Dragon Age: Tactics

[HoonDing]

^Is there any information on how Stealth checks work in the game? Is Cunning really essential?

 

I think my Dalish Elf is going to go with bombs, combined with Tier 4 stealth and the three maxed out Archery talents. And maybe a few DW feats for some boss fights if I can get away with it.

[jaguars4ever]

^Is there any information on how Stealth checks work in the game? Is Cunning really essential?

 

I think my Dalish Elf is going to go with bombs, combined with Tier 4 stealth and the three maxed out Archery talents. And maybe a few DW feats for some boss fights if I can get away with it.

1. Where is the recipe for freeze bombs (and what ingredients do they use)?

2. Can you shatter with archery?

 

If so, my next char (for my 3rd playthrough) is going to be a Dalish Elf (I've been dying to play this origin, but I'm not done with my Arcane Warrior game) archer abusing stealth-freeze-bombing.

Edited December 10, 2009 by jaguars4ever

[HoonDing]

^Is there any information on how Stealth checks work in the game? Is Cunning really essential?

 

I think my Dalish Elf is going to go with bombs, combined with Tier 4 stealth and the three maxed out Archery talents. And maybe a few DW feats for some boss fights if I can get away with it.

1. Where is the recipe for freeze bombs (and what ingredients do they use)?

2. Can you shatter with archery?

 

If so, my next char (for my 3rd playthrough) is going to be a Dalish Elf (I've been dying to play this origin, but I'm not done with my Arcane Warrior game) archer abusing stealth-freeze-bombing.

1. Lothering tavern

2. Critical shot

 

It might even be fun to go through the entire game with Zevran and only Zevran as party member (stealth/DW specialist) for some melee oomph.

Edited December 10, 2009 by virumor

[Gromnir]

for the battles Gromnir would wanna be stealthed, stealth don't help... which is any serious boss battle. for any other battle, being stealthed simply takes us out of combat. if Gromnir gets three standard attacks during the time monte needs to set up his 100 point backstab (a very conservative estimate btw), Gromnir has already dealt over 100 points o' damage anyways. stealth gets kewl points more than it is an effective battlefield tactic. as a light armed foe, we is pretty low on the target priority list. with shale doing taunt and stoneheart mode, Gromnir is usually able to gets our flanking position when desired... and with a mage or two and shale, most enemies is stunned/disabled for much of combat. put the bosses in a force field, shred the mobs, and then concentrate on the boss unhampered.

 

*shrug*

 

to weave through the mobs and achieve tactical superiority we need tier 3 stealth. tier 4 not genuine help with the stuff we really would want it for anyways.

 

HA! Good Fun!

[Monte Carlo]

^ Yes, it totally depends on your playing style. I'm not advocating making a character like mine unless you like wandering around levels unseen, more or less solo, whilst looting and figuring out how you are going to lay traps / ambushes. You can play DA that way if you like, it's kudos to an otherwise system that has lots of strange flaws.

[Spider]

Personally I feel Cunning does add a lot to the rogue. As has been mentioned, there is an assassin talent that makes cunning better, and there is the blood power as well.

 

Since the fourth tier assasin talent is one of the best rogue talents (right after momentum), you'd want to go down that route anyway, so the question is how much of a benefit strength is.

 

If we just go with damage, each point of cunning is then worth 1.17 points of damage and strength is worth 1 (yes, you backstab all the time, or you're doing it wrong). Assuming you'd want at least 21 strength no matter what, if you go the cunning route, you only add 10 more points in strength. So damage-wise, the waste going the lethality route is 10 points of damage.

 

This loss is offset at a cunning of 58. But since you're probably going to have 22 cunning anyways, you'd really need it up to eighty before it evens out completely.

 

But then there's armor penetration. That's 0,14 per cunning point. I'm not sure how armor works, but it reduces damage based on it's value, right? So AP is as good as damage against armored foes, I think. That'd make cunning worth 1.31 points of damage. That means the damage would be offset at 32 cunning (which translates to 54 then). My rouge, at level 23, had a cunning of 60, meaning the cunning build leads to higher damage output.

 

This is without the blood power factored in, which is fair since it's not used that frequently (but has made the difference in some fights).

 

So cunning seems to lead to higher damage per hit that connects in the end game. The question is, how many hits connect? Strength boosts attack rating, cunning does not. I have no idea how this is calculated though, so I have no idea. My character ended with a to hit ratio at 89%, but before the end game started it was at 81%, which is a more accurate number. Don't know what would have happened if I had more strength (also note that I ended on 45 dex, 9 coming from items, which helps more with to hit than strength).

 

My conclusion? Cunning will result in higher damage, but probably with fewer hits connecting. But cunning will also help with stealth and other rogue abilities. I like being very good at all rogueish stuff, so I prefer the cunning build.

 

This is if you're going for the two longswords. If you're going for a dagger build, cunning will increase your damage even more (because there is less waste), and since dex has more of an effect, you can boost that more to get a better chance to hit.

[Enoch]

@vir, if this Bioboards thread is to be believed, Cunning has no effect on stealth-- it's all skill ranks and no attributes. Although the author there was unable to determine how laying traps while cloaked works, so it might play in to that calculation.

Edited December 10, 2009 by Enoch

[HoonDing]

^Thanks.

 

I don't really care about the number crunching at any rate, Morrowind had pretty much the same thing going on. Lots of hidden mathematical formulae... didn't prevent people from completely breaking the game anyway.

[Spider]

Here is someone who really dissected the rogue damage output (yeah same guy that was linked to by Enoch above, but different thread).

 

http://social.bioware.com/forum/1/topic/66/index/223777

 

Dagger/Dagger cunning-based is the clear and definite winner as far as DPS is concerned. It's quite informative in regards to how the system works.

[jaguars4ever]

^Thanks.

 

I don't really care about the number crunching at any rate, Morrowind had pretty much the same thing going on. Lots of hidden mathematical formulae... didn't prevent people from completely breaking the game anyway.

Don't be talking **** about my (pre-nerfed) Robe of St. Roris.

[Enoch]

Here is someone who really dissected the rogue damage output (yeah same guy that was linked to by Enoch above, but different thread).

 

http://social.bioware.com/forum/1/topic/66/index/223777

 

Dagger/Dagger cunning-based is the clear and definite winner as far as DPS is concerned. It's quite informative in regards to how the system works.

Yeah, I used some of the info in that post, but I wasn't about to duplicate some of those calculations. (The attack timing stuff in particular lost me.) And I didn't want to include specific equipment or the constant use of the DLC power (which I haven't bought).

[Oner]

Some people take this stuff too seriously.

[kirottu]

That kind of number chrushing reminds me of WoW theorycrafters.

[HoonDing]

^It makes the never-ending barrage of "Go back to WoW!!" exclaims on the Bio social site even more ironic.

 

Don't be talking **** about my (pre-nerfed) Robe of St. Roris.

At least they didn't nerf Aryon's Helper.

[Monte Carlo]

^ This is why I use my Zen method.

 

The MMO crowd will destroy, like math-obsessed locusts, any game they get involved in. Competition does that - my Company of Heroes experience teaches me this too.

[Oner]

Where's the competition in DA?

[SeanM]

I also finished a second playthrough but for now am going back to NWN 2. At least in that game 90% of battles don't boil down to "cast sleep, cast cone of cold, shatter enemies, rinse & repeat".

 

The only challenge the game provides is either ambushes where the party is positioned in the worst way possible and/or being outnumbered 5 to 1 at least, but even those can be beaten fairly easily with said spells... not to mention health/lyrium potions are easy to come by in large doses.

 

In which case, if you want a proper challenge, play as a Rogue (archer) with a party of Wynne (no respeccing, just follow the heal / buff route - imagine she's a D&D cleric), Alistair and one of the other rogues (I'd suggest Zevran configured for the all out Tier 4 Stealth, DW god).

 

It will play as a very different, more tactical game. Mage PCs own this game, so take them out of the equation.

 

EDIT: Configure your archer as stealing / lock guy to maximise your income and concentrate of the AK47 critical hit archery route, pump DEX to the 40's. Configure Zevran as a high CUNNING melee rogue, by mid teen levels he'll easily have 100% defence with the right kit, let him also be trap / poison guy.

 

My first playthrough I was really reliant on Morrigan to quickly kill and disable groups of enemies. I used a lot of Cone of Cold + shatter.

 

My current playthrough I resolved to just use Wynne as a pure healing mage. And rely on my fighters to kill everything. (Level 10 dual wield Rogue, Alistair and Leliana)

 

I am finding it much tougher without crowd control spells. Especially a cutscene battle where I was swarmed by a lot of werewolves. And a random encounter with twelve archers and two shrieks.

 

I think I need to build and equip my fighters better. And take some crowd control spells for those situations.

Edited December 10, 2009 by SeanM

[Monte Carlo]

Where's the competition in DA?

 

No, I mean bringing that MMO mindset to a single-player game. From my camouflaged bunker at the Bio site you can see that lots of hardcore MMO players are completely smitten with Dragon Age and want it to be a MP / MMO style game. Of course, they don't realise that the reason they are smitten with DA is because it isn't a MP / MMO style game.

 

Oh the irony.

 

Anyhow, with Morrigan and dopey Al there are already enough griefers in the game without the MMO crowd joining in

[Spider]

Some people like the number crunching. I'm one of them. And I don't play MMO's (but if I would, I would be one ot the math-obsessed locust). Even in single player RPGs, I like to get the most out of my character (I'm not quite as concerned with NPCs though). Which is also why I played on Nightmare, because I still want a challenge. I want the effort I put in to building my character to be worth it.

 

That's not to say I don't make choices based on flavor. Even if I had read that rogue post before playing the game, I wouldn't have gone with dual dagger. I just like what DW Mastery does more.

[Gromnir]

Here is someone who really dissected the rogue damage output (yeah same guy that was linked to by Enoch above, but different thread).

 

http://social.bioware.com/forum/1/topic/66/index/223777

 

Dagger/Dagger cunning-based is the clear and definite winner as far as DPS is concerned. It's quite informative in regards to how the system works.

 

 

yeah. of course the numbers still assume 100% hit rate and use of tainted blood... and unlikely equipment for much of game. Gromnir avoids tainted blood like the plague... which is one of the oft mentioned complaints of the linked calculation. the 100% hit rate also fails to consider the significant difference between attack ratings. in addition, the formula seems to assume a 100% backstabbing, which is in our experience, highly unlikely or self defeating. if Gromnir achieves only 3 attacks while some other player is setting up a backstab, Gromnir has already complete nullified the superior backstab damage, no?

 

HA! Good Fun!

[Spider]

Yeah, but you don't get 3 attacks while setting up backstabs. Probably one. It's really easy to get into flanking position (and if you start off with a stun attack, you get there automatically). Besides it isn't extremely relevant against goons. DPS matters most against bosses, where three attacks won't cut it by a long shot.

 

I agree that Tainted Blood should probably not be in the equation, but even without it, daggers and cunning will come out on top.

 

As for equipment, does it matter? The comparison is assuming top of the line equipment for all variations, it's not like one build gets shafted because it has poor weapons. The biggest effect would probably come from removing runes from the equation, since the higher attack speed of the daggers have a big effect there. Even so, cunning variations with the same weapons still outdamage str variations.

 

I will give you that the hit rate is a big factor though and one that is still a bit of a mystery. If higher strength translates into a 10% higher hit rate, then of course things changes.

[Enoch]

So I've mostly worked out what I want in my rogue. But I'm still trying to decide on initial skills.

 

Rogues start with Poison 1, get one Skill based on origin (Dwarf Nobles get Combat Training 1), and get to pick one more at each odd-numbered level (including 1st). I want Momentum ASAP, which means I need to get Combat 2 and 3 quickly. So, if C2&3 are to be my level 3&5 skills, what else do I take at level 1-- Stealing, Traps, or Coercion? I'm willing to wait on Traps until I have enough Stealth to make it useful. I do think it'd be fun to run around the Origin and Ostagar taking everything that isn't nailed down. But not having any Coercion before level 7 is probably going to be frustrating. If I do skip Stealing early on, I'm not going to take any of it with my main character at all.

 

I'd welcome comments from anybody who remembers the early bits of the game better than I do-- what are the relative benefits of early Coercion and Stealing?

[Monte Carlo]

^ If you want to go with a plain cost / benefit analysis go locks - the junk you can pick up and sell will see you heading off to Lothering with up to 10 gold in your grubby mits.

 

A point in coercion will allow you to solve two quests IIRC in Ostagar, the mage's chest is particularly worthwhile (although you can also solve that one with stealing or coercion), the other gets you a nice early game longsword.

 

I went one point coercion / one point locks and got everything. I was a human noble though, but I didn't feel any rush to get momentum - early game dirty fighting and dual weapon sweep are pretty good.

[deganawida]

^ If you want to go with a plain cost / benefit analysis go locks - the junk you can pick up and sell will see you heading off to Lothering with up to 10 gold in your grubby mits.

 

A point in coercion will allow you to solve two quests IIRC in Ostagar, the mage's chest is particularly worthwhile (although you can also solve that one with stealing or coercion), the other gets you a nice early game longsword.

 

I went one point coercion / one point locks and got everything. I was a human noble though, but I didn't feel any rush to get momentum - early game dirty fighting and dual weapon sweep are pretty good.

 

What two quests are there, and how do you get the longsword? The only quest that I knew that required coercion was

the hungry prisoner

; what's the other one?

[Enoch]

^ If you want to go with a plain cost / benefit analysis go locks - the junk you can pick up and sell will see you heading off to Lothering with up to 10 gold in your grubby mits.

Locks is a Talent, not a Skill.