Terrorists

[Humodour]

http://www.theaustralian.news.com.au/story...5001561,00.html

 

AUSTRALIA'S marathon terror trial was a jigsaw puzzle made up of a mass of circumstantial evidence, the jury was told. What the jurors didn't know was that several crucial pieces were missing from the puzzle they had to assemble.

 

Originally nine men were to have faced trial. But over the past year, four of them pleaded guilty to a range of offences including carrying out acts in preparation for a terrorist act, and were sentenced to between three and 14 years in prison. These facts were subject to non-publication orders issued by judge Anthony Whealy, as they could have seriously prejudiced the remaining five men's right to a fair trial. Only now can these critical pieces of the puzzle be revealed.

 

The four men who pleaded guilty were named during the trial as co-conspirators.

 

Among them was a 28-year-old Lebanese-Australian man with a troubled family background and a record of serious drug abuse which led to severe mental illness. Another was a 33-year-old refugee from Bosnia, described by neighbours as an honest, reliable family man who had become a born-again Muslim.

 

The four co-conspirators were troubled souls who had turned to religion to straighten themselves out. A psychologist who interviewed the 28-year-old reported: "After he began to realise he had a problem, he began to hang out with Muslims. They reminded him of God. He attended the mosque regularly (because) this made him relaxed."

 

It was at the notorious Haldon Street prayer room in Lakemba, Sydney, a long-time target of ASIO, that he and his associates embraced the view that Islam was under attack and it was their obligation to undertake violent jihad to defend it.

 

A third co-conspirator, who cannot be named, told a prison psychologist he was inspired by the London bombings of July 7, 2005. The psychologist reported: "(He) thought if he could do something similar in Australia without hurting people, it would extend awareness of aggression against Muslims and alert Australians to oppose the government and stop the nations alliance with the US."

 

The evidence which prompted the co-conspirators to plead guilty was highly incriminating.

 

In February 2005 two of the men visited a militant cleric. The cleric was heard telling the 28-year-old man in a covertly recorded conversation: "If we want to die for jihad, we do maximum damage, maximum damage. Damage to their buildings with everything and damage to their lives, just to show them."

 

The following month, two of the others were bugged discussing how they needed to get fit in order to "shoot some motherf***ers". One of them was also heard discussing his attempts to make an improvised explosive device using copper pipe. In June 2005 the same man bought 7500 rounds of ammunition suitable for use in a semi-automatic weapon such as an AK-47.

 

In October 2005, the 28-year-old man was caught at a suburban Big W store in Sydney after stealing six clocks and 140 batteries which he had hidden in chip boxes. He confessed that this constituted an act in preparation for a terrorist act. Justice Whealy, who sentenced him last month, said the clocks and batteries were items capable of constructing six timed explosive devices.

 

He was sentenced to a minimum prison term of just under four years, discounted due to his mental illness. His non-parole period expired this week and he was released on Thursday.

 

The 33-year-old, whose admission to possessing ammunition constituted a relatively minor role in the conspiracy, was released in May this year after serving his sentence of three years and six months.

 

an associate, "I am going to blow up the nuclear place", according to a police statement tendered in evidence at the Central Local Court in Sydney in 2007. The rocket launchers, which are believed to have been hidden in PVC pipes and buried in bushland near Sydney, have never been found. This was not part of the evidence on which the man was tried.

The four men convicted with him had also been under watch for years. They were all regular attendees at the now notorious Haldon Street, Lakemba, prayer room, which has been closely monitored by the authorities since before September 11, 2001.

 

One of the accused, a 40-year-old, was well known to ASIO. A devout Muslim who lived with his Australian wife and four children in Lakemba, he first came to attention for his links with the Indonesian militant group Jemaah Islamiah. In 1999 he attended bush training camps in the Blue Mountains with a JI militant sent from Malaysia to conduct such training. He was also closely linked to the Frenchman Willie Brigitte, who was dispatched to Australia in 2003 by the Pakistani militant group Lashkar e Taiba to carry out a terror attack of great size, according to French prosecutors. He was one of Brigitte's key contacts in Australia, with phone intercepts revealing that Brigitte rang him 42 times. In July 2005 he was charged with lying to ASIO about his relationship with Brigitte, after admitting to only a handful of conversations with him.

 

His co-accused, a 36-year-old man and that man's nephew, 32, were also high on ASIO's watchlist, as they were both believed to have undergone military training with LET. Another Australian man has described traveling with the 36-year-old in 1999 to an LET camp in Pakistani-controlled Kashmir where he says they were trained in weapons and explosives use. This was not illegal at the time as LET was yet to be proscribed by the Australian government and the assertion was not part of the evidence in the trial.

 

The 36-year-old was accused, along with the 44-year-old, of being one of the leaders, one of the thinkers behind the conspiracy. The 32-year-old nephew was claimed to have trained with LET in testimony provided by a Korean-American militant, Yong Ki Kwon, who said he had seen him at the camp in 2000 but admitted he could have been mistaken. The nephew denied having been there.

 

The fifth and youngest of the group, a 25-year-old, was also of keen interest to ASIO, mainly because of the activities of two of his brothers.

 

In addition to these five, another four men - all relative newcomers to the counter-terrorism watchlist - were named as co-conspirators. They were all young men with troubled backgrounds and a history of drug and alcohol use who had embraced radical Islam. The fourth was a migrant from eastern Europe, aged 33.

 

These four men did not face trial. Unbeknown to the jury, two of them pleaded guilty late last year to doing acts and possessing things connected with preparation for terrorist acts. Two others pleaded guilty to the lesser charge of possessing a thing to be used in a terrorist act.

 

The case unveiled over the last year in the Supreme Court at Parramatta began in July 2004, when ASIO and the AFP got authorisation to install telephone intercepts and listening devices and began physical surveillance of the nine men and their associates.

 

Within days of the operation starting, agents eavesdropping on their conversations learned that one of the men was in contact with a Muslim cleric who was well known for his militant views and who was also under surveillance. The cleric was overheard in an intercepted conversation with another follower in September 2004 discussing "doing something big ... like Spain," a reference to the 2003 Madrid train bombings that killed 191 people.

 

The investigation cranked up a notch in December 2004, when three of the men were picked up by police riding a trail bike in the vicinity of the Lucas Heights nuclear reactor in Sydney. The 44-year-old man explained that they were test-riding a bike as a gift for his son, but police were not convinced, although there was no evidence the facility was a target.

 

As the months wore on, the alarm bells rang louder, triggered by a series of events. The 44-year-old purchased 10,000 rounds of ammunition from a Sydney gunshop. One man was monitored arranging the purchase of a similar quantity of ammunition and discussing experiments he had conducted in making an improvised explosive device using copper pipe.

 

Most disturbing of all, the cleric was overheard telling one conspirator in February 2005: "If we want to die for jihad, we do maximum damage, maximum damage. Damage to their buildings with everything and damage to their lives, just to show them."

 

In March 2005, four of the conspirators went on a camping trip to a remote bush property at Curranyalpa in western NSW, the first of two excursions described by the prosecutor as bonding trips. They were booked in false names using mobile phones, which were also registered under made-up names.

 

By June 2005, the pace of activity was accelerating. The 40-year-old and the 44-year-old placed an order for 55 items of laboratory equipment with a supplier. The next day two others were caught loading 15 boxes of ammunition into a car, having earlier been bugged talking about how they needed to get fit to "shoot some motherf--ers".

 

A series of raids was carried out by ASIO and the federal police in late June 2005 to "fire a shot across the bows of the organisation", in the prosecutor's words, and flush out more evidence. But the men only escalated their activities further.

 

There was a surge in covert SMS contact between two ringleaders using phones in false names and coded messages in which they called each other "darling" and "sweetie" when arranging to meet. The crown alleged the men were busy caching weapons in the bush, although no such stash was found.

 

The development that brought the investigation to its climax was when some of the men began to order bulk loads of chemicals.

 

In August 2004, 24 400ml bottles of hydrogen peroxide were found hidden on land behind one man's home. In late September another conspirator bought a further five bottles of the same chemical at two Sydney pharmacies. Six days later, two of the men went to Autoking in Punchbowl and ordered 200l of sulphuric acid. The same day the 25-year-old placed an order with another supplier for 200l of methylated spirits, 50l of hydrochloric acid, 25kg of citric acid and 20l of glycerine. In separate outings to two hardware stores, the 40-year-old ordered a further 200l of methylated spirits and 120l of acetone. The chemicals are known precursors for high-powered explosives such as HMTD and TATP, known as the mother of Satan.

 

By late 2005 ASIO and the AFP were convinced it was time to act. But it was still unclear exactly what offence the men had committed under the existing counter-terrorism laws, which required that a specific terrorist attack had to be conceived.

 

In early November, after prime minister John Howard was briefed on the investigation, federal parliament was recalled for an emergency session in which the wording of the terror laws was changed from "the terrorist act" to "a terrorist act". Four days later, on November 8, 2005, Australia's largest counter-terrorism operation moved into its final phase, and the arrests were made in a series of raids.

 

It took three years for commonwealth prosecutors to bring the case to court as they compiled what one defence counsel called a "tsunami" of evidence. It included more than 3000 exhibits, testimony from 300 witnesses, 18 hours of telephone intercepts and 30 days worth of surveillance material.

 

In September last year, the prosecution scored a major breakthrough when people started pleading guilty.

 

The guilty pleas were a coup. But unfortunately for the police and prosecutors, the four men who pleaded would not be interviewed or give evidence against their co-accused. So precisely what terrorist act they might have committed had their plans come to fruition remains a mystery. And the case against the five men left to face trial remained entirely circumstantial.

 

Prosecutor Richard Maidment SC admitted there was no smoking gun and no clear evidence as to what action was to be carried out and what targets were to be selected. The case, he said, was a large mosaic, a jigsaw puzzle for the jury to put together.

 

After 40 weeks of hearings and 23 days of deliberation, the 12 men and women of the jury ultimately accepted the crown version of events.

 

Sheesh, glad those ****s were caught. There's been quite a lot of these terrorist plots in Australia in the past 10 years, but they've all been caught. That they get caught makes me hopeful. That so many happen makes me worried - what if ASIO misses one eventually? Granted, that seems unlikely. It looks like ASIO catches wind of these plots really quickly and then bides their time building up lots of evidence to convict with.

 

Anyway, if this is the type of **** going on in a relatively small country like Australia, one can only imagine what's happening in America.

 

Oh, for reference:

ASIO = Australian Security Intelligence Organisation.

AFP = Australian Federal Police.

Edited October 17, 2009 by Krezack

[Hurlshort]

I just wish that the rest of the Muslim world would be a heck of a lot more proactive in their condemnation of terrorists. I'm not saying there aren't a lot of Muslims standing against this stuff, but it really needs to be a widespread movement. Extremists like this are the real enemies of Islam, they pervert the real message of Mohammad.

[Gorgon]

I get what you are saying, but on the other hand it's not like the rest of the Muslim world constantly has to apologize for not being crazy.

[213374U]

I just wish that the rest of the Muslim world would be a heck of a lot more proactive in their condemnation of terrorists.

When they can't even stand each other, it's difficult to imagine that they would agree to stand together against something other than Israel. And even then...

[Humodour]

I just wish that the rest of the Muslim world would be a heck of a lot more proactive in their condemnation of terrorists. I'm not saying there aren't a lot of Muslims standing against this stuff, but it really needs to be a widespread movement. Extremists like this are the real enemies of Islam, they pervert the real message of Mohammad.

 

Indonesia despises terrorism and is very proactive in rooting it out and works with our government often. That's a handy thing when your nearest neighbour is also the largest Muslim country in the world. Imagine if it were Iran instead or something. Uhg.

 

But I think you'll find most Muslims in countries like Turkey, India, Indonesia, Malaysia - most of the Muslim world - speak out pretty strongly against terrorism. The Arab world not so much, but remember that the Arab world is only a minority when it comes to the Muslim world.

[Walsingham]

Short answer is Muslims condemn terror every day. Which in some cases takes real balls, since it is often visited with 'punishment' from the terrorists. Some don't. We're working on that. And I think publishing accounts of what really motivates these looney tunes helps. As you've done.

 

 

I agree that no-one seems to regard terror as important. As if it's been a massive scam. The only reasons I can think of for feeling that way are either laziness, or simply finding it less threatening to be under threat from their own government. Which I guess would be appealing if you already felt that way.

 

EDIT: In case anyone's unclear I'd like to condemn Loyalist terror in Northern Ireland, and white supremacist terror, and anti-abortion terror, which might otherwise be construed as being associated with me.

Edited October 19, 2009 by Walsingham

[The Illuminator]

I don't believe the terrorists shall vanish even if all of the Muslim countries stand against them as long as there are some western evil politicians who gain profit from the actions of terrorists. I can sum some of the profits below:

 

-When a terrorist kills a western citizen a rage pops up amongst the people who experience the fear of death from the action of that terrorists.

-The evil politicians having relationships with weapon industry or having the intention of invading a Muslim country for its natural resources like oil, try to abuse that fear via attempting to convince the population of that country for a possible attack or invasion to the country which the terrorist has his origins.

 

Giving examples to my claims are easier.

 

-When 9/11 attacks happened American citizens easily approved the invasions of Afghanistan and Iraq and so, new hi-tech weapons are tested on those weak countries having 'no' army. Oil of Iraq is being abused and weapons are continuing to be tested in Afghanistan.

-Israel uses the same method to test weapons on weak Palestinians

-If there was no such an attack like 9/11, I think it would be hard to convince American population for those invasions.

-Countries like Australia has soldiers in Iraq or Afghanistan.

-To keep those soldiers in those countries, the fear for terror must be kept alive and I believe that's why potential terrorists are being kept by the servant governments of such countries and when they think the citizens of those countries start to think those invasions are not necessary, those potential terrorists are used to reawake the fear and rage against Muslim countries to continue to keep the soldiers there.

 

You may believe that 9/11 was not organized by CIA or FBI, but I believe the opposite as the conspiracy theories about them have very scientific and logical explanations.

 

If you examine those terrorists, you may easily recognize that they are illiterate and are very easy to be deceived with a little religious propoganda.Such people are easy to find in undeveloped Muslim countries and even if the governments of those Muslim countries act against such potentials, a CIA agent may easily find someone to use again and again as long as countries like USA don't give up using illiterate low IQed Muslims for feeding their war mongerism.Those abused illiterate Muslims simply can't recognize that they are being used like a tool to form a reason to kill more Muslims. If they were to use their logic and had the mental capacity to think the results of the actions they perform, no Muslims countries would be invaded so easily, but they are obviously not capable of it.

 

So I think the key to end this vicious cycle is the citizens of USA or England or other countries whose citizens are being deceived and affected via terrorist toys. If they stay calm and show a will not to support invasions, then politicians may one day stop that evil method.That is neither easy nor impossible. I actually see a little hope for it when I examine the results of the last US elections:

 

-candidate Mc Cain and Palin were just like blood thurst monsters trying to deceive voters via pumping hatred against Islam with propogandas like ''All Muslims must vanish from the earth and invasions must continue with increased numbers of soldiers''. I know that McCain was in co-operation with a fanatic priest having the same anti-Islamic opinions above. Palin was McCain's opponent but was sharing the same opinions and her only difference was her gender and physical appearance.

 

-though I find still not enough, candidate Obama was by far much more peaceful choice when compared with McCain and Palin and surprising me, voters have chosen Obama and have shown that they do not want more Muslim blood.

 

I mean that the will of western citizens must continue if terror is to end as I think otherwise evil politicians shall continue to abuse illiterate Muslims for their blood hunger and the earth shall be divided with religious hatred. Plitical elections are tests the mood of the citizen and when they resist on not feeding with war mongerer propoganda maybe the artificial polarity growth between Muslim and Christ population ends.

[Gfted1]

What possible benefit is there for the US to run an unending war? The trillions spent? The thousands of soldiers lost? All to "test new weapons"? C'mon. You could have at least trotted out ye ole standby "we want their oil" dur hur.

[mkreku]

What possible benefit is there for the US to run an unending war? The trillions spent? The thousands of soldiers lost? All to "test new weapons"? C'mon. You could have at least trotted out ye ole standby "we want their oil" dur hur.

It's not funny until one of you right wing nuts bring out the "we're doing it from the goodness of our hearts". Why do YOU think the US spends trillions on war? For no national benefits at all?

[Hurlshort]

Of course there are a combination of factors that lead a country into a war, but claiming that we created 9/11 is right there with claiming Pearl Harbor and the Kennedy assassination were run by spooks.

[The Illuminator]

Of course there are a combination of factors that lead a country into a war, but claiming that we created 9/11 is right there with claiming Pearl Harbor and the Kennedy assassination were run by spooks.

You are free not to believe it, however I believe the opposite for some reasons.

 

Having no deep knowledge of the Pearl Harbor, I can simply say that it made American citizens to approve the atomic bomb sent to Japan more easily.

 

What possible benefit is there for the US to run an unending war? The trillions spent? The thousands of soldiers lost? All to "test new weapons"? C'mon. You could have at least trotted out ye ole standby "we want their oil" dur hur.

I have mentioned a few more reasons besides testing new weapons. Also it is obvious that some actions of US government were and are illogical like sending billions of dollars to Israel every month despite the economy being worse everyday or insisting on the invasions that are again damaging the economy and increasing the number of jobless citizens.

 

I remember that once during 2004 Bush was to give 1 billion $ to Turkey as a compensation for Turkey's economical damage because of Iraq invasion, however a big reaction on American media has popped up for that money. Tv channels like CNN started to question it. Propogandas like 'your taxes are being sent to Turkey' have been made on American citizens and it worked as angry ones made phone calls on such tv shows critisizing that aid. At last that money is cancelled.

 

However, amazingly I see absolutely no opposition to the hundreds of billions of dollars being sent to Israel every month, as an economical aid, neither on tv channels, nor amongst American citizens, and everybody know how that money is being used by butcher Israelian politicians. This must be another illogicality you mention above.

[Walsingham]

The notion that jihad-fascist terrorism only exists because of some wrong were doing to the 'muslim world' is balls. It's just excuse making.

 

On a fundamental level jifascism is a revolutionary doctrine espousing total world domination in a single ummah. The only 'provocation' such a view requires is that we are not yet bowing before it.

 

As for bleating about them having 'no' army, as you so quaintly put it, that is their responsibility not ours. And if I had no means of defending myself I wouldn't have been so provocative. I'd say it was less us bullying them and more 'suicide by superpower'.

[The Illuminator]

The notion that jihad-fascist terrorism only exists because of some wrong were doing to the 'muslim world' is balls. It's just excuse making.

I think the opposite.

 

On a fundamental level jifascism is a revolutionary doctrine espousing total world domination in a single ummah. The only 'provocation' such a view requires is that we are not yet bowing before it.

The truth is that the thing you call jifscism was formed by British-American Intelligent Services to weaken Soviet Union. However, now, it is weakening themselves. I believe that it may also destroy those countries similar to Soviet Union if they insist on invasions as no country has the economical power to continuously deal with them.

 

The things I have mentioned in my former posts were the possible logical ways to end Christ-Muslim conflict, if it is desired to end the terror which was formed by again USA or England. If they are happy to continue test weapons on Muslims, and if Muslims are happy to continue to fight against them, this vicious cycle shall continue. In this case western media must not cry or bleat when a terrorist kills western citizens, as they are triggering this with hatred filled propogandas against the Muslim world.

 

As for bleating about them having 'no' army, as you so quaintly put it, that is their responsibility not ours. And if I had no means of defending myself I wouldn't have been so provocative. I'd say it was less us bullying them and more 'suicide by superpower'.

If they 'had' an army, surely USA or England could not dare to invade them, as they always choose the countries having 'no' army, when they decide to invade somewhere. Also I have no reason to bleat as I am not the one who is suffering. You must read my posts with a different imagination about me in your mind it seems.

[Gfted1]

Hold up, so Iraq didnt have an army when we invaded? Something along the lines of having the fourth largest army in the world at the time, fighting on their own home turf? Weird.

[Walsingham]

On a fundamental level jifascism is a revolutionary doctrine espousing total world domination in a single ummah. The only 'provocation' such a view requires is that we are not yet bowing before it.

The truth is that the thing you call jifscism was formed by British-American Intelligent Services to weaken Soviet Union. However, now, it is weakening themselves. I believe that it may also destroy those countries similar to Soviet Union if they insist on invasions as no country has the economical power to continuously deal with them.

 

The things I have mentioned in my former posts were the possible logical ways to end Christ-Muslim conflict, if it is desired to end the terror which was formed by again USA or England. If they are happy to continue test weapons on Muslims, and if Muslims are happy to continue to fight against them, this vicious cycle shall continue. In this case western media must not cry or bleat when a terrorist kills western citizens, as they are triggering this with hatred filled propogandas against the Muslim world.

 

As for bleating about them having 'no' army, as you so quaintly put it, that is their responsibility not ours. And if I had no means of defending myself I wouldn't have been so provocative. I'd say it was less us bullying them and more 'suicide by superpower'.

If they 'had' an army, surely USA or England could not dare to invade them, as they always choose the countries having 'no' army, when they decide to invade somewhere. Also I have no reason to bleat as I am not the one who is suffering. You must read my posts with a different imagination about me in your mind it seems.

 

Oh man, that's just cute. Created by the secret services?

 

1. All financing and weapons went via the Pakistani ISI

2. The ISI to give them the benefit of the doubt chose groups who did the most. The moderates simply spent less time and money actively fighting the Soviets than the extremists

3. Al Qaeda is far more influenced by the Egyptian Muslim Brotherhood, who were in turn marxist influenced. The traces are everywhere from the revolutionary aim, to the operational goals, and tactical trade skills.

4. I'm not denying there have been dark chapters in the various secret services, but to infer this makes everything they've ever done suspect is pure fairytales.

 

What is less cute is your comment about 'bleating'. When a western government deploys force it does so with a democratic mandate and democratic oversight, not to mention a free media. It doesn't magically wmake everything ok, but it means there is at least some sort of verification of cause and behaviour. There is a good deal of difference between that and 16 guys getting together over coffee and deciding they want to blow up, behead, and torture people because they're unhappy.

 

Let me be quite clear. There is NO DIFFERENCE between some bloke killing 100 people solely because he thinks he's fighting for God and one bloke killing 100 people because the voices in his head told him to.

 

I'm fortunate enough to have lost no-one directly to terrorism. But I have friends who have been directly affected and I'd appreciate it if you'd think a little harder than you are about which team you are cheering for.

[mkreku]

Hold up, so Iraq didnt have an army when we invaded? Something along the lines of having the fourth largest army in the world at the time, fighting on their own home turf? Weird.

Yeah, and all those WMD's too!! No, wait..

[The Illuminator]

Oh man, that's just cute. Created by the secret services?

 

1. All financing and weapons went via the Pakistani ISI

2. The ISI to give them the benefit of the doubt chose groups who did the most. The moderates simply spent less time and money actively fighting the Soviets than the extremists

Pakistani government at that time was a puppet of American government like most of the countries being indirectly managed in the same way, so your mentioning of the 'ways' how an anti-soviet organization was set by the US intelligent service makes no sense as it was not Pakistani government who from the start organized this overall.

 

So, if you are saying that it was Pakistan who set everything against the Soviet Union, then this may only be something to laugh at loudly.

 

3. Al Qaeda is far more influenced by the Egyptian Muslim Brotherhood, who were in turn marxist influenced. The traces are everywhere from the revolutionary aim, to the operational goals, and tactical trade skills.

So, do you mean that Soviets were sado-mazochists and have set Al Qaeda against themselves to willingly lose the battle in Afghanisan?

 

4. I'm not denying there have been dark chapters in the various secret services, but to infer this makes everything they've ever done suspect is pure fairytales.

I don't think so.

 

What is less cute is your comment about 'bleating'.

I think you are very ignorant about your own posts' cuteness. Your consideration about my overall posts as being just 'bleating' had absolutely 'no' relationship with 'cuteness' in my opinion.

 

When a western government deploys force it does so with a democratic mandate and democratic oversight,

I don't believe this. I have posted my opinions about the supposed democracy claiming to be applied on western countries in my former posts here, 3 years ago, multiple times. I will shortly repeat them.

 

-In west, democracy is only being used to decipher the political opinions that are not parallel to the authority who is ruling those countries.

-When they decipher the different opinions, -especially the ones against the imperialist governmental actions- they start to quiet them via various threatening methods usually ending with an exile from the country, if they insist to oppose them.

-All of the Muslims living in the US are under constant psychological pressure and are labeled as potential terrorists. They are forced to be enslaved by American political ideologies, and when they do not obey, they are arrested, are taken to Guantanamo or are exiled. This is pure fascism which is not different then the heaviest communist regime.

-Fascism is not limited to the US, most of the western countries claiming to be democratic apply this. For instance in Switzerland if you just say 'Armenian genocide didn't happen', a cop comes and imprisons you with the order of the 'law'. Is this democracy? Where the hell is the freedom of speech or thoughts? This is just another pure fascism example in a country in the center of the Europe.

-Also in Switzerland extremist right side political parties attempt to exile all Muslims not only from Switzerland, but also from Europe with figures depicting Muslims as crows. This is not only fascism, but also racism at least 'worse' then nazism. And they also claim that the towers of the Mosques(called Minare) are the symbols of Islamic imperialism and must be destroyed. Can you tell me what kind of psychological illness is this, as we, Muslims must destroy the bell towers of the Churchs in our countries if we are to act in the same way, was it called schizophrenia?

-More terrible fact is that Armenian lobies are forcing 'all' of the countries they have an influence in to be in the same fascism level with Switzerland, and tragedically some countries are willingly obeying this.

 

not to mention a free media.

I think the media is not much different than the government. They are ruled by the governments and are as fascist as governments. They consciously pick the news which are despising Muslims or showing them as terrorists to keep the hate against Islam and Muslims alive to again keep the citizen support for bloody invasions.

 

I can honestly say that the media in my country is just like a hydra with lots of heads, and if it was the same with American or English media, then my country could easily rule the earth.

 

It doesn't magically wmake everything ok, but it means there is at least some sort of verification of cause and behaviour. There is a good deal of difference between that and 16 guys getting together over coffee and deciding they want to blow up, behead, and torture people because they're unhappy.

I think I have stated my opinions in detail how and why those 16 guys get together and decide to plan some bloody invasions over weak countries in my former paragraphs in this thread.

 

Let me be quite clear. There is NO DIFFERENCE between some bloke killing 100 people solely because he thinks he's fighting for God and one bloke killing 100 people because the voices in his head told him to.

If you are directing George Bush, you are right. He mentioned the word crusaders in his first speech about the invasions of Iraq and Afghanistan and everybody knows that he also claims he talks with God, who is the orderer of those invasions in fact. You can read the article about that mad man here.

 

Thanks to Allah, not the rest of the Christ world was so mad and not all of the Christ countries supported him except a few mad ones.

 

I'm fortunate enough to have lost no-one directly to terrorism. But I have friends who have been directly affected and I'd appreciate it if you'd think a little harder than you are about which team you are cheering for.

If you attack someone unfairly and got beaten for this, you have 'no' right to cry about it.

 

I don't have any relatives or friends being directly affected by western terror in Muslim countries, and I don't need to have to, to crtitisize the western invasions and torture being applied on Muslims as I feel the responsiblity in myself to defend those weak and innocent people, and that's why I'm defending them. There is 'no' Muslim country sending transatlantic troops to invade a Christ country thousands of miles away from its borders.

 

Hold up, so Iraq didnt have an army when we invaded? Something along the lines of having the fourth largest army in the world at the time, fighting on their own home turf? Weird.

I think you obviously have not followed the Iraqi war well enough just to recognize that there was 'noone' from the Iraqi army who has fought against the US troops. If there was a possiblity for this, surely US troops would never attempt to invade Iraq.

[Gfted1]

Hold up, so Iraq didnt have an army when we invaded? Something along the lines of having the fourth largest army in the world at the time, fighting on their own home turf? Weird.

I think you obviously have not followed the Iraqi war well enough just to recognize that there was 'noone' from the Iraqi army who has fought against the US troops. If there was a possiblity for this, surely US troops would never attempt to invade Iraq.

 

 

I see....

 

Well, youre response coupled with mkreku's iron-clad logic has convinced me! Whatever you do, do not click this link as it will undoubtedly blow your mind.

[Rosbjerg]

I don't have any relatives or friends being directly affected by western terror in Muslim countries, and I don't need to have to, to crtitisize the western invasions and torture being applied on Muslims as I feel the responsiblity in myself to defend those weak and innocent people, and that's why I'm defending them. There is 'no' Muslim country sending transatlantic troops to invade a Christ country thousands of miles away from its borders.

 

Mostly because no-one is capable I'm sure.. And you are kidding yourself if you think America is fighting this war over religious matters, it's greed that rules the western world now, not creed.

 

For instance:

-All of the Muslims living in the US are under constant psychological pressure and are labeled as potential terrorists. They are forced to be enslaved by American political ideologies, and when they do not obey, they are arrested, are taken to Guantanamo or are exiled. This is pure fascism which is not different then the heaviest communist regime.

 

I would love to see your proof on this, I personally know 3 muslims living in America right now who are saying the place is a lot more tolerant than Europe when it comes to religion and that they can live in peace and go about their daily lives.. Sure there are some religious nuts in America who thinks that all muslims are the root of all evil, but then again, I'm pretty sure the opposite is true in your country.. and how are the Christians treated there?

 

I think you obviously have not followed the Iraqi war well enough just to recognize that there was 'noone' from the Iraqi army who has fought against the US troops. If there was a possiblity for this, surely US troops would never attempt to invade Iraq.

 

Again, you are kidding yourself.. Iraq had a big army, but it was in shambles and the Americans steamrolled them. Simply because they had complete air supremacy, better equipment, training and resources. If the army in Iraq hadn't fought the Americans on their terms the actual invasion might've lasted days instead of hours.

 

 

 

-Also in Switzerland extremist right side political parties attempt to exile all Muslims not only from Switzerland, but also from Europe with figures depicting Muslims as crows. This is not only fascism, but also racism at least 'worse' then nazism. And they also claim that the towers of the Mosques(called Minare) are the symbols of Islamic imperialism and must be destroyed. Can you tell me what kind of psychological illness is this, as we, Muslims must destroy the bell towers of the Churchs in our countries if we are to act in the same way, was it called schizophrenia?

 

-More terrible fact is that Armenian lobies are forcing 'all' of the countries they have an influence in to be in the same fascism level with Switzerland, and tragedically some countries are willingly obeying this.

 

Switzerland has no say in what goes on in the rest of Europe, as they are not part of the European Union or any other organization. So what ever plans they might or might not have is pretty irrelevant.. And while Switzerland is more extreme in it's immigration policy than most other European countries they aren't really trying to throw anyone out, just keep those out they don't want in.. Which isn't muslims per say, but anyone with no education and no desire to fully and completely integrate.. It's even impossible for me to get a Swizz citizenship..

 

Are you saying that the Armenian massacre didn't happen?

 

It's been documented by thousands of eyewitnesses, even allies of the Ottoman Empire. Why deny it? It's not like modern Turkey is responsible for what happened back then. Like modern Germany isn't responsible for what happened in WW2.

[alanschu]

Onur the courageous!!!

[213374U]

...wow. An Ottoman jingoist? Now I've seen everything.

[Walsingham]

Onur the courageous!!!

 

Onan

[alanschu]

Google "Onur the courageous"

[Walsingham]

We're getting sidetracked and derailed. On the plus side I'm beginning to think this guy may not be an alt after all. No one even remotely sane could use so many inverted commas.

 

A few quick points:

 

1. You find it impossible that the Soviets could have provoked a movement which later came back to bite them, but it's very likely that the USA would.

2. You claim the media are fascist, which isn't true, but then...

3. ...you also say "my country could easily rule the earth." which I think gilt-edges your overall character portrait. I don't mean to do down Turkey, because I happen to regard the country as one of the most dynamic and important potential EU member states.

4. You keep referring to Christian nations. It seems to me that you are trying to paint this as a battle of religions when it is no such thing. It is a battle between free nations and a self-appoint cabal of repressive arseholes.

5. Would you care to justify the thousands killed by Al Qaeda affiliates in Iraq and Afghanistan in attacks on schools, marketplaces, and other public amenities? Of course youw ould, because you are an apologist if not a sympathiser, and I call on you to own up and say so clearly and distinctly.

 

 

~~

 

This morning's news in the UK has focussed on the deaths of five soldiers who were shot by an 'undercover' Afghan policeman, and several papers have stated it calls into question our entire strategy. I think it could not be more wrong. The fact that the greatest losses coalition forces have suffered is down to things like treachery and helicopter accidents illustrates precisely why parrallels with Vietnam are so completely ignorant.

[Walsingham]

Police in the southern Philippines say the severed head of a kidnapped schoolteacher has been found in a bag at a petrol station.

Link

 

No doubt this is commendable and heroic.

 

Attackers in Afghanistan have sprayed acid in the faces of at least 15 girls near a school in Kandahar, police say... Correspondents say the attack is likely to have been carried out by those opposed to the education of women.

Link

 

No doubt equally commendable, and the result of Western devilry.