Capitalism is un-Christian.

[Killian Kalthorne]

You can't "know" anything if you're unable to demonstrate it to someone else.

 

Really? Prove it.

Edited January 3, 2010 by Killian Kalthorne

[Killian Kalthorne]

Now now, Krezy, not everyone is as enlightened and cultured as I am.

[Walsingham]

Closing your mind off to all matters of faith can be just as stifling as closing your mind to science.

 

No, because faith has never provided any observable, measurable results. Science has.

 

Faith moves men. End of.

[Humodour]

Closing your mind off to all matters of faith can be just as stifling as closing your mind to science.

 

No, because faith has never provided any observable, measurable results. Science has.

 

Faith moves men. End of.

 

That could help justify its usefulness but not its correctness.

[Oblarg]

You can't "know" anything if you're unable to demonstrate it to someone else.

 

Really? Prove it.

 

Logic.

 

Define knowledge.

[Oblarg]

Closing your mind off to all matters of faith can be just as stifling as closing your mind to science.

 

No, because faith has never provided any observable, measurable results. Science has.

 

Faith moves men. End of.

 

Purely psychological results are unimpressive, and irrelevant to the actual faith - the result you claim comes from the act of believing, not from the divine entity itself.

[Guard Dog]

Is it just me or does anyone get the impression that there have not been as many actual people participating in this discussion as user names?

[Humodour]

Is it just me or does anyone get the impression that there have not been as many actual people participating in this discussion as user names?

 

Hopefully you're referring to others (but I really can't tell who - everyone in this thread seems a separate entity), but because I'm still irked off that a certain moderator accuses me of being LoF (and used the possibility of banning him permanently to try and threaten me - again, go ahead!) I want to clarify that I am not him, and being accused of being him is pretty insulting, because I agree with him (and the way he acts) about as much as I do taks.

 

/insecure rant

[Gorgon]

Self hypnosis can be a very powerful tool. Look at Travolta and Cruise all wound up on crackpot energy, out there getting it done.

 

If faith can do that for you, and even make you happier in the process, why knock it.

[Oblarg]

Self hypnosis can be a very powerful tool. Look at Travolta and Cruise all wound up on crackpot energy, out there getting it done.

 

If faith can do that for you, and even make you happier in the process, why knock it.

 

If you have such little faith in humanity that you think the only way of inspiring people to do good things is faith, then I suppose you could view it that way.

 

Personally, I'd rather not.

[Guard Dog]

Is it just me or does anyone get the impression that there have not been as many actual people participating in this discussion as user names?

 

Hopefully you're referring to others (but I really can't tell who - everyone in this thread seems a separate entity), but because I'm still irked off that a certain moderator accuses me of being LoF (and used the possibility of banning him permanently to try and threaten me - again, go ahead!) I want to clarify that I am not him, and being accused of being him is pretty insulting, because I agree with him (and the way he acts) about as much as I do taks.

 

/insecure rant

 

Well, I wasn't exactly calling you out Krezy, but we have a saying here in Tennessee: "The guilty dog barks the loudest"

 

Kidding of course.

[Trenitay]

Self hypnosis can be a very powerful tool. Look at Travolta and Cruise all wound up on crackpot energy, out there getting it done.

 

If faith can do that for you, and even make you happier in the process, why knock it.

 

If you have such little faith in humanity that you think the only way of inspiring people to do good things is faith, then I suppose you could view it that way.

 

Personally, I'd rather not.

 

It isn't the only way. But it can be a good way. Do you only ever do anything if it only has one way to do it?

[Gorgon]

Self hypnosis can be a very powerful tool. Look at Travolta and Cruise all wound up on crackpot energy, out there getting it done.

 

If faith can do that for you, and even make you happier in the process, why knock it.

 

If you have such little faith in humanity that you think the only way of inspiring people to do good things is faith, then I suppose you could view it that way.

 

Personally, I'd rather not.

I suppose I view faith as the notion of insisting on the archetypal concepts of good and evil, and that the way we conduct our lives is subject to some manner of definitive judgment, that it all somehow matters. Despite all evidence to the contrary.

 

That kind of naivety is useful. When faith is used as an instrument of discrimination, that is obviously a negative, but I am perfectly capable of separating the desirable effects from those that are not. We are not discussing particular denominations after all.

[lord of flies]

Hopefully you're referring to others (but I really can't tell who - everyone in this thread seems a separate entity), but because I'm still irked off that a certain moderator accuses me of being LoF (and used the possibility of banning him permanently to try and threaten me - again, go ahead!) I want to clarify that I am not him, and being accused of being him is pretty insulting, because I agree with him (and the way he acts) about as much as I do taks.

 

/insecure rant

Maybe this wouldn't happen if you weren't actually my alt? Just a little... how do we say... food for thought.

[Nightshape]

Not all Muslims are like that, Nightshape. Only the really stupid ones do that sort of crap. Besides, the largest population of Muslims aren't in the Middle East or Africa, where the majority of terrorists are from. The bulk of the Islamic population resides in Indonesia and that region of the world.

 

Quite simpley, I was stating that the islamic world has fallen from grace. To cut to the chase, in the dark ages, the islamic world could be considered more civil than it is now.

 

I do not intend to tar all with the same brush, I have infact had the pleasure of knowing many moderate muslims. These people give me some hope.

 

By the 'Islamic world' you really mean the Middle Eastern world. And yes, even 100 years ago it was more civilised than now. Wahhabism and similar extremist lines of thought spread like wild-fire in that area the past century.

 

I distinguish 'Islamic world' from 'Mid East' largely because that is the way things are; Indonesia, Malaysia, Turkey, Albania are all clearly Muslim dominated and yet are by and large developed, civilised countries (Lebanon was on that list till Hezbollah got involved - it was the Switzerland of the Mid East). Heck even the North African Islamic countries (Tunisia, Algeria, Morocco) are a cut above what you find in the general Middle East area (Yemeni, Somalia, Pakistan and Iran included).

 

Reading properly, it seems that Visceris already made this point quite clearly, yet you chose to ignore him and push your prejudice instead. Nice.

 

I'm not playing, I'm too tired, maybe tomorrow.

 

BTW:

 

 

Now, call me an idiot or something...

[Nightshape]

Now now, Krezy, not everyone is as enlightened and cultured as I am.

 

I wasn't aware you ever left your arm chair... Seriously, I may respect your opinion, but cultured and enlightened aren't words I would use.

[Zoraptor]

Science includes personal experience all the time Oddblob. It's scientific, measurable, and quantifiable when you interview people about their experiences. Have you ever taken a course of psychology or read a psychological journal?

That's an invalid implication- interviews can be conducted in a "scientifically valid" way (I've personally conducted them) but that in no way implies that the results of those interviews reflect scientific "truth", only that it reflects a statistically valid body of data. If you conducted interviews at the Salem Witch Trials you would (likely) end up with most of the interviews saying that the accused were witches and it would be scientifically accurate to say that. It would not though be accurate to say that this was proof that they actually were witches. As I don't think anyone has been arguing that belief in God is not a real belief your point is not really relevant.

 

I'd also point out that putting belief in God in the same boat as diagnostic interviews for psycho-physical disorders like depression is inherently not a good point to make.

 

Lebanon was on that list till Hezbollah got involved - it was the Switzerland of the Mid East

Hezbollah (est ~1982) retroactively started the Lebanese Civil War (started 1976)?

[Guard Dog]

Hopefully you're referring to others (but I really can't tell who - everyone in this thread seems a separate entity), but because I'm still irked off that a certain moderator accuses me of being LoF (and used the possibility of banning him permanently to try and threaten me - again, go ahead!) I want to clarify that I am not him, and being accused of being him is pretty insulting, because I agree with him (and the way he acts) about as much as I do taks.

 

/insecure rant

Maybe this wouldn't happen if you weren't actually my alt? Just a little... how do we say... food for thought.

 

One of these days you are going to forget what name you logged in under and post something that will give you up!

 

Thats how Sand/Killian/Hades/et al gets caught.

[Killian Kalthorne]

Now now, Krezy, not everyone is as enlightened and cultured as I am.

 

I wasn't aware you ever left your arm chair... Seriously, I may respect your opinion, but cultured and enlightened aren't words I would use.

 

It was a joke, hence the emoticon.

[Killian Kalthorne]

Logic.

 

Define knowledge.

 

Logic is an abstract, therefore not proof. What is logical to one human may be illogical if not insane to another. Nice try, you lose.

[lord of flies]

One of these days you are going to forget what name you logged in under and post something that will give you up!

 

Thats how Sand/Killian/Hades/et al gets caught.

That's actually happened a couple of times, the trick is to just roll with it. In my gigantic threads, one guy posting something vaguely similar to my normal posts isn't really notable.

 

Basically, what I'm saying is that my posts are indistinguishable garbage. I've yet to post any Bolsheviki bull**** on my alt, however, so don't bother trying to find it.

[Humodour]

Not all Muslims are like that, Nightshape. Only the really stupid ones do that sort of crap. Besides, the largest population of Muslims aren't in the Middle East or Africa, where the majority of terrorists are from. The bulk of the Islamic population resides in Indonesia and that region of the world.

 

Quite simpley, I was stating that the islamic world has fallen from grace. To cut to the chase, in the dark ages, the islamic world could be considered more civil than it is now.

 

I do not intend to tar all with the same brush, I have infact had the pleasure of knowing many moderate muslims. These people give me some hope.

 

By the 'Islamic world' you really mean the Middle Eastern world. And yes, even 100 years ago it was more civilised than now. Wahhabism and similar extremist lines of thought spread like wild-fire in that area the past century.

 

I distinguish 'Islamic world' from 'Mid East' largely because that is the way things are; Indonesia, Malaysia, Turkey, Albania are all clearly Muslim dominated and yet are by and large developed, civilised countries (Lebanon was on that list till Hezbollah got involved - it was the Switzerland of the Mid East). Heck even the North African Islamic countries (Tunisia, Algeria, Morocco) are a cut above what you find in the general Middle East area (Yemeni, Somalia, Pakistan and Iran included).

 

Reading properly, it seems that Visceris already made this point quite clearly, yet you chose to ignore him and push your prejudice instead. Nice.

 

I'm not playing, I'm too tired, maybe tomorrow.

 

I look forward to it.

 

BTW:

 

 

Now, call me an idiot or something...

 

OMG I don't even.

[Blank]

Science includes personal experience all the time Oddblob. It's scientific, measurable, and quantifiable when you interview people about their experiences. Have you ever taken a course of psychology or read a psychological journal?

That's an invalid implication- interviews can be conducted in a "scientifically valid" way (I've personally conducted them) but that in no way implies that the results of those interviews reflect scientific "truth", only that it reflects a statistically valid body of data. If you conducted interviews at the Salem Witch Trials you would (likely) end up with most of the interviews saying that the accused were witches and it would be scientifically accurate to say that. It would not though be accurate to say that this was proof that they actually were witches. As I don't think anyone has been arguing that belief in God is not a real belief your point is not really relevant.

 

I'd also point out that putting belief in God in the same boat as diagnostic interviews for psycho-physical disorders like depression is inherently not a good point to make.

 

I mostly agree with you. It's an important clarification to make between saying that my testimony that God exists is different than saying that God measurably exists and check out these calculations.

 

But I disagree that the comparison to diagnostic interviews for psycho-physical disorders is poor as an analogy. As we have trust that there is actually such a disorder as depression (the physical mechanics are not completely understood or measured), and that the person explaining their symptoms agrees with the diagnostic tools for the disorder, why do we have such a difficult time saying that the God someone experiences can exist just as well?

 

And the witness system I speak of is not so flawed as the Salem witch trials. I refer more to the type of witness your best friend has with you. If he says he really saw God and he wants you to take a think over it all once more, and he starts making drastic changes for the better in his life that would never have taken place before, how big of a jerk would you be to disregard the validity of his sense of reality?

 

Again, as I said in my post, I don't think we can scientifically prove God or my faith, but science can simply mean "The observation, identification, description, experimental investigation, and theoretical explanation of phenomena," and as humans we can observe a relative measure of whether a person who professes faith has correlations with a changed life based on those beliefs.

 

My life being different as a result of my faith is a phenomena. And those beliefs include the idea that the beliefs are reality. Yet again, we cannot scientifically determine if the beliefs are reality.

 

But consider the following, inspired by Flatland: if my world is a plane, and I am a square on it, I cannot understand that my reality is flat, for I would not understand that there is anything outside of height and width; I can only see a line. Faith claims there is something beyond all we know. For me as a square, it would be a leap of faith to believe that there is such thing as "depth", and that there is actual space outside of the line I can see and measure with points. If a human stuck their finger into my world, I would see it start with a point, and the point would turn into a small line, then gradually become a larger line until the finger is fully inserted and stops. Then I would see a constant line of a certain height. I might say as a square that the point grew, but nothing actually grew at all. A fully grown finger came into my plane. As a human I understand my views as a square were limited. I can measure the height, width, and depth. But it will be another leap of faith to say there is something beyond it. As a square, I would be ridiculed for explaining the finger phenomena by saying there is something outside of what we know, and that we cannot measure it with something we know. Likewise, as a human, I explain the transformation of my life from morbidly despondent to enthusiastically vivacious as a result of Christ working in me. Another person might say, "Ridiculous! I cannot measure 'God's finger' in your life, Blank." Very true, you cannot. Neither can I. I just believe it and have had my belief verified to me again and again. Take my testimony as false if you wish, but if you trust me, I hope you trust God yourself and pleasantly find Him verified to you again and again as you do so.

[Hurlshort]

Very interesting analogy Blank, thanks.

[Blank]

You have added great points to the discussion yourself, Hurls. I likewise thank you.

 

Hey, let's have a pat on the back all around gentlemen. We've managed to discuss religion for 19 threads and not flame each other out.