]

Yeah the Giant Death Robot is future tech.

 

To be fair Calax, I did jump prematurely because I haven't gotten other techs yet myself. Just about to unlock coal.

[Deraldin]

Damn never ending peace treaty. I'm stuck at peace with Japan and have been this way for a good 100+ turns now. I have all my units arrayed right on his border ready to slaughter him (infantry/artillery vs musketmen/trebuchets), but no matter what I do, I can't seem to declare war against him. This continent is mine dammit!

[Malcador]

Hm, played the World map and ended up as Rome where Carthage is supposed to be. Odd, but seems slower on Marathon than Civ 4, might just be my perception.

[Tale]

So, how's the late game? Does it have wacky future technologies?

[Enoch]

Last night was my first "Civ V kept me up too late" night.

 

Kissing up to City States is a very powerful strategy. For example, just being "friendly" with a Maritime City State gets you +1 food in every city, and +2 in your capital. Get a start with two of them nearby, build trading posts or mines instead of farms, and buy your population growth from them! Also, the cost for bribing a militaristic City State (who will donate a unit to you every 10-ish turns) is pretty cheap when compared to buying units yourself.

 

Production is hard to come by. Stuff gets made much more slowly, and while there are ways to get more Gold and Food through diplomacy, city improvements, etc., it's not as easy to generate more Production. I find myself buying a lot of my production with Gold.

 

Golden Ages are pretty frequent, at least on the lower difficulty levels. They have the same bonus as in Civ IV-- +1 production and +1 gold in every tile that already produces at least one prod/gold. Thus, it's best to improve tiles in such a way that they produce a little bit of everything, rather than a lot of one thing. Two "2 food, 1 gold, 1 prod" tiles are more valuable than a "2 food 2 gold" tile plus a "2 food 2 prod" tile, because the former will get a lot more out of your frequent Golden Ages. Oddly enough, this (combined with the two above paragraphs) reverses the trend in past Civ games-- brown "plains" tiles (unimproved: 1 food, 1 prod) are more useful than green "grassland" tiles (unimproved: 2 food).

 

There is almost no 'land grab' as in past Civ games. The AIs I've been running into have been content to sit at 1-3 cities through the Middle Ages.

 

Given that Social Policy trees unlock based on the technological "Age" you're in, there's an added incentive to "beeline" techs rather than progress evenly along all branches of the Tech tree. Also, looking at the social policies available, if you're not being pressed by Barbarians or pushing for early war with an AI, you might be best served by skipping the 3 ancient age Policy trees and saving your culture points for something like Piety or Patronage.

Edited September 24, 2010 by Enoch

[Thorton_AP]

The last two nights were "Civ V has kept me up too late" nights XD

 

 

EDIT: I was playing with the Liberty tree. I like the bonuses that cities get from it. The quicker growth is nice to start as well. But +1 culture and +1 production just for the city as a passive I liked a lot, especially in the early game.

Edited September 24, 2010 by Thorton_AP

[Calax]

it should be pointed out that every time you get a city your culture price jacks up by a % for the next policy. So Ghandi due to his power, will have 3-5 MASSIVE cities, and quick policy creation.

[SadExchange]

Last night was my first "Civ V kept me up too late" night.

 

Kissing up to City States is a very powerful strategy. For example, just being "friendly" with a Maritime City State gets you +1 food in every city, and +2 in your capital. Get a start with two of them nearby, build trading posts or mines instead of farms, and buy your population growth from them! Also, the cost for bribing a militaristic City State (who will donate a unit to you every 10-ish turns) is pretty cheap when compared to buying units yourself.

 

Production is hard to come by. Stuff gets made much more slowly, and while there are ways to get more Gold and Food through diplomacy, city improvements, etc., it's not as easy to generate more Production. I find myself buying a lot of my production with Gold.

 

Golden Ages are pretty frequent, at least on the lower difficulty levels. They have the same bonus as in Civ IV-- +1 production and +1 gold in every tile that already produces at least one prod/gold. Thus, it's best to improve tiles in such a way that they produce a little bit of everything, rather than a lot of one thing. Two "2 food, 1 gold, 1 prod" tiles are more valuable than a "2 food 2 gold" tile plus a "2 food 2 prod" tile, because the former will get a lot more out of your frequent Golden Ages. Oddly enough, this (combined with the two above paragraphs) reverses the trend in past Civ games-- brown "plains" tiles (unimproved: 1 food, 1 prod) are more useful than green "grassland" tiles (unimproved: 2 food).

 

There is almost no 'land grab' as in past Civ games. The AIs I've been running into have been content to sit at 1-3 cities through the Middle Ages.

 

Given that Social Policy trees unlock based on the technological "Age" you're in, there's an added incentive to "beeline" techs rather than progress evenly along all branches of the Tech tree. Also, looking at the social policies available, if you're not being pressed by Barbarians or pushing for early war with an AI, you might be best served by skipping the 3 ancient age Policy trees and saving your culture points for something like Piety or Patronage.

 

This has been quite helpful as I haven't played Civ IV in a while and the idea of city states is brand new. I have a question though, I've played a few hours and had a couple questions. Is there a difference between being "friendly" with a city state than an "ally" or is that the same thing? Also, a city state near me I was friendly with had iron that I sorely needed, but didn't know how to get it from them to use in my own production. I tried making a road from my capitol to their city, but could not force my workers to do so, so I ended up taking over their city and using it as a puppet while gaining the use of the iron.

 

You said earlier if you are friendly with a city state, you gain a +1 food in every city, and +2 in your capital, how do you know you're getting this? Are you getting the +1 from their tiles or my own tiles? Thanks for your help.

[Calax]

This has been quite helpful as I haven't played Civ IV in a while and the idea of city states is brand new. I have a question though, I've played a few hours and had a couple questions. Is there a difference between being "friendly" with a city state than an "ally" or is that the same thing? Also, a city state near me I was friendly with had iron that I sorely needed, but didn't know how to get it from them to use in my own production. I tried making a road from my capitol to their city, but could not force my workers to do so, so I ended up taking over their city and using it as a puppet while gaining the use of the iron.

 

You said earlier if you are friendly with a city state, you gain a +1 food in every city, and +2 in your capital, how do you know you're getting this? Are you getting the +1 from their tiles or my own tiles? Thanks for your help.

There is a difference between "friendly" and "allied". Allied city states give you things like units and resources, while friendly city states basically just give you an open borders agreement. Also the city itself will reflect the extra food in it's own production. There are several buildings that add food to the cities own tile rather than those around it. Granary and windmill being two of them.

[Maria Caliban]

The AIs I've been running into have been content to sit at 1-3 cities through the Middle Ages.

 

Yeah, I didn't have that luck against the Glory That Was Rome. Persia was a [jerk] who refused to even open borders with me, so I let Rome fight him. He ended up with 5 cities and a city state under his control while I had four cities and the Native Americans had four as well. He declared war on the Native Americans so I figured this would be the time to act against him, and promptly got bootstomped by a swarm of Roman Legionares.

 

I sent my swordsman to an unoccupied city and quickly learned of one of the larger changes in the game.