Dragon Age discussion

[Maria Caliban]

"Besides, outside of Elder Scroll type open world games, Dragon Age is very long. It's the biggest BioWare game since BG 2, and one of the longest RPGs I've ever played."

 

O RLY? DA is 58 hours. 10 hours more than ME2 (and ME1). BG2 is less than 100 hours (contrary to BIO and BG2 fanboys balony claims of it being 2 billion hours long, loolz). Yeah, the games are amongst the longest but that's because most games tend to be 30 hours or shorter. If you are lucky.

 

I like the fact that you're dismissing my statement while simultaneously agreeing with it.

[RPGmasterBoo]

LMAO Nobody who reads your post will ever go away with that impression. It's hialrious you claim that. Have you even read your posts about ME, ME2, DA, and otehr BIO games sans BG series? LMAO

 

A game can be good regardless of whether I like it or not. Grow up.

[RPGmasterBoo]

"Besides, outside of Elder Scroll type open world games, Dragon Age is very long. It's the biggest BioWare game since BG 2, and one of the longest RPGs I've ever played."

 

O RLY? DA is 58 hours. 10 hours more than ME2 (and ME1). BG2 is less than 100 hours (contrary to BIO and BG2 fanboys balony claims of it being 2 billion hours long, loolz). Yeah, the games are amongst the longest but that's because most games tend to be 30 hours or shorter. If you are lucky.

 

I like the fact that you're dismissing my statement while simultaneously agreeing with it.

 

Plus the gross misrepresentation, since ME2 and ME1 take about 25 hours to see absolutely all of their content.

[Tigranes]

I never understood this obsession with ignoring the main plot if you want. To me it's a pointless 'feature' that actually doesn't add any gameplay - it's a spawn of the discourse of freeform gameplay, not the actual logic of freeform gameplay.

 

Think about it. If you don't want to chase down Irenicus, and if you don't want to rescue Imoen, why are you playing BG2? If you don't want to fight the Blight or go after Loghain, why are you playing Dragon Age? I don't get it. It's like turning up to a F1 driving range and saying you don't want to race, you just want to get in your car and play house.

 

Make no mistake. It's cool that in BG2 you can dump Imoen's ass as soon as you 'rescue' her (if it was made in 2009 you might have been forced with her, Shandra-style). It's cool that you don't have to take Yoshimo and fall for his trap, there are other ways the story pans out. It's cool that in DA you have 'multiple solutions' to the final kill-the-dragon problem. But is it really that important that you have the option of saying 'screw that, I'm not going to chase down my killer OR rescue my childhood friend OR get revenge and just ignore these important things happening in my life'? Why? In Oblivion what changes if you 'choose' not to, uh, deal with this incredibly important thing that will result in the end of the world (and your life too) forever? Nothing changes. You just have one less questline.

 

Why not put in the effort towards multiple solutions and accounting for multiple motivations (as is reasonable) within the assumption that you have to rescue the world? Arcanum allowed you to defy your own prophecy and join the bad guys. Fallout, too, allowed you to join the Master or defeat him. Isn't it much more important, logical and fun to be able to make reasonably realistic choices of your own within the general narrative, instead of just being able to say 'screw it all'?

[Volourn]

"I like the fact that you're dismissing my statement while simultaneously agreeing with it. "

 

Impressive ain't it?

 

P.S. ES games are about an hour long. At least that's how long i cna stand before throwing them in the trash. Except for Oblivion as I skipped that entirely.

 

 

"Plus the gross misrepresentation, since ME2 and ME1 take about 25 hours to see absolutely all of their content. "

 

Nope. they took just under 50 hours. I play games to play games not to finish them ASAP. It's not an exam but sioemthing i do for fun so I have fun. If I'm not having fun, I quit and waste as little time as possible.

 

Then again, you'll probably claim BG2 was 500 hours long. HAHAHAHA!

 

 

 

"Think about it. If you don't want to chase down Irenicus, and if you don't want to rescue Imoen, why are you playing BG2? If you don't want to fight the Blight or go after Loghain, why are you playing Dragon Age? I don't get it. It's like turning up to a F1 driving range and saying you don't want to race, you just want to get in your car and play house."

 

100% agree with you. Why play soemthing you aren't enjoying. Does. not. compute.

Edited February 16, 2010 by Volourn

[RPGmasterBoo]

But is it really that important that you have the option of saying 'screw that, I'm not going to chase down my killer OR rescue my childhood friend OR get revenge and just ignore these important things happening in my life'? Why? In Oblivion what changes if you 'choose' not to, uh, deal with this incredibly important thing that will result in the end of the world (and your life too) forever? Nothing changes. You just have one less questline.

 

You did not read the discussion carefully. It wasn't about a lack of options it was about lack of compelling reasons to follow the existing options. I argued that the way you were pulled into the GW was horrible and contradictory, and as a result makes the PC's attitude during the main quest slightly ridiculous. Gromnir argued chasing Imoen was no more compelling. I disagreed since I felt it was a more personal/original touch, in what is in general a more personal plot. That made it more compelling for me. I could not identify with a PC that walks so easily over such grievances inflicted on him to become everyones hero, but I could identify with a PC who'd go out of his way to help a friend in need (sister actually) and then continue on this tale that doesn't make him the hero of the whole world regardless of the fact that he did more heroic things then every other Bio PC ever (referring to BG scope).

 

Btw another grievance:

The BG games dont fall prey as much to pampering the PC, something (ab)used by Bio later. Yes you're special - but so are all your siblings. Yes you're a hero, but overall in two cities - one of which is very small. Your ascent to power is drawn out over three long games - you can really claim to have been through a lot with a single PC. Sure its unfair to use scope to deride other Bio games, but BG simply has it. It was built to dwarf everything else and thats the kind of ambition I admire a lot.

 

Not my fault they cant/won't make anything of that size-length again.

 

Though I must admit the hero worship isnt as pronounced in DA. Or am I missing it?

Edited February 16, 2010 by RPGmasterBoo

[Volourn]

"The BG games dont fall prey as much to pampering the PC, something (ab)used by Bio later. Yes you're special - but so are all your siblings. Yes you're a hero, but overall in two cities - one of which is very small. Your ascent to power is drawn out over three long games - you can really claim to have been through a lot with a single PC. Sure its unfair to use scope to deride other Bio games, but BG simply has it. It was built to dwarf everything else and thats the kind of ambition I admire a lot. "

 

You aren't really 'hero pampered' in NWN, SOU, JE, ME, or DA. Even in ME2 is not completely over the top though you do get it.. but it is the second game, and you are largely responsible for killing a reaper/stopping the geth so it is kinda earned. Still, even then, you aren't always hero pampered. heck, the mercs on Omega treat you as just another sucker being sent to his death. L0LZ

 

 

"he did more heroic things then every other Bio PC ever (referring to BG scope)."

 

Disagree. How is the BG series PC 'more heroic' than the ME PC? DA PC? JE PC? KOTOR PC? NWN PC? And, so on. Does. not. compute.

 

I mean, just in ME you stop Cietdal space from being invaded by uber mechs and DA you end the blight, and stoppolitical shenangins from destory the country. Sounds just as heroic as TOB and stopping one of BIo's worst end bosses ever or BG2 facing off with a mage whose main goal is to torture you and conquer his people - not exactlyu world threatening.

[Wrath of Dagon]

I'll repeat my response to the Codex review from another forum:

Unfortunately, the filler combat once again gets in the way, creating long combat-filled gaps between decisions, which makes it harder to appreciate the main quest design.

That is the design, long stretches of combat followed by a few decisions, which usually only come at the end and thus don't affect the quest itself, the quest itself being the long stretch of clearing out rooms.

 

Edit: What I'm trying to say is the filler combat is not an accident, but endemic to the design methodology, an MMO trying to masquerade as a single player game by providing a few "meaningful decisions". Though perhaps not immediately obvious, Mass Effect tried to do the same thing, only not as well.

[Tigranes]

Hm. Yeah, I did skim the whole thing, sorry if I misunderstood.

 

I think they're about the same though, it just depends on how you see it. Maybe it is easier to understand the Imoen motivation because it's the kind of motivation we could all quite easily imagine (i.e. your sister gone missing). But not many people these days might be in the situation of saving something or doing something important on a wider level. Still, I think with a little projection it's just as plausible.

 

Think about it. As most/all of the origins, you really have no other option but to join the Grey Wardens "for now". All you know is that it's an elite corps, probably quite well resourced, and it's a lot better than joining any regular army. You don't know about these strings attached and have no reason to suspect. In most origin cases (I'd argue all, except dwarf commoner that I have yet to try), it's the most sensible option. Even ify ou don't like it (and you can say you don't like it throughout), most people not chaotic neutral would understand it's the best place to start off with.

 

And even if a lot of characters might have reasonably been expected to try and ditch the GW once the time was right, the whole Ostagar mess changes the situation. You're now hunted - sure it's not that well shown in DA (assassins hunting you is notoriously hard to do right for some reason), but just like there's little sense ignoring Sarevok in BG1, there's little sense ignoring Loghain in DA. Especially if you'd really, you know, like to actually live a proper life instead of having the entire country be run over by darkspawn.

 

I don't think it's any harder to identify with or any less plausible.

[Gromnir]

"Arcanum allowed you to defy your own prophecy and join the bad guys. Fallout, too, allowed you to join the Master or defeat him."

 

both o' the aforementioned games has strengths... story/writing weren't particular strong in either. you want story-driven And maximize player freedom/choice? okie dokie, but please keep in mind that play fantasy games and make fantasy games is different... unlike in games, there is no magic wands for developers/writers to achieve impossible results.

 

"The BG games dont fall prey as much to pampering the PC, something (ab)used by Bio later. Yes you're special - but so are all your siblings."

 

you is genuine making it difficult to take you serious. child o' a god... child o' DESTINY.

 

sorry, am not even gonna go down that road with you.

 

regardless, whether you likes silly bg2 motivation or not, am having a hard time seeing how you could argue that bg2 somehow gets points for the imoen jailbreak motivation when compared to da. am thinking that "personal" maybe ain't actually the word you is looking for, but in any event, da gives you a more adult and difficult starting point than does stock fantasy o' bg2. save the girl from the evil wizard? really?

 

HA! Good Fun!

Edited February 16, 2010 by Gromnir

[Tigranes]

both o' the aforementioned games has strengths... story/writing weren't particular strong in either. you want story-driven And maximize player freedom/choice? okie dokie, but please keep in mind that play fantasy games and make fantasy games is different... unlike in games, there is no magic wands for developers/writers to achieve impossible results.

 

Yeah, I'm not saying all games should have those types of choices. I'm simply saying they're actually sensible things to invest resources into and for players to ask for - asking for the ability to forego the reason to play the main course isn't.

[Gromnir]

both o' the aforementioned games has strengths... story/writing weren't particular strong in either. you want story-driven And maximize player freedom/choice? okie dokie, but please keep in mind that play fantasy games and make fantasy games is different... unlike in games, there is no magic wands for developers/writers to achieve impossible results.

 

Yeah, I'm not saying all games should have those types of choices. I'm simply saying they're actually sensible things to invest resources into and for players to ask for - asking for the ability to forego the reason to play the main course isn't.

 

agreed. as long as the initial motivation is plausible we not see a reason to quibble. honest, the jailbreak (for friendship or revenge) scenario for bg2 were more than a little wacky, but so what? da initial motivations did not include "I am moving to Kanada," but including would effective end the game. is reason why we don't get boo. to actual suggest that somehow bg2 is winning superiority points 'cause o' the initial motivation provided player seems... silly.

 

HA! Good Fun!

Edited February 16, 2010 by Gromnir

[RPGmasterBoo]

"The BG games dont fall prey as much to pampering the PC, something (ab)used by Bio later. Yes you're special - but so are all your siblings."

 

you is genuine making it difficult to take you serious. child o' a god... child o' DESTINY.

 

sorry, am not even gonna go down that road with you.

 

regardless, whether you likes silly bg2 motivation or not, am having a hard time seeing how you could argue that bg2 somehow gets points for the imoen jailbreak motivation when compared to da. am thinking that "personal" maybe ain't actually the word you is looking for, but in any event, da gives you a more adult and difficult starting point than does stock fantasy o' bg2. save the girl from the evil wizard? really?

 

HA! Good Fun!

 

Yep its the standard "destiny" deal from many other fantasy titles. The difference being its done well here. And the characters don't lick your boots and tell you how cool and powerful you are, and how much they admire you even when you actually become absurdly powerful.

 

*sigh* BGII was original and refreshing for its time. It was so well crafted that its equally enjoyable even today. Dragon Age simply isn't. Its got some very fine points drowned in Bioware's clone factory policy, that recycles a similar story and plot structure for the umpteenth time. Dragon Age feels stale even before it has a chance to show its strenghts and its Bioware's fault for making it like that.

 

When you oversimplify things like that everything looks stupid. Save the ignorant squabbling land from the rampaging orcs? Sorry what is more adult about that? That's not stock fantasy, what?

Gather your allies and fight the big bad dragon, called Archdemon? I'm sorry does it get more cliche than that?

 

What you see as an adult starting point, I see as a contrivance that was supposed to feel "dark and gritty/morally ambiguous", what with all the killing and gore and Duncan's bullsh!t but ended up being ridiculous.

to actual suggest that somehow bg2 is winning superiority points 'cause o' the initial motivation provided player seems... silly.

I didn't suggest that I just observed that DA's initial motivation is contradictory and affects suspension of disbelief. Even so, things substantially improve when that impression washes over. Which I also wrote, 10 posts back.

 

Where it gets superiority points is that the BGII plot is genuinely more interesting to explore, what with the colorful locations, dream sequences, a cool villain etc. whereas you know how how DA will play out from the very beginning.

Edited February 16, 2010 by RPGmasterBoo

[Nepenthe]

When you oversimplify things like that everything looks stupid. Save the ignorant squabbling land from the rampaging orcs? Sorry what is more adult about that? That's not stock fantasy, what?

Gather your allies and fight the big bad dragon, called Archdemon? I'm sorry does it get more cliche than that?

 

You're talking about the oversimplification you make here, right? Or is this just one of those moments when you are crushed by a mountain of irony?

[RPGmasterBoo]

I don't think that's all there is to DA's plot, but if you want to simplify it that's what it boils down to.

 

On stale: I realize that stock fantasy stuff may not be boring for most people, thus they can play DA to their hearts content.

I don't even find it boring if it has a bare minimum of originality. Like say, the Witchers graphical design/atmosphere, Geralt and the more humorous moments. Or MotB's ambitious plot. Or Gothic's incredibly well constructed world. Sure the Witcher is riddled with flaws, MotB's gameplay sucks and Gothic's story is epic blandness, but they at least excel in something.

That they could not deliver a minimum after 6 years of work is... surprising.

Dragon Age looks and feels like a spruced up Neverwinter Night's game, particularly similar to NWN2.

 

I'm guessing the sequel will be much better, if the Gray Wardens and the Blight boil over by that time.

Edited February 16, 2010 by RPGmasterBoo

[jaguars4ever]

You're both wrong.

 

When it comes down to it, DA is about orgies by the fireside. You know what I'm talking about Mr. I Wear Short Mail Shorts.

[RPGmasterBoo]

I admit if they delivered some t!ts I might have been placated.

 

Banging Morrigan felt as good as having your way with a meat grinder.

[jaguars4ever]

I admit if they delivered some t!ts I might have been placated.

 

Banging Morrigan felt as good as having your way with a meat grinder.

Indeed.

 

Morrigan's frost cones were too frigid to grind your meat.

[HoonDing]

When it comes down to it, DA is about orgies by the fireside.

[Monte Carlo]

Mod Request: Ostagar-Be-Gone.

 

Wow I'm starting a new game and it feels pretty hard work. Just like Dungeon Be Gone for BG2 I'd like a mod that gives me all the loot and XP I'd have gotten just after the ogre battle and waking up in Flemeth's hut.

[Stephen Amber]

MotB's gameplay sucks

 

Party based d&d epic play usually does. Did through Throne of Bhaal and Hotu as well. Adventuring at such high levels should be solo, as a 20+ lvl character should be self-reliant with ample resources. Or maybe a single cohort at different stages to advance the plot and assist with something especially difficult, such as a dragon. I didn't even finish Throne of Bhaal. The writing and dialogue of motb were good enough to make me keep going however.

[Volourn]

"Party based d&d epic play usually does. Did through Throne of Bhaal and Hotu as well. "

 

Nah. Gameplay of all 3 were awesome.

[Stephen Amber]

"Party based d&d epic play usually does. Did through Throne of Bhaal and Hotu as well. "

 

Nah. Gameplay of all 3 were awesome.

 

If you like half a dozen epic spells going off at once, yours and the enemies, basically a fireworks show confusing what even's going on then yea it's great.

[Volourn]

Never got confused. It's not complicated if you actually pay attention. *shrug*

[RPGmasterBoo]

MotB's gameplay sucks

 

Party based d&d epic play usually does. Did through Throne of Bhaal and Hotu as well. Adventuring at such high levels should be solo, as a 20+ lvl character should be self-reliant with ample resources. Or maybe a single cohort at different stages to advance the plot and assist with something especially difficult, such as a dragon. I didn't even finish Throne of Bhaal. The writing and dialogue of motb were good enough to make me keep going however.

 

MotB wasn't confusing, just the battles were boring as hell and the epic level spells were insta kill 90% of the time. Like most other Obsidian games, it had great writing, but wasn't much fun to play. I basically went from major plot point to major plot point on autopilot. The plot kept me going (though I've no idea what its about anymore). The only thing I remember are the colorful characters. Bioware is like the reverse, fun games with boring stories.

 

HotU was forgettable as a whole, unless you're really into DnD. I replayed it a few times to see what gameplay is like with different classes but the basic problem of the NWN series remained. Leading only one character turns the game into a no brainer. God forbid that it should be a fighter of some sort because then all you can do is click on enemies and wait.

 

ToB could be confusing and difficult but it made sense for it to be hard in the context of the storyline. Its basically a string of boss battles to toy around with your high level characters. I found it only slightly inferior to BGII itself.

 

I intensely dislike DnD 3rd edition epic role playing. Its wankery that gets really old, really fast. (not that I like DnD much anyway, its pure coincidence that my favorite cRPG is at the same time based on that ruleset).

 

*sigh* there are so many PnP systems that no one even bothers to consider making into a PC game

Edited February 16, 2010 by RPGmasterBoo