First failed state?

[Gfted1]

Some came legally, but stayed after their visa ran out. Others did not come here legally. All of them pay taxes, abide the law and pay for their own medical expenses. All of them dream about becoming legal.

 

 

Are you out of your mind? This is so far from being true I can only imagine youre making it up for the lulz.

 

1) As they do not have SSN's, they arent paying a dime in taxes. Not. One. Dime.

2) Abide by the law? Did you decide the link showing how illegal aliens are straining the prision system to the breaking point is false?

3) Pay their own medical? What? Seriously, are you just playing devils advocate or something?

[vault_overseer]

So now you never break any laws? I don't believe you.

 

EDIT:

 

Are you out of your mind? This is so far from being true I can only imagine youre making it up for the lulz.

 

1) As they do not have SSN's, they arent paying a dime in taxes. Not. One. Dime.

2) Abide by the law? Did you decide the link showing how illegal aliens are straining the prision system to the breaking point is false?

3) Pay their own medical? What? Seriously, are you just playing devils advocate or something?

 

You have no idea, do you?

 

I'm speaking from my own experience. Some of these people are my friends, some are family. I know how this works first hand.

 

1) Many use one SSN for the whole family, others have an SSN, but don't have a job permission. Those who have the number, but not job permission, make fake SS cards. Many small businesses don't check SS of their employees, so they end up having taxes taken out of their paychecks. IRS doesn't care if they're illegal, they're still paying.

2) My examples don't commit serious crimes. Not all illegal aliens are blood thirsty latino kings.

3) Yes, my best friend's father died from cancer in this country. They paid for everything on their own, even lost their house because of that(yes, they were illegal and were able to get a mortgage)

Edited October 7, 2009 by vault_overseer

[Killian Kalthorne]

If they are using someone else's SSNs then they are paying taxes, but the tax collected is being to the SSN that was stolen. There was a lot of identity thefts discovered at a meat packing raid in my state a year or so ago.

[Killian Kalthorne]

So now you never break any laws? I don't believe you.

Your belief is irrelevant. If you have evidence otherwise, show it.

[vault_overseer]

Your belief is irrelevant. If you have evidence otherwise, show it.

 

No, I can't prove that you have been punished for every crime you have committed. Maybe it's for the better, You seem very grounded in your belief in your own righteousness and I don't have enough time or interest to get into lengthy online debates anymore. I wouldn't mind picking it up in person, over a beer or two, though. So if you're ever in Chicago, reach out and I'll be glad to continue this over a pint.

Edited October 7, 2009 by vault_overseer

[alanschu]

As long as they came across the border legally, more power to them. I wish them all the success they get.

 

Amen. People in this thread are either being purposely dense or are willfully ignoring the difference between legal and illegal immigration.

 

But hey, what the hell, the illegals DESERVE to come and go as they please and bleed the country dry. Who the hell will pick our fruit! THINK OF THE FRUIT!!!1uno!

 

 

No, they are just not as willing to blame large chunks of your woes on illegal immigration.

[alanschu]

Your belief is irrelevant. If you have evidence otherwise, show it.

 

No, I can't prove that you have been punished for every crime you have committed. Maybe it's for the better, You seem very grounded in you belief in your own righteousness and I don't have enough time or interest to get into lengthy online debates anymore. I wouldn't mind picking it up in person, over a beer or two, though. So if you're ever in Chicago, reach out and I'll be glad to continue this over a pint.

 

 

I wouldn't get too caught up on Hades/Killian's posts. He's been notorious for bouncing all over the place and has actively stated and supported that the best solution for the middle east is to drop nuclear bombs and turn it all to glass.

Edited October 7, 2009 by alanschu

[Wrath of Dagon]

Many small businesses don't check SS of their employees, so they end up having taxes taken out of their paychecks. IRS doesn't care if they're illegal, they're still paying.

That's the whole problem in a nutshell right there. Our ****ed up government only pretends they care about enforcing the law.

[Gfted1]

As long as they came across the border legally, more power to them. I wish them all the success they get.

 

Amen. People in this thread are either being purposely dense or are willfully ignoring the difference between legal and illegal immigration.

 

But hey, what the hell, the illegals DESERVE to come and go as they please and bleed the country dry. Who the hell will pick our fruit! THINK OF THE FRUIT!!!1uno!

 

 

No, they are just not as willing to blame large chunks of your woes on illegal immigration.

 

 

Well, I suppose that would make them stupid then because a large chunk of California's woes are due to illegal immigrants. Theres no disputing the fact that 10's of billions of dollars per year of California's budget is directly tied into dealing with illegal immigration.

 

It would be interesting to dig up the numbers and see if there werent illegal aliens overflowing the joint, could they balance their budget.

[Rosbjerg]

Well, I suppose that would make them stupid then because a large chunk of California's woes are due to illegal immigrants. Theres no disputing the fact that 10's of billions of dollars per year of California's budget is directly tied into dealing with illegal immigration.

 

It would be interesting to dig up the numbers and see if there werent illegal aliens overflowing the joint, could they balance their budget.

 

It would be even more interesting to see how much money CA is actually making off of this. Because one thing is certain, if they were actually losing 10's of billions of dollars each year they would build a wall the size of China's on their southern border.. it would be cheaper you know.. And if a politician could actually save that much money by doing something that simple I assure you s/he would've been all over it decades ago.

[Wrath of Dagon]

If you're a politician in California who wants to do that, you will lose. That horse has already fled the barn.

 

Edit: Seriously, some of you guys need to read the article I linked at top of page 4. You're making comments without any understanding of American politics.

Edited October 7, 2009 by Wrath of Dagon

[alanschu]

Well, I suppose that would make them stupid then because a large chunk of California's woes are due to illegal immigrants. Theres no disputing the fact that 10's of billions of dollars per year of California's budget is directly tied into dealing with illegal immigration.

 

Sure is easy to call people stupid from your high horse. You've hardly demonstrated exceptional intelligence the past couple of weeks on this very forum.

 

 

Of course, if there's no disputing that 10s of billions of dollars per year of California's budget is sunk into the illegal immigration problem, it wouldn't actually be that hard to find the answers to whether or not they could balance the budget.

Edited October 7, 2009 by alanschu

[Pidesco]

And here I was thinking that one of the main reasons for California's status as one of the most powerful economies in the world was the easy access their industries have to very cheap labour. I wonder where that cheap labour comes from...

[Hurlshort]

Hades/Killian's criminal arguments are just silly because the legal system is not black and white. If illegal immigrants were really considered criminals by our justice system, then our prison system would suddenly be packed with them every day. The reason police and border patrol agents don't just round up folks at Home Depot is because it is not an enforceable violation. Deportation is a major undertaking, and so there typically has to be more involved than simply not having a visa.

 

There are quite a few unenforceable laws on the books, just go look up loony laws. I can't wear cowboy boots in certain towns unless I own at least two cows, and I can't whistle for a lost canary before 7 AM in Berkeley, CA.

 

 

Also, the 10 billion dollar hit attributed to illegal immigrant costs is for the entire US, not just CA. It is estimated that if we made all those folks legal, the cost would go up to about 40 billion. Again, it is all in www.cis.org.

[Gfted1]

Well, I suppose that would make them stupid then because a large chunk of California's woes are due to illegal immigrants. Theres no disputing the fact that 10's of billions of dollars per year of California's budget is directly tied into dealing with illegal immigration.

 

Sure is easy to call people stupid from your high horse. You've hardly demonstrated exceptional intelligence the past couple of weeks on this very forum.

 

Bwahaha, what, the percentage thing? Is that all youve got?

 

Of course, if there's no disputing that 10s of billions of dollars per year of California's budget is sunk into the illegal immigration problem, it wouldn't actually be that hard to find the answers to whether or not they could balance the budget.

 

Well, right there in post 37 the LA Times shows you almost 7 billion per year in money wasted on illegal immigrants, and thats just a few examples. Seriously, dial down the snark, you dont get any e-points for it, and engage your brain.

[Killian Kalthorne]

I wouldn't get too caught up on Hades/Killian's posts. He's been notorious for bouncing all over the place and has actively stated and supported that the best solution for the middle east is to drop nuclear bombs and turn it all to glass.

 

It would put an end to all that useless religious bickering and urge the nations of the world to seek alternative fuels than from oil since the major source of it would be unavailable for use. Besides, you know full well that the only way for there to be any peace in the Middle East one side will need to wipe out the other side in the form of genocide. The religious divide is too steep for there to be any reconciliation.

Edited October 7, 2009 by Killian Kalthorne

[alanschu]

Well, I suppose that would make them stupid then because a large chunk of California's woes are due to illegal immigrants. Theres no disputing the fact that 10's of billions of dollars per year of California's budget is directly tied into dealing with illegal immigration.

 

Sure is easy to call people stupid from your high horse. You've hardly demonstrated exceptional intelligence the past couple of weeks on this very forum.

 

Bwahaha, what, the percentage thing? Is that all youve got?

 

 

Well that, and your other insane rambling and nonsensical posts in the health care thread, demonstrating a complete inability to comprehend the arguments of others. I was willing to grant you some clemency as I thought you were just trying to be difficult in that thread, but watching you spout forth your ridiculous examples as analogies started to border on sad. As it went on, I was less convinced it was a show. This is in addition to your gross misunderstandings in this very thread (your "does not compute" post was another exquisite example).

 

But yeah, people are stupid. Easy to say that, when they don't believe what you believe. It just looks quite bad when you talk and behave stupid yourself.

 

Of course, if there's no disputing that 10s of billions of dollars per year of California's budget is sunk into the illegal immigration problem, it wouldn't actually be that hard to find the answers to whether or not they could balance the budget.

 

Well, right there in post 37 the LA Times shows you almost 7 billion per year in money wasted on illegal immigrants, and thats just a few examples. Seriously, dial down the snark, you dont get any e-points for it, and engage your brain.

 

I'll dial down the snark when people stop making stupid posts.

 

I'm not looking for e-points, but I will most definitely snark back at people that have increasingly demonstrated their inability to act intelligent. But yes a BLOG on the LA Times is clearly the most non-partisan source out there. Not only that, it's numbers completely refute the 10s of billions of dollars per year argument that you made earlier. Heck it doesn't even support the "almost 7 billion per year" argument that you just made!

Edited October 7, 2009 by alanschu

[Killian Kalthorne]

I'll dial down the snark when people stop making stupid posts.

 

At that rate you will always be snarky.

 

Snarkity snark snark.

Snarkity snark snark.

Look how snarky he is!

[alanschu]

Yeah pretty much

[Killian Kalthorne]

Your belief is irrelevant. If you have evidence otherwise, show it.

 

No, I can't prove that you have been punished for every crime you have committed. Maybe it's for the better, You seem very grounded in your belief in your own righteousness and I don't have enough time or interest to get into lengthy online debates anymore. I wouldn't mind picking it up in person, over a beer or two, though. So if you're ever in Chicago, reach out and I'll be glad to continue this over a pint.

 

It has nothing to do about being righteous. It has to do with respecting the Law. I doubt that I will ever be in Chicago. Been there once. Didn't like it. However, if you find yourself in Ames, Iowa I know this lovely pub called London Underground. It has a good selection of imported beers and from micro-brews.

[Fionavar]

Do we need a timeout from the sandbox? Do consider this rhetorical, as I so do not want to do anything all authoritarian-like ...

[Asol]

Well, I suppose that would make them stupid then because a large chunk of California's woes are due to illegal immigrants. Theres no disputing the fact that 10's of billions of dollars per year of California's budget is directly tied into dealing with illegal immigration.

 

It would be interesting to dig up the numbers and see if there werent illegal aliens overflowing the joint, could they balance their budget.

 

It would be even more interesting to see how much money CA is actually making off of this. Because one thing is certain, if they were actually losing 10's of billions of dollars each year they would build a wall the size of China's on their southern border.. it would be cheaper you know.. And if a politician could actually save that much money by doing something that simple I assure you s/he would've been all over it decades ago.

 

This is shades of grey from a 'she wanted it' or victim gained from the crime in some unquantifiable way sort of justification. The real strong point Hurlshot is making is the perception and relevance of the law, its virtually unenforcible. This thread becoming all immigration I agree its a problem, but this is like identifying the back breaker in a straw pile. On the bold line i don't feel like going tick for tack with bridge to nowhere and semi private airport stories but there is no great reason to be assured of something like that... The situation is caused by gross mismanagement.

Edited October 7, 2009 by Asol

[alanschu]

Taking a look at that LA Times internal link:

 

State Sen. Denise Moreno Ducheny (D-San Diego) who heads the Senate budget committee, counters that illegal immigrants are net contributors through their taxes and labor in farming and other industries. Cutting services to illegal residents is "penny wise and pound foolish," Ducheny said.

 

The Center for Continuing Study of the California Economy, based in Palo Alto, has analyzed research on the costs of illegal immigration. Most studies show that at least in the short term, illegal immigrants, who tend to be poorer and have more children than average, use more in public services than they contribute in taxes, the center found.

 

But the center's director, Stephen Levy, said some of the long-term effects were positive. Educating illegal immigrant children, for instance, helps them eventually land better jobs and higher salaries, benefiting Californians with increased tax payments and more sophisticated work skills.

 

Short-term costs with long-term positive effects?

[Kelverin]

Taking a look at that LA Times internal link:

 

State Sen. Denise Moreno Ducheny (D-San Diego) who heads the Senate budget committee, counters that illegal immigrants are net contributors through their taxes and labor in farming and other industries. Cutting services to illegal residents is "penny wise and pound foolish," Ducheny said.

 

The Center for Continuing Study of the California Economy, based in Palo Alto, has analyzed research on the costs of illegal immigration. Most studies show that at least in the short term, illegal immigrants, who tend to be poorer and have more children than average, use more in public services than they contribute in taxes, the center found.

 

But the center's director, Stephen Levy, said some of the long-term effects were positive. Educating illegal immigrant children, for instance, helps them eventually land better jobs and higher salaries, benefiting Californians with increased tax payments and more sophisticated work skills.

 

Short-term costs with long-term positive effects?

Not familiar with California classroom sizes? So my 6 year old who is in school and is with what 30-40 kids 1 teacher should suffer because maybe in the long term the illegals might be productive members of society? mmm ok

Edited October 7, 2009 by Kelverin

[mkreku]

Do we need a timeout from the sandbox? Do consider this rhetorical, as I so do not want to do anything all authoritarian-like ...

I have never started a thread that wasn't eventually locked!!

 

I need a dragon repellent.