Wrath of Dagon Posted October 7, 2009 Share Posted October 7, 2009 I also take issue with your idea that you can't spend money you don't have. The whole history of economic growth shows that spending money you don't have is a great way to grow and improve. Or don't you have business loans where you are? Only if you invest it into something productive. Governments invest it into spending irresponsibly. "Moral indignation is a standard strategy for endowing the idiot with dignity." Marshall McLuhan Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Walsingham Posted October 7, 2009 Share Posted October 7, 2009 I don't think it's weird to advocate organising into more homogenous systems. To pair a quasi industrialised area with a fully industrialised area in the northeast and a rapidly growing area on the west coast seems pretty bizarre. Which is why - despite the result being rubbish - I support the notion of Scottish independence in many matters. And why I am wholly against full European union. "It wasn't lies. It was just... bull****"." -Elwood Blues tarna's dead; processing... complete. Disappointed by Universe. RIP Hades/Sand/etc. Here's hoping your next alt has a harp. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Wrath of Dagon Posted October 7, 2009 Share Posted October 7, 2009 (edited) Part of it seems to me the fact that California does not have sovereignty, because if you take a look at places like Australia or Canada, which are of semi-comparable economic size, population, and culture, you see a vastly different picture. Interestingly, both Canada and Australia also have higher taxes in every regard, as well as bigger social welfare systems, AFAIK. Canada and Australia also have some of the biggest migrant intakes in the world. Canada is less affected by the current crisis mostly because their home mortgage rules are a lot saner than ours, ours are basically fraudulent. Australia is benefitting from the Chinese growth engine, while we lost most of our industrial base to them. Edited October 7, 2009 by Wrath of Dagon "Moral indignation is a standard strategy for endowing the idiot with dignity." Marshall McLuhan Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Walsingham Posted October 7, 2009 Share Posted October 7, 2009 I thought the idea was that one doesn't lose industrial base. One hands it down like a pair of corduroy trousers, and gets a shiny service industry based economy. "It wasn't lies. It was just... bull****"." -Elwood Blues tarna's dead; processing... complete. Disappointed by Universe. RIP Hades/Sand/etc. Here's hoping your next alt has a harp. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Junai Posted October 7, 2009 Share Posted October 7, 2009 (edited) If they spent 0.3 trill on CA instead of Afghanistan, every citizen, legal or illegal alien - mex, chinese or caucasian - could drive a Porsche, live in Malibu, go to the Spa and eat out in Hollywood 3 times a day, and have free healthcare. J. Edited October 7, 2009 by Junai Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Walsingham Posted October 7, 2009 Share Posted October 7, 2009 If they spent 0.3 trill on CA instead of Afghanistan, every citizen, legal or illegal alien - mex, chinese or caucasian - could drive a Porsche, live in Malibu, go to the Spa and eat out in Hollywood 3 times a day, and have free healthcare. J. Really? Because the population of California is NINE times the size. "It wasn't lies. It was just... bull****"." -Elwood Blues tarna's dead; processing... complete. Disappointed by Universe. RIP Hades/Sand/etc. Here's hoping your next alt has a harp. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Humodour Posted October 7, 2009 Share Posted October 7, 2009 Part of it seems to me the fact that California does not have sovereignty, because if you take a look at places like Australia or Canada, which are of semi-comparable economic size, population, and culture, you see a vastly different picture. Interestingly, both Canada and Australia also have higher taxes in every regard, as well as bigger social welfare systems, AFAIK. Canada and Australia also have some of the biggest migrant intakes in the world. Canada is less affected by the current crisis mostly because their home mortgage rules are a lot saner than ours, ours are basically fraudulent. Australia is benefitting from the Chinese growth engine, while we lost most of our industrial base to them. For Australia it's largely sound fundamentals like Canada (the banking regulatory systems are ranked equally healthy at something like 2nd strongest in the world, IIRC), the biggest interest rate cut in the world (equivalent to one or two fiscal stimulus packages every month or two), and then Chinese growth. But California had a problem long before this crisis and I'm focusing on that, not how hard the GFC is hitting them. For example, how do lines of credit differ between a sovereign nation of California's size and economic output, and California itself? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
GreasyDogMeat Posted October 7, 2009 Share Posted October 7, 2009 Erm, no. More the old "You have no right to complain about people not blending into the local culture when your own ancestors refused to do anything of the sort" argument. Maybe I was napping during history class but I don't remember the Iroquois being the culture that new immigrants were melting into. Like I said the first time, this is a 'Americans took the land from Native Americans, sit back and let it be taken by illegals' jab. I didn't say it was "trodding" at all; but I think it's pretty pathetic to complain about illegal immigrants not learning the language when you, it seems, are totally incapable of forming the present participle of the verb "to tread". Pots, kettles, colour-schemes. Yeah, had a brain fart after Hurl used trod. Thought it sounded odd, but rushed on. Difference is I'm not rushing across a border harming another country's economy, getting drunk and crashing into pedestrians and so on and so forth. If I did I would have the decency to learn the local language so I could communicate at a base level. Which I seemed to do with you as I got a lame comeback about native Americans and my poor grammar. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Wrath of Dagon Posted October 7, 2009 Share Posted October 7, 2009 Well, they can't print money, which I guess has something to do with their credit worthiness. But then again neither can any of countries using Euros. I think California's problems are due to their soft headed liberal government, but make no mistake about it, it's still one of the richest places on earth and the richest state in the US. "Moral indignation is a standard strategy for endowing the idiot with dignity." Marshall McLuhan Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
alanschu Posted October 7, 2009 Share Posted October 7, 2009 Difference is I'm not rushing across a border harming another country's economy, getting drunk and crashing into pedestrians and so on and so forth. What's the rate of incidence for this for everyone else? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Hurlshort Posted October 7, 2009 Share Posted October 7, 2009 Difference is I'm not rushing across a border harming another country's economy, getting drunk and crashing into pedestrians and so on and so forth. What's the rate of incidence for this for everyone else? I'll have to do some research, but I'm not sure if all 12 million illegal immigrants in the US take part in this cultural phenomenon. There are probably one or two who come across the border, learn English, and do their best to make a better life for themselves. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
vault_overseer Posted October 7, 2009 Share Posted October 7, 2009 I'll have to do some research, but I'm not sure if all 12 million illegal immigrants in the US take part in this cultural phenomenon. There are probably one or two who come across the border, learn English, and do their best to make a better life for themselves. I know at least five personally. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Killian Kalthorne Posted October 7, 2009 Share Posted October 7, 2009 As long as they came across the border legally, more power to them. I wish them all the success they get. "Your Job is not to die for your country, but set a man on fire, and take great comfort in the general hostility and unfairness of the universe." Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Gfted1 Posted October 7, 2009 Share Posted October 7, 2009 As long as they came across the border legally, more power to them. I wish them all the success they get. Amen. People in this thread are either being purposely dense or are willfully ignoring the difference between legal and illegal immigration. But hey, what the hell, the illegals DESERVE to come and go as they please and bleed the country dry. Who the hell will pick our fruit! THINK OF THE FRUIT!!!1uno! "I'm your biggest fan, Ill follow you until you love me, Papa" Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Killian Kalthorne Posted October 7, 2009 Share Posted October 7, 2009 Hell, I am all for Seasonal Work Visas for those who just want to came into our country for agricultural work legally. That would make sure that those who do their work pay their share of taxes and their employers pay a fair wage based on our wage/labor laws. "Your Job is not to die for your country, but set a man on fire, and take great comfort in the general hostility and unfairness of the universe." Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Rosbjerg Posted October 7, 2009 Share Posted October 7, 2009 Well it was quite easy back in the day when everyone who bothered were considered legal. I agree with Killian though in the fact that the law is the law and it should be followed. I just think it's sad that people have to live on the fringe of society and that the problem isn't taken care of in a better manner. But just to be clear, I'm not a fan of illegal immigration, we have that too, even though it's practically impossible to do in Denmark unless you have a network of relatives or something similar to help you out. I'm just a advocate of better immigration laws across the board, that also try to help immigrants to smooth the transition into society. At the same time I don't really want to point any fingers either, 'cause we could do a lot better too. Fortune favors the bald. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Killian Kalthorne Posted October 7, 2009 Share Posted October 7, 2009 Exactly. Create a fairer immigration system that can cater to all types of immigrants legally, regardless of nation of origin. If a person that is coming to our nation is just to do seasonal work, then the language and education requirements would be less stringent than if the person was seeking permanent residency. If we can also set up a secure online renewal system that would cut down on the time on approval and office visits. "Your Job is not to die for your country, but set a man on fire, and take great comfort in the general hostility and unfairness of the universe." Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Hurlshort Posted October 7, 2009 Share Posted October 7, 2009 Exactly. Create a fairer immigration system that can cater to all types of immigrants legally, regardless of nation of origin. If a person that is coming to our nation is just to do seasonal work, then the language and education requirements would be less stringent than if the person was seeking permanent residency. If we can also set up a secure online renewal system that would cut down on the time on approval and office visits. I completely agree with that. Unfortunately the costs of such programs seem to scare most politicians off. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
vault_overseer Posted October 7, 2009 Share Posted October 7, 2009 (edited) As long as they came across the border legally, more power to them. I wish them all the success they get. Some came legally, but stayed after their visa ran out. Others did not come here legally. All of them pay taxes, abide the law and pay for their own medical expenses. All of them dream about becoming legal. EDIT: Exactly. Create a fairer immigration system that can cater to all types of immigrants legally, regardless of nation of origin. If a person that is coming to our nation is just to do seasonal work, then the language and education requirements would be less stringent than if the person was seeking permanent residency. If we can also set up a secure online renewal system that would cut down on the time on approval and office visits. There needs to be a way for illegal aliens to become legal. Say, if they lived here for 10+ years, speak the language, paid the taxes and didn't break the law, they can pay a $2k fine and get a real SSN. Edited October 7, 2009 by vault_overseer Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Killian Kalthorne Posted October 7, 2009 Share Posted October 7, 2009 If they overstayed their visa they have broken the law, thus not in this country legally. By being in this country illegally they cannot "abide the law" because they had to break the law to be in this country. They should be held criminally accountable and deported. "Your Job is not to die for your country, but set a man on fire, and take great comfort in the general hostility and unfairness of the universe." Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Killian Kalthorne Posted October 7, 2009 Share Posted October 7, 2009 There needs to be a way for illegal aliens to become legal. Say, if they lived here for 10+ years, speak the language, paid the taxes and didn't break the law, they can pay a $2k fine and get a real SSN. I do not believe in giving amnesty to criminals. "Your Job is not to die for your country, but set a man on fire, and take great comfort in the general hostility and unfairness of the universe." Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
vault_overseer Posted October 7, 2009 Share Posted October 7, 2009 If they overstayed their visa they have broken the law, thus not in this country legally. By being in this country illegally they cannot "abide the law" because they had to break the law to be in this country. They should be held criminally accountable and deported. Have you ever broken the law? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Killian Kalthorne Posted October 7, 2009 Share Posted October 7, 2009 (edited) If I did break the Law I would expect to be held criminally accountable for my actions, however I do my best to obey the Laws of the nation, state, and city I live in. Edited October 7, 2009 by Killian Kalthorne "Your Job is not to die for your country, but set a man on fire, and take great comfort in the general hostility and unfairness of the universe." Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
vault_overseer Posted October 7, 2009 Share Posted October 7, 2009 (edited) If I did break the Law I would expect to be held criminally accountable for my actions. You did not answer the question. Edit: even with your edit, you did not answer the question. Edited October 7, 2009 by vault_overseer Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Killian Kalthorne Posted October 7, 2009 Share Posted October 7, 2009 In my youth, yes, and I was held accountable for my actions. "Your Job is not to die for your country, but set a man on fire, and take great comfort in the general hostility and unfairness of the universe." Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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