Dragon Age discussion

[Aristes]

I gave Morrigan some sort of

mirror

which I'd recalled her describing to me some time earlier. That gave me 20 points. She's over 90 in Aristes love right now. Alistair is at 100, Leliana is over 90, and Wynne is over 85. I could just dump the odds and ends on Wynne and she'd be over 90 also. It's great for getting those lurve bonuses, which are quite nice. Of course, Morrigan is still a double barreled bitch to the other members. Except the dog. She has a soft spot in her heart for the dog.

 

No one comes set up as a tank except Alistair in this game. Oghren and Sten are DPS warriors. The dog is pretty buff, but he only has something like 8 total abilities. I suppose, you could theoretically try something fancy with Morrigan's bear shape or something. I dunno. I could probably forget casting and just go all arcane warrior armor to the max with my main. She's already carrying an arcane warrior sword and a big assed shield. I'd rather keep Alistair as a tank and have the PC lay down the smack on bad guys really. Anyhow, it seems clear that Bio really really wanted the player to keep Alistair around. Him and

Jowan

. lol

 

Is it my imagination, or is there no elf JNPC?

[Gromnir]

I gave Morrigan some sort of

mirror

which I'd recalled her describing to me some time earlier. That gave me 20 points. She's over 90 in Aristes love right now. Alistair is at 100, Leliana is over 90, and Wynne is over 85. I could just dump the odds and ends on Wynne and she'd be over 90 also. It's great for getting those lurve bonuses, which are quite nice. Of course, Morrigan is still a double barreled bitch to the other members. Except the dog. She has a soft spot in her heart for the dog.

 

No one comes set up as a tank except Alistair in this game. Oghren and Sten are DPS warriors. The dog is pretty buff, but he only has something like 8 total abilities. I suppose, you could theoretically try something fancy with Morrigan's bear shape or something. I dunno. I could probably forget casting and just go all arcane warrior armor to the max with my main. She's already carrying an arcane warrior sword and a big assed shield. I'd rather keep Alistair as a tank and have the PC lay down the smack on bad guys really. Anyhow, it seems clear that Bio really really wanted the player to keep Alistair around. Him and

Jowan

. lol

 

Is it my imagination, or is there no elf JNPC?

 

 

it is your imagination. zevran is an elf... barely. as an aside, if you is trying to romance both morrigan and the french girl you might want to stockpile some gifts.

 

HA! Good Fun!

Edited December 12, 2009 by Gromnir

[Monte Carlo]

^ Zevran is an elf, although DA elves are just slim humans with slightly pointy ears. So you could be forgiven for not noticing.

[HoonDing]

'Lore' question regarding Emissaries:

 

 

How can Genlock Emissaries exist in the game? Genlocks are corrupted Dwarves & Dwarves are supposedly immune to magic.

 

Or for that matter, how can any Darkspawn do magic? According to the codex they're all soulless, empty husks - how would they be able to access the Fade then?

 

[Gromnir]

'Lore' question regarding Emissaries:

 

 

How can Genlock Emissaries exist in the game? Genlocks are corrupted Dwarves & Dwarves are supposedly immune to magic.

 

Or for that matter, how can any Darkspawn do magic? According to the codex they're all soulless, empty husks - how would they be able to access the Fade then?

 

 

its magic, and it is bio's universe. the rules is infinite malleable. keep in mind that the taint that results in darkspawn is powerful enough to turn old gods into archdemons. no doubt the biowarians got some explanation, though it is doubtful it will satisfy everybody. as long as they don't resort to a shadow-fade explanation, Gromnir will at least consider the possibility of the source of taint being able to establish a link to the fade.

 

also, recall that the dwarf in the orzamar market... the one who went a little wacky from direct lyrium exposure? you not think they added him just for comic relief, did you? direct infusion o' lyrium into dwarf blood is no doubt gonna be relevant at some point. is yet another reason we hope for kal sharok in sequel/expansion.

 

 

 

 

HA! Good Fun!

Edited December 12, 2009 by Gromnir

[Volourn]

"Of course, Morrigan is still a double barreled bitch to the other members."

 

Sure, but most of the other party members aren't exactly nice to her. *cough* Alistiar and Wynne *cough*

 

 

"'Lore' question regarding Emissaries:"

 

Youa re question 'logic' of a fantasy game where a blight/curse can completely change the nature of beings that have the existence of a creature like the broodmother. Or magic? I think grom is right here. I'm sure BIO has soem sort of excuse.. err.. exaplnation. Some people will buy it, others won't. Either way, it doesn't matter.

 

 

 

" Zevran is an elf, although DA elves are just slim humans with slightly pointy ears."

 

Same with Tokien elves. And, your typical D&D elves. At least appearance wise. *shrug* Thankfully, Zevran isn't your typical DA Dalish elf.

[HoonDing]

"'Lore' question regarding Emissaries:"

 

Youa re question 'logic' of a fantasy game where a blight/curse can completely change the nature of beings that have the existence of a creature like the broodmother. Or magic? I think grom is right here. I'm sure BIO has soem sort of excuse.. err.. exaplnation. Some people will buy it, others won't. Either way, it doesn't matter.

With all the effort Bio seems to have put in creating a world with such detailed lore (as witnessed in the codex) an answer like "it's magic" is a bit of a cop-out, no?

 

" Zevran is an elf, although DA elves are just slim humans with slightly pointy ears."

 

Same with Tokien elves. And, your typical D&D elves. At least appearance wise. *shrug* Thankfully, Zevran isn't your typical DA Dalish elf.

Tolkien's Elves are very different from humans appearance wise. Golden/silver hair, starlight in their eyes, all beautiful beyond description, etc.

[Monte Carlo]

^ Another epic fail for DA elves is their appearance. NWN2 OTOH is an epic win - you can make some seriously Area 51 looking elves, which in my mind's eye is how they should look: alien, not-human, different.

[Enoch]

No one comes set up as a tank except Alistair in this game. Oghren and Sten are DPS warriors. The dog is pretty buff, but he only has something like 8 total abilities. I suppose, you could theoretically try something fancy with Morrigan's bear shape or something. I dunno. I could probably forget casting and just go all arcane warrior armor to the max with my main. She's already carrying an arcane warrior sword and a big assed shield. I'd rather keep Alistair as a tank and have the PC lay down the smack on bad guys really. Anyhow, it seems clear that Bio really really wanted the player to keep Alistair around. Him and

Jowan

. lol

Shale can do it. But recall that Shale was supposed to have been cut from the game before it was delayed to this fall, and even now comes as 'premium content' that people who didn't buy the game new have to shell out $15 for. Without the golem, Bio gave us only one natural melee tank NPC and only one natural crowd-control-focused mage NPC-- the two roles that, in the rule system they devised, are most crucial to success. The PC, of course, can take one of these roles, but not both.

 

So, yeah, they really wanted this game to be the Morrigan and Alistair show. Too bad that neither character is particularly likable.

Edited December 12, 2009 by Enoch

[Volourn]

" Too bad that neither character is particularly likable. "

 

That's a weird thing to say since those two eaisly have the most fans, and are the ones who are discussed the most. Espicially in the case of Morrigan. What they are are strong characters that either get major love or major hate. A sure sign of absolutely successful characters. Don't mistake your opinion as that as others.

 

 

"With all the effort Bio seems to have put in creating a world with such detailed lore (as witnessed in the codex) an answer like "it's magic" is a bit of a cop-out, no?"

 

Maybe, but many things are just it's 'magic'... ie. Exactly how does the taint turn people into darkspawn? Simple, magic. How do the darkspawn sense where a spirit of an old god lies dormant? Magic. Why does when an archdemon die does it seek out the nearest tainted body and then transforms said body into a form of a dragon? Magic. How does the fade work? Magic. How do the ashes work? Magic. How does lyrium power spells? Magic. The list goes on, and on.

 

 

"Without the golem, Bio gave us only one natural melee tank NPC and only one natural crowd-control-focused mage NPC-- the two roles that, in the rule system they devised, are most crucial to success."

 

*shrug* Wynn cna eaisly be used for crowd control since you can easily ger her early since the ideal way through the game is to hit the tower 1st or 2nd. And, i really hate the new definition of tank that people ar robbing for MMORPGs. To me and to TRUE sprg fans, Ogrhen, and Sten cna be considered tanks. Even Dog

can.

 

 

"Tolkien's Elves are very different from humans appearance wise. Golden/silver hair, starlight in their eyes, all beautiful beyond description, etc."

 

They look like humans to me. Consideirng you cna simply put pointy ears on humans and they be lookin' like elves. That's what elves are. 'Beautiful beyond description' is beyond illogical and means nothing. It's horrible writing. LOTR movies proves this. The dwarves look different than humans, even the hobbits can be be seperated; but the elves were basically pointed eared humans.

[Aristes]

I disagree with you, Vol. Elves, Dwarves, and Hobbits are all just humans of different shapes and sizes. For them to be truly alien would have required their motives to be inscrutable and quite difficult for the author to convey. There's no real alieness with these "demi" humans. That's why folks like Bioware, Obsidian, and other use them, according to Sawyer, as proxies for various human societies. The caste system isn't alien. The shire isn't alien. Hell, the shire isn't even foreign to Tolkien. The irony is that the most alien of all of the races in Tolkien are the orcs. Same goes for the darkspawn. It's difficult to find entire human societies whose sole goal is to kill other folks without real regard to capturing land or riches. Essentially, orcs and darkspawn as an entire race kill for the fun of killing. It doesn't even appear to be sport. At least that's my take.

 

As far as Zhevran goes, I truly forgot he was an elf. Weird. I guess I just never adventure with him.

[Gorth]

The irony is that the most alien of all of the races in Tolkien are the orcs.

Tolkiens orcs are just another kind of elves. Took the loving hand of Melkor to "adjust" them, but hey, sometimes you have to make do with the tools available

 

As far as Zhevran goes, I truly forgot he was an elf. Weird. I guess I just never adventure with him.

I like the guy, Together with Sten, he is in my top 3 of favourite DA characters. Not necessarily judged by usefulness.

 

After I finished my first game (human male noble warrior templar/champion), I am 2/3rd the way through as a human female mage healer/blood mage. "She" has a more twisted world view than my first do gooder. Crowning achievements so far was turning Wynne into a blood mage and wrecking the relations between the young elf guy that was in love. Kudos to Bioware for that option

 

I think I finally found out why people manage to play on "hard" (I am still playing on "normal"). The trick seems to be, not to rush straight towards the end of each of the four main quests, but to gather a few levels under your belt first travelling around and doing stuff. Void of the Anvil was soo much easier with a level 15 party than it was when doing the same with levels 8-9 or so. Not to mention crowd control spells which I didn't bring the first time. I managed to lose my party once there because I grew careless.

[Enoch]

*shrug* Wynn cna eaisly be used for crowd control since you can easily ger her early since the ideal way through the game is to hit the tower 1st or 2nd. And, i really hate the new definition of tank that people ar robbing for MMORPGs. To me and to TRUE sprg fans, Ogrhen, and Sten cna be considered tanks. Even Dog

can.

Yeah, but a player without metaknowledge isn't necessarily going to know to go get Wynne early. (If you stumble onto her later, you lose your shot at And people are using MMO terms because that's what Bio's ruleset most resembles. I agree that all the warriors would fit into the "Meatshield" category of the traditional D&D foursome (along with Healbot, Nuker, and Skill-monkey). But the 'threat management' system that Bio wrote screams for MMO-style specialization between damage-dealers and damage-sponges.

[Tigranes]

Denerim is the first place to go, IMO. Without straying to its back alleys you pick up all those different faction quests that require you to run around talk to people and fetch things. Then as you go around doing the main quests you get 'em done naturally, and get a steady flow of sovereigns to help you fit out.

[Aristes]

We can change the terms, but the concepts are still going to be the same. A generic DnD fighter can still function as a meatshield even though it's optimal to stick a shield and a one handed weapon on him. A generic dragon age warrior without shield talents and investment in some dex and sta will spend more time on his back than a hooker on a saturday night. That's assuming harder difficulties. I suspect that easier settings would make a two hander a viable person who primarily serves to take more damage than other members of the party. For simplicity, I think I'll coin the term 'tank' for that.

[Gromnir]

The irony is that the most alien of all of the races in Tolkien are the orcs.

Tolkiens orcs are just another kind of elves. Took the loving hand of Melkor to "adjust" them, but hey, sometimes you have to make do with the tools available

 

 

 

a couple years ago, when the first genuine screenshots o' da were getting released, there were criticisms that da looked just like lotr. Gromnir didn't see it. we pointed out that pretty much any fantasy game with elves and dwarves can be compared to tolkien... if peoples try hard enough to make connections. additionally, Gromnir were avoiding spoilers. nevertheless, we then gets info that the darkspawn is perverted elves 'n such and Gromnir cried foul... we pointed out that bio were unnecessary sucking off of tolkien teat if they gotta make their orcs altered elves 'n such.

 

...

 

take it for what it is worth... believe what you will, but gaider actual responded to Gromnir's criticism. gaider claimed ignorance. apparently he, nor anybody else who wrote the da story, actually knew the tolkien lore 'regarding the genesis o' orcs. Gromnir criticism that orks=darkspawn and that tolkien orcs were twisted and perverted elves were news to the biowarians... first they had heard of such a thing. really.

 

*shrug*

 

is hard to believe that nobody at bio knew, but we suspect that many genuine didn't. tolkien is a tedious read for the most part, and we wouldn't force his "prose" on anybody... save as some kinda cruel punishment that probably violates the Geneva Convention and the Eighth Amendment. hobbit, farmer giles, and the short stories... those is readable, but the other stuff is soul-numbing save for the serious geeks and nerdlings. it is Possible that the biowarians were ignorant, but it is amusing to us regardless. in trying to distance selves from tolkien, they unwitting did exact as tolkien? tickles our sense o' whimsy.

 

and aristes is correct 'bout the da warriors. a well-built 2h warrior in da is a serious glass canon... though again, it does fit into easily into the damage-dealer half o' the dealer v. sponge split identified by enoch... it just ain't belonging where one would initially expect.

 

HA! Good Fun!

 

ps for what it is worth, Gromnir believed gaider when he claimed ignorance... otherwise he woulda' been able to construct a far better excuse for his copying o' tolkien. am thinking he were honest surprised to find out that they had replicated tolkien's efforts.

Edited December 13, 2009 by Gromnir

[Enoch]

Yeah, but a player without metaknowledge isn't necessarily going to know to go get Wynne early. (If you stumble onto her later, you lose your shot at building her into a more well-rounded mage.) And people are using MMO terms because that's what Bio's ruleset most resembles. I agree that all the warriors would fit into the "Meatshield" category of the traditional D&D foursome (along with Healbot, Nuker, and Skill-monkey). But the 'threat management' system that Bio wrote screams for MMO-style specialization between damage-dealers and damage-sponges.

Had a weird editing error in that last post. Bolded portion fixed.

[Aristes]

My point about orcs is that they don't easily fit into human roles like the elves, dwarves, and hobbits do. Readers and players can easily understand the 'demi' humans. For all intents and purposes, they really are proxy humans. Hell, I always thought that's why they are 'demi-humans.' Orcs and Darkspawn do not fit into any readily defined human role. Sure, some individuals are hellbent on causing suffering, but whole societies are not centered on it. There must be a real world payoff somewhere along the line. The Darkspawn and orcs, as far as I can tell, are motivated by pure hatred and that hatred is their sustaining motive for centuries and centuries. We've had some pretty ugly and hateful societies and movements throughout history, but all of them have had some motive beyond simple death and destruction. The orcs and darkspawn fulfil the bogeyman role. The Mongols (or Crusaders or whoever) were bogey men also, but seen from their perspective, the Mongols had very human motives. Orcs don't have that. Hell, if anything, they're the opposite. Individual orcs within the writing might have personal motives for gain, but orcs as a whole are only out for destruction.

 

I don't know that I really care to duke it out over the orcs not being human proxies so much as I firmly believe that all of the other demihuman races are clearly humans with defining characteristics. Take the point off those ears or give dwarves a couple of extra feet and you've got folks who wouldn't stand out as human civilizations. Only their physical appearances and abilities set them apart. Psychologically, they're all humans.

[Gromnir]

Yeah, but a player without metaknowledge isn't necessarily going to know to go get Wynne early. (If you stumble onto her later, you lose your shot at building her into a more well-rounded mage.) And people are using MMO terms because that's what Bio's ruleset most resembles. I agree that all the warriors would fit into the "Meatshield" category of the traditional D&D foursome (along with Healbot, Nuker, and Skill-monkey). But the 'threat management' system that Bio wrote screams for MMO-style specialization between damage-dealers and damage-sponges.

Had a weird editing error in that last post. Bolded portion fixed.

 

 

if Gromnir had not known that wynne were available at tower previous to playing game, we never woulda' gone there first... and the genuine reason we went to tower is 'cause we thought she were a healer (traditional d&d foursome). we didn't learn til much later that most o' wynne's healing talents were less than useful. our ignorance rand deep, and so we chose additional heal-focused spells as she leveled... figuring that the Next heal spell had to be a good one, right?

 

*groan*

 

thank goodness there were three o' those mage talent books for sale in game... were able to partial ameliorate our early mistakes.

 

 

HA! Good Fun!

 

ps as has been pointed out by Gromnir and others many times afore, a silicon-based puddle of goo from quilax-5 is probable gonna be human. if the audience is expected to understand the motivations o' the puddle, then it has gotta be human. orcs and sauron and other bogeymen monsters not need motivations and character. they exist to be scary. they exist so that heroes may beat them and show us what qualities we, as a society, consider important. why does monsters hide in closets and under the bed? reasons not matter if their only value is to be scary.

 

grendel is the savage darkness lurking beyond the hall doors.

 

in the old english, orc=evil spirit... bogeyman.

 

dwarves and elves and puddles o' goo from quilax-5 is all gonna be human, regardless of shapes and histories. if author wants human audiences to Understand, then they got no choice but to make their creations... human.

 

pps a grendel kinda monster is, in our estimation, a dead end for a game developer. as it not have motivations and character, your best approach is to describe as little as possible. your nightmare is different than Gromnir's, no? is no way to describe each person's personal fear, so is best to leave vague. describe grendel. describe lotr sauron. you cannot, because those antagonists were purposeful never described. can't really do that in a visual game... especially one that lasts +50 hours.

Edited December 13, 2009 by Gromnir

[Aristes]

I dunno. I think if the designers managed to shroud someone in mystery, you could create a race that isn't a human proxy. The problem is that the players wouldn't be able to sympathize with them in any meaningful way. They would be too removed. Also, they would need to have some motivation, and that would be quite difficult for the design team to convey unless some of the team is non-human. I mean, take for instance a non social society. Kind of like a bunch of human cats running around. Males only hook up with females to mate. Females only raise the young to the point where they are viable and they part ways. Give them some inscrutable motives and then call them non human, which would be somewhat true since human society is universally based on social structures, even if some of them are weird from the outside. Nevertheless, these humans socialized like cats will still need to take care of physical needs. Cats are kind of alien to humans in many ways, but they still need to eat. They still feel pain. And I'm assuming this non-human species will be intelligent. Maybe make them intelligent but not self-aware or something crazy? Good luck conveying that without it falling apart the second you try to explain anything meaningful about their society or lack thereof.

 

There are things that are alien to humans that someone could use. Elves are basically humans with pointy ears, but the most interesting thing Tolkien did with them is make them sleepless. The dream awake idea is truly exotic. It's difficult for humans to understand. Even so, elves must have downtimes, right? Trying to make them entirely sleepless would be difficult to explain and genuinely outside our understanding.

 

Likewise, the dwarves living entirely underground could be exotic, but it really always ends up being a veneer over a human society that basically lives in caverns and deals with the issue in entirely understandable and predictable ways.

 

I honestly don't know that taking the time to really differentiate 'races' would be worth the hassle and most designers don't really want to do so. Better to use them, in Sawyer's words, are weak proxies for commentary on real life issues. And weak in every sense of the word, as the issues facing the elves are not nearly so disgustingly terrible as the things facing many real life peoples world wide.

 

So, I think I've written a long navel gazing post. At least I'm self aware enough to realize it. heh heh

 

edit: Sadly, through all the twists and turns, Gromnir editing in a comment while I was writing this. We essentially agree about keeping the mystery. In my mind, as I said, it's not worth it to the design team to try to take it any further.

Edited December 13, 2009 by Aristes

[Volourn]

Elves, Dwarves, and Hobbits are all just humans of different shapes and sizes. For them to be truly alien would have required their motives to be inscrutable and quite difficult for the author to convey. There's no real alieness with these "demi" humans."

 

True, good point.

 

 

"And weak in every sense of the word, as the issues facing the elves are not nearly so disgustingly terrible as the things facing many real life peoples world wide."

 

Like what, for example? DA elevs seem to suffer everything that real life people have. Rape, mass murder, slavery, losing your identity, being booted out of your homes, being treated as 2nd/3rd/4th class citizens, poverty, torture, used as lab rats, etc., etc.

 

 

"Gromnir criticism that orks=darkspawn"

 

Riiighhhtt.... Must explain the ogres, shriekers, archdemon, and broodmothers. Which, btw, are all darkspawn.

 

 

"Yeah, but a player without metaknowledge isn't necessarily going to know to go get Wynne early."

 

Tower is likely to be hit 1st or 2nd of the four main areas. And, if someone doesn't hit it to later, that's their problem and I feel zero sympathy for them. That's what happen in a semi open game. *shrug* You win some, you lose some.

[Aristes]

I hit the tower third, but my main is a mage. The irony is that Wynne is much more useful to me as a healer. Crushing prison has not played a vital role in my battles. Healing and outlasting the bad guys has been the biggest advantage to every big battle I've done so far. In fact, that nasty spider, so I get what you're saying, Enoch, but I brought my own mage to this party. Frankly, the AoE has been more important than control by far for me. On the other hand, the control I use in most big battles is force field, which really is the bomb. That's only the second tier, though, and you can get that for Wynne pretty easy if it's part of your plan. Frankly, it's not the type of mage I'm going to miss. it's the mage period. My first run has been decidedly mage centered and I'm leery of coming up with a new gameplan. Of course, I'm also looking forward to the challenge of coming up with a new gameplan.

 

As far as the weak proxy argument, Vol, I see what you're saying. It's perfectly valid. I guess I look at the codex and you can find those real world things in it, but it seems a bit sterile. Nevertheless, it is in there. Overall, I think using demi-humans as a proxy is weak in and of itself, but I have to admit that what I'm looking for is a more visceral sort of depiction of real world suffering within the game, and that's a bit much to ask of any mainstream developer. After all, they want to sell a product. It's insane to demand of the design team something that might not be economicall viable.

 

On the other hand, they do a much better job of depicting urban suffering among the dwarves. Sure, it's still got that video game plastic sort of feel to it, but it's much more in your face than it is with the elves. That's probably what irks me so much. The elves complain more, but the dwarves have got some real urban ugly going down.

[Volourn]

Play the City Elf origin. Espicially as a female. That's rather nasty. Of course, it will never be as 'realistic' as real life but that's simply impossible with video game avatars.

[CoM_Solaufein]

Play the City Elf origin. Espicially as a female. That's rather nasty. Of course, it will never be as 'realistic' as real life but that's simply impossible with video game avatars.

My favorite origin story. A touch of realism plus it shows you why the two races have a distrust, hatred toward one another.

[SeanM]

I agree that the Brecillian camp section was a bit static.

 

The Elves have an existing problem and ask you to solve it. There is a theme of them being bitterly fixated on historic injustices and revenge. And whether that identity and attitude is healthy. But the Elves end up being supporting characters to the Werewolves. There is not as much tension, plot and interaction with them.

 

I would prefer it if it was hard to track down their camp. And you meet people in a nearby village who would tell you negative stories about them. There would be more buildup to meeting the Elves. And tension within their community. Or maybe you would track down several tribes.