First failed state?

[Syraxis]

I think the Blue states are really holding us back. I propose we form a Blue super state and a Red super state. Each would have its own congress, supreme court, and governor. There would still be a common president, but he would only deal with defense and foreign policy matters. This would solve a lot of political problems we're encountering, as well as let the Red states reach their full potential.

 

What results could one expect if the red states reach their "full potential"?

Edited November 16, 2009 by Syraxis

[Wrath of Dagon]

We'd be the most successful, productive "country" in the world, I mean even more so than now.

[Walsingham]

I think the Blue states are really holding us back. I propose we form a Blue super state and a Red super state. Each would have its own congress, supreme court, and governor. There would still be a common president, but he would only deal with defense and foreign policy matters. This would solve a lot of political problems we're encountering, as well as let the Red states reach their full potential.

 

So... no elections after that then?

[Wrath of Dagon]

Why no elections? I'm not sure what you're trying to say.

[Trenitay]

Aren't the Red states full of so-called "Conserv"atives. Conserve does not mean to progress.

[Wrath of Dagon]

You can progress all you want in your blue state, and leave us the **** alone.

[Walsingham]

Why no elections? I'm not sure what you're trying to say.

 

I mean, that you suggest states which are Red should stay Red, presumably. Meaning no more elections in case the Blues get in.

[Lare Kikkeli]

Heh, also looking at the state Florida, Louisiana etc. are in I doubt you'd last more than a few years without the northern states. Also California would probably go blue. But yeah go for it Dagon, I'm sure the yankees would like to drop all the excess baggage.

[Walsingham]

From an unlikely source, but one of the truest things I've ever heard:

 

The whole country's got a ****ed up mentality. We all got a gang mentality. Republicans are ****ing idiots. Democrats are ****ing idiots. Conservatives are idiots and liberals are idiots.

 

Anyone who makes up their mind before they hear the issue is a ****ing fool.

 

Chris Rock, ladies and gentlemen.

[Wrath of Dagon]

Why no elections? I'm not sure what you're trying to say.

 

I mean, that you suggest states which are Red should stay Red, presumably. Meaning no more elections in case the Blues get in.

No, you stay in the Red superstate, you still have elections as normal. I suppose every 10 years or so you could have a referendum if you want to switch superstates.

 

Also California would probably go blue. But yeah go for it Dagon, I'm sure the yankees would like to drop all the excess baggage.

It's a win-win.

 

As far as what Chris Rock said, I agree to an extent, you have to judge an issue objectively on its merits, but most of the time the evidence is not so clear cut and a lot of predictive assumptions are made, and that's where you have to rely more on ideology as a guide.

[Walsingham]

I concede the point about ideology helping. I mean I don't give a **** what science tells me objectively at any time, I'm not being a racist.

 

However, I think your notion of superstates is either a bit off-the-cuff or just frightening.

 

I genuinely think that the single biggest and most important thing the US needs is less division on lines of democrat/republican. You should oust the lot and send them to Russia. I mean Britain is hidebound, but even we manage to shift slightly these days. And not just by region. But by person. There's very few people these days who claim to be either Tory or Labour.

 

...Having said that many are now acting like ***ts and voting Liberal because they can't be bothered to think and want something middle-road when the Liberals are anything BUT liberal. Mental, possibly... but not liberal.

[Wrath of Dagon]

When US was set up, the idea was not to have any political parties and have candidates run for office strictly as individuals. As soon as that was put into operation, everyone realized what an impractical idea that was, so idea of party identification simply has to be accepted as an inevitable fact. The country at this point is closely split between liberals and conservatives which also follows geographical lines, which is extremely frustrating to both sides. I'm merely proposing a solution which should make everyone happy.

[Walsingham]

Bizarre thought: all people get the vote. However, you get your vote weighted according to how many randomly selected manifesto pledges you can identify from the main 4 candidates. The minimum you could score would be 0.5, and the maximum 1.0 It'll never happen.

[Wrath of Dagon]

Even a literacy test is illegal in the US.

[Walsingham]

Well, that kinda makes sense. In a way. If a politician didn't like an area which didn't vote for him he'd just target their schools. No literacy, no voting.

[Gorgon]

Why don't we just let people buy votes. 10.000 $ would get you one, 30.000, 3, and so on up to a maximum of 5. We could use the money for universal health care.

[TheHarlequin]

Business and skilled and educated workers are leaving to escape oppresively high (by US standards) taxes and punitive enviormental regulations.

 

The enviroment MUST come first. There is nothing wrong with that aspect. Business won't regulate themselves and will clear cut forests and dump in waterways if they could get away with it. All th the sake of making a $. If your company can't run without wrecking the enviroment maybe you deserve to go out of business.

[J.E. Sawyer]

I think the Blue states are really holding us back.

In what way? I hope you don't mean financially, as a lot of "blue states" often contribute more federal money than they receive. As the most relevant example, California generally receives less per capita than it pays per capita.

 

http://www.census.gov/prod/2009pubs/cffr-08.pdf

http://www.taxfoundation.org/research/show/266.html

 

West Virginia and New Mexico are notable "blue" exceptions. Of course, NM and WV are ranked 37th/36th in population as opposed to California, which is 1st by a large margin. There are also several high-population "red" states, like Texas, that federally give more than they receive per capita. I don't think either "side" is holding the others back.

 

Of course this also assumes that you can clearly divide red/blue, which you can't. My home state, Wisconsin, had a Republican governor for a long, long time -- but continued to send Democrat representatives to Congress and vote for Democrat presidential candidates. Texas has had an enormous number of Democrat governors -- of most notable recent interest, Ann Richards.

 

You'd be better off trying to split urban/rural, but even that doesn't make much sense.

[Guard Dog]

Business and skilled and educated workers are leaving to escape oppresively high (by US standards) taxes and punitive enviormental regulations.

 

The enviroment MUST come first. There is nothing wrong with that aspect. Business won't regulate themselves and will clear cut forests and dump in waterways if they could get away with it. All th the sake of making a $. If your company can't run without wrecking the enviroment maybe you deserve to go out of business.

Thats fine. If a particular state decides to deindustrialize and return to feudal/agrarian economics it should not complain where there is insufficient tax revenue to fund its government. Thats why I said it is a self inflicted wound

 

Here is a bit of news, Californias budget short fall is now at $21,000,000,000,000. Thats just the deficet! Just the difference between spending obligations and available capital. That is more the the GDP of eleven European countries!

 

http://www.reuters.com/article/marketsNews...177233220091118

 

Here is another bit of funny enviormental politics in California, they want to ban big screen TVs.

 

http://apnews.myway.com/article/20091118/D9C1S1080.html

 

Once again, if the folks in Sacremento want to ban big screen TVs, that is their business. But don't be suprised when someone says "To hell with this, I'm moving to Nevada" and they take their income and tax dollars with them.

[Wrath of Dagon]

I think the Blue states are really holding us back.

In what way? I hope you don't mean financially, as a lot of "blue states" often contribute more federal money than they receive. As the most relevant example, California generally receives less per capita than it pays per capita.

 

http://www.census.gov/prod/2009pubs/cffr-08.pdf

http://www.taxfoundation.org/research/show/266.html

 

West Virginia and New Mexico are notable "blue" exceptions. Of course, NM and WV are ranked 37th/36th in population as opposed to California, which is 1st by a large margin. There are also several high-population "red" states, like Texas, that federally give more than they receive per capita. I don't think either "side" is holding the others back.

 

Of course this also assumes that you can clearly divide red/blue, which you can't. My home state, Wisconsin, had a Republican governor for a long, long time -- but continued to send Democrat representatives to Congress and vote for Democrat presidential candidates. Texas has had an enormous number of Democrat governors -- of most notable recent interest, Ann Richards.

 

You'd be better off trying to split urban/rural, but even that doesn't make much sense.

I meant economically, through harmful Federal legislation, not Federal government subsidies, which don't make sense since a portion of them just goes to the Federal bureaucrats and also are counter productive being subsidies. For example, the Blue super state could have government run healthcare, while the Red super state would not. So I also meant holding each other back politically from where each wants to go. As far as Texas, yes it used to be yellow dog Democrat, but those days are long gone. I don't think trying to split urban from suburban/rural would work at all, I think you have to work at the granularity of states. As for the voting record, it doesn't matter, you'd have a referendum in each state to decide which super state to join, it being understood one would be more liberal and the other more conservative.

[Hurlshort]

Do you consider California a blue state?

[Wrath of Dagon]

Well yeah, look at the past 5 or so presedential elections, that's 20 years.

[Hurlshort]

Well yeah, look at the past 5 or so presedential elections, that's 20 years.

 

What about all the other things we vote on? California is actually a fairly evenly split state when it comes to political parties. Just look at the governor, and the recent Prop 8 victory was about as right wing conservative christian as you can get.

[J.E. Sawyer]

Here's my high level thought on California's sorry condition: many things have contributed to the current state of the state. I do not think any/many of these bad things will be corrected unless the state fails abjectly. My hope (though certainly not my belief) is that citizens will soberly consider the myriad structural problems in the state's legislative operation instead of spending a few years blaming specific politicians and political parties, accomplishing nothing. Personally, I would like to see ballot initiatives disappear, state legislative budget ratification shifted to a simple majority, state pensions overhauled, state prisons overhauled, and property taxes restructured -- basically a lot of things that might have made sense/seemed like good ideas way back when, but generally cause a lot of grief today. I doubt much of that will change. If not, oh well -- I'd be happy to go back to Wisconsin. As long as no one messes with places like Yosemite, Death Valley, Sequoia, Joshua Tree, etc., the best parts of California will be fine.

 

Here is a bit of news, Californias budget short fall is now at $21,000,000,000,000. Thats just the deficet! Just the difference between spending obligations and available capital. That is more the the GDP of eleven European countries!

It is really terrible, but let's also put this in perspective: in 2001, California was the world's 5th largest economy (by GSP/GDP), ahead of France. It's still in the top 10 and has a GSP of over $1.5 trillion, and is still about 13% of the United States' GDP.

 

Once again, if the folks in Sacremento want to ban big screen TVs, that is their business. But don't be suprised when someone says "To hell with this, I'm moving to Nevada" and they take their income and tax dollars with them.

Nevada isn't exactly 2009's economic powerhouse. They -- specifically Las Vegas -- were hit badly by the downturn in the housing market. I rode through Nevada in June and the outskirts of the city around 215 were mile after mile of empty housing complexes, many of them half-finished shells. The state's also projecting a large budget shortfall in 2010 -- 30% of their projected 2009 funding.

 

http://s.wsj.net/public/resources/document...4_20090408.html

 

As for the voting record, it doesn't matter, you'd have a referendum in each state to decide which super state to join, it being understood one would be more liberal and the other more conservative.

I hope OC and most inland counties like San Francisco values.

 

Maybe all of the San Diego expatriates who moved to Austin will move back after the Red Curtain falls on Texas.

[J.E. Sawyer]

It is also a big drain to our economy due to all the crap that goes on there. We lose more money off of California than what we make.

Where did you ever get this idea? Like many states, California contributes more in federal taxes than it receives in return.

 

Coincidentally, in the report I linked, Iowa received $1.10 in federal funding for every $1 it contributed in federal taxes. Sorry you won't be part of the union anymore.

 

Perhaps you can move to NOBLE WISCONSIN, recipient of $0.86 per $1 contributed.