Our closest ally stabs us in the back

[Walsingham]

Does every damn post have to be an in depth analysis. A cadre of buxom bodyguards is worth mentioning for its own sake.

 

If we're just focussing on buxom bodyguards then I still say it's redolent of injustice. Where's MY cadre of buxom bodyguards? The best I've ever managed is one female bodyguard, and she wasn't buxom. Deadly, but not buxom. Blew up a dog.

[Gfted1]

Yikes, they had to swear to remain virgins! Whats the point of having buxom female bodyguards if they are virgins? Also, not as hot as Israelis:

 

[Walsingham]

I did have female bodyguards on other occasions, but they weren't really bodyguards in the genuine physical danger sense. They just told people they were my bodyguards. It doesn't count. Although they were buxom.

[Rostere]

A lot of people in this forum have very na

[taks]

um, 4. justice.

 

taks

[alanschu]

Khadafi wants to avoid sanctions and not be known mostly for harboring terrorists. He is not any kind of Islamic extremist, more just plain crazy. He survived two US bombing runs on his house and has an elite palace guard consisting entirely of buxom young women. That last part is always worth a giggle.

 

 

I need proof of this (the guards that is).

[Amentep]

Khadafi wants to avoid sanctions and not be known mostly for harboring terrorists. He is not any kind of Islamic extremist, more just plain crazy. He survived two US bombing runs on his house and has an elite palace guard consisting entirely of buxom young women. That last part is always worth a giggle.

 

 

I need proof of this (the guards that is).

 

Well the guards exist -

 

http://news.bbc.co.uk/2/hi/africa/6192630.stm

 

http://www.guardian.co.uk/world/2009/jun/1...taly-berlusconi

 

http://www.nytimes.com/2004/05/14/nyregion...en-on-film.html

 

http://muslimahmediawatch.org/2008/12/the-...ale-bodyguards/

 

Not much in the way of pictures, but here's a youtube video:

 

[Deadly_Nightshade]

...they believed that the best guards were either virgins or lesbians...

 

And how long did those virgins stay that way?

[Aristes]

um, 4. justice.

 

taks

Yes.

 

...And, Rostere, bro, we're naive? I think a lot of us are entirely realistic about the situation. It might have been a quid pro quo, but it might not. If this really is a matter of a public official acting in accordance to his role in office, then the law should definitely account for folks who kills hundreds of people. This isn't some guy who killed someone else in a fit of rage. it's not even someone who murdered his family before being caught and convicted. This is a someone who killed many families worth of people. The sheer number of people killed in the attack puts it on a different level than ordinary crime. I think terrorist acts should be handled differently by the system. Of course, I'm not from Scotland and I'm not related to any of the victims, so I don't have a stake in the fight other than to observe that it is not, as taks said, justice.

 

Meshugger is right about forgiveness. It is better of us to forgive that to condemn. However, balanced against that is justice. I believe sincerely that everyone with a repentant heart deserves forgiveness, but I also know that justice does not always demand forgiveness and it is sometimes beyond our human powers to forgive. If he repents of his crime, then someone will forgive him, perhaps even among the family of his victims.

 

Since he denied his crime the entire time, even when convicted, I don't think he had a truly repentant heart, but that's not for me to judge, thank God.

[Hurlshort]

I don't really know much about the case. Was he clearly guilty? I know he was tried and all, but I thought I heard there was some evidence that was iffy.

[Aristes]

For good or ill, I trust juries. That's true even when a lot of folks don't like the verdict. For example, OJ Simpson. That's why we have juries. Now, the one thing I don't know is if Meghari were convicted by a jury. I would think he had to be, but I never followed the case much at the time.

 

EDIT: Of course, where there is proof of jury tampering or some other factor, then of course that changes things.

Edited August 31, 2009 by Aristes

[Hurlshort]

I'm a fan of the jury system, but it isn't infallible.

[Aristes]

Yeah, that's true. It's not.

[alanschu]

I tend to not have much faith in the legal system to begin with, though admittedly I can't think of anything better.

[Zoraptor]

Guys, he wasn't tried by a jury, but by a panel of judges. His conviction was iffy at the time (the UN observer called it manifestly unsound) and it has only got less sound as one key witness has admitted to being bribed into giving false evidence- with respect to the circuitboard- while the key identity witness was both paid and had already seen and read articles with pictures linking Megrahi to the bombing, a fact that the prosecutors kept from the defence and the judges.

 

If you want a conspiracy theory for the release consider that his appeal was imminent, was not going to be a limited appeal (ie he could bring in everything including things like the covert CIA drug operation which saw the bomb bag not being searched) and he dropped it prior to being released. There was no way the conviction was going to stand, and that would mean all those lovely compensatory millions would revert back to Gaddafi.

 

Since we're getting all aerated and morally outraged itt , perhaps we could spare some small thoughts for the US Government- in the form of Capt. Will Rogers III- who shot down an Iranian airliner broadcasting a civilian IFF and on a standard civilian flightplan (killing 290), from inside Iranian territorial borders, while partaking in an unauthorised incursion from which he had already been ordered to withdraw but which order he was ignoring, blatantly and repeatedly lied about it, for which they were awarded medals and to this day hasn't even been apologised for, let alone anyone prosecuted.

Edited August 31, 2009 by Zoraptor

[~Di]

Guys, he wasn't tried by a jury, but by a panel of judges. His conviction was iffy at the time (the UN observer called it manifestly unsound) and it has only got less sound as one key witness has admitted to being bribed into giving false evidence- with respect to the circuitboard- while the key identity witness was both paid and had already seen and read articles with pictures linking Megrahi to the bombing, a fact that the prosecutors kept from the defence and the judges.

 

If you want a conspiracy theory for the release consider that his appeal was imminent, was not going to be a limited appeal (ie he could bring in everything including things like the covert CIA drug operation which saw the bomb bag not being searched) and he dropped it prior to being released. There was no way the conviction was going to stand, and that would mean all those lovely compensatory millions would revert back to Gaddafi.

 

Since we're getting all aerated and morally outraged itt , perhaps we could spare some small thoughts for the US Government- in the form of Capt. Will Rogers III- who shot down an Iranian airliner broadcasting a civilian IFF and on a standard civilian flightplan (killing 290), from inside Iranian territorial borders, while partaking in an unauthorised incursion from which he had already been ordered to withdraw but which order he was ignoring, blatantly and repeatedly lied about it, for which they were awarded medals and to this day hasn't even been apologised for, let alone anyone prosecuted.

 

You left out quite a bit about the Iran Air Flight 655 incident. Like the part where the USS Vincennes' helicopter was being fired upon by Iranian gunboats, which is why the Vincennes went into Iranian waters to go after the gunboats. When Iran Flight 655 appeared, it was apparently mistaken for an attacking fighter. Granted, this was a stupid, unforgiveable error... an error for which the US Government paid nearly $62 million to Iran in compensation. (Those interested can find out more about this incident here

 

It was a horrible incident caused by myriad breakdowns in communication, lack of proper equipment, and gross incompetence but it certainly wasn't a deliberate attempt to down a civilian airbus. However, PanAm 203 was most certainly a deliberate act. So let's not try to obfuscate that, shall we?

 

Since you have made such an audacious allegation, I'd like to see a legitimate source proving that the crew of the USS Vicennes were awarded medals for mistakenly downing a civilian Iranian aircraft.

Edited September 1, 2009 by ~Di

[Aristes]

I'd never heard any of that information, Zoraptor. I'm sceptical, but I'm always willing to look at new information. That is, as long as it's not some convoluted long drawn out bits of evidence tortured to 'prove' what someone wants it to say. Now, that might make me appear biased against you, and to a certain degree, I suppose I am, but I'm also willing to look at new facts and I have no problem admiting mistakes. I do that around here all the time.

 

The problem is that there is so much 'information' going around the internet. Some of it is true and some of it is false. For example, there are conspiracies, both by government and individuals and between countries and individuals from different countries. Nevertheless, the threshold for accepting claims of conspiracy is and must remain high. After all, I've seen a lot of 'evidence' of things relating to Sept 11. Folks make the most outrageous claims and some of those claims have been contradictory between different groups.

 

As far as Meghari goes, he was convicted. I'm sure it was in the interests of certain individuals, and most certainly in the interest of Libya and Gadhafi, to cast doubt on the conviction. Of course, the conviction might not have been legitimate also. It might. Sometimes, we just choose our lies and live with them.

 

I'm at somewhat of a disadvantage in that I never followed the trial. I believe I was overseas when the incident took place though.

[Zoraptor]

Since you have made such an audacious allegation, I'd like to see a legitimate source proving that the crew of the USS Vicennes were awarded medals for mistakenly downing a civilian Iranian aircraft.

The air warfare coordinator was, it's in the wiki entry, specifically "..the other [award] for his actions relating to the surface engagement with Iranian gunboats" which occurred concurrent with shooting down the airliner. Note: AIR coordinator, not surface coordinator.

 

The whole thing was due to the horrendously gung-ho attitude of Rogers, where he deliberately ignored rules of engagement, Naval standing orders and directly issued orders so as to to "get some action". Accidents happen in war and I don't actually think he deliberately shot down an airliner knowing what it was, but the negligence/ incompetence involved (eg continually misidentifying speed and altitude, when in an AEGIS cruiser?) was so gross that it should have been punished, not rewarded.

 

Note also, while the IranAir victims did get $61 million the Lockerbie victims got $2.7 billion, or roughly 45 times the amount.

 

I'd never heard any of that information, Zoraptor. I'm sceptical, but I'm always willing to look at new information.

For the circuitboard and second

For the tainted identification at the bottom of the first page.

 

IIRC one of those articles mentions an investigator saying they wouldn't even have got an indictment, let alone a conviction, without either of those bits of evidence.

[Wrath of Dagon]

Those articles state that investigations into these allegations had started, but what was the outcome of the investigations?

[Aristes]

I'd be interested to see what the Scottish appeals court ruled in regards to this. Since the whole thing went down last year, it might not have ruled yet. Until the appeals court has its say, I simply won't take second hand information and newspaper articles as the final word. Let me say, however, that I don't refuse to accept that Mehari was not guilty. He may be innocent, and I'm willing to accept if he is. The problem is we have the courts and the people. Usually, the buck stops at the courts, at which point the people can accept it or change the laws. We can't decide that we're going to throw over a ruling lightly. If we don't like a ruling, either because we are involved directly in the issue or because we feel that there is some sort of judicial infringement on legislative or executive power, then we should act. Otherwise, we have to trust the system until it shows some sign of breaking our trust and then we have to investigate the trouble and punish the folks who broke that trust or rewrite the laws that created the situation. ...Or find out that we were wrong, in which case we just wish we hadn't spent millions or even hundreds of millions of dollars investigating and holding hearings.

 

Now, the articles contain serious allegations about the criminal proceeding, and so I take them as seriously as an outsider can. I would be almost certain to take the appeals court decision no matter what it said. Should the court say that the conviction was solid, I'll believe it. Should the court rule that there was a miscarriage of justice, I'll believe it and regret that Meghari ended up in a Scottish prison for years of his life. If I were a family member, I would probably try to find out the truth and be keenly interested that the responsible parties were punished. If I were involved in the case, I would try to uphold my obligations regarding it. As an outsider, I refuse to pass judgement as long as the courts continue to work to resolve these issues. If there is some clear evidence of wrongdoing, then we should investigate it, which the Scottish court appears to be doing at any rate.

[Walsingham]

By Scott Stewart and Fred Burton

 

On Aug. 24, Scottish Justice Secretary Kenny MacAskill addressed a special session of the Scottish Parliament. The session was called so that MacAskill could explain why he had decided to release Abdel Basset Ali al-Megrahi, the former Libyan intelligence officer convicted of terrorism charges in connection with the bombing of Pan Am Flight 103, and who had been expected to spend the rest of his life in prison. MacAskill said he granted al-Megrahi a compassionate release because al-Megrahi suffers from terminal prostate cancer and is expected to live only a few months.

 

The Aug. 20 release of al-Megrahi ignited a firestorm of outrage in both the United Kingdom and the United States. FBI Director Robert Mueller released to the press contents of an uncharacteristically blunt and critical letter he had written to MacAskill in which Mueller characterized al-Megrahi

[Wrath of Dagon]

MEBO's connection to Lybian intelligence certainly throws new light on the allegations of its owner and employee.

[Zoraptor]

Aristes- Megrahi's appeal was due just prior to his release and suspended due to his ill health and eventually canceled just prior to his release, hence my initial comment that if you were looking for a conspiracy theory avoiding an embarrassing appeal which would inevitably be lost and make your country's judiciary look silly is far more likely than the Scottish National Party helping out their good buds (not) of the Labour Party.

 

Stratfor

 

That Stratfor article is, to be blunt, feeble apologia rife with argument by assertion and I'd advise the poor electrons who worked tirelessly bringing it here to sue for recompense.

 

FTR Mebo also sold circuitboards to dozens, hundreds of other entities including the German Police, as they had perfectly legitimate uses. As for that matter, did Toshiba with their radios. Irrelevant anyway, as the only evidence directly implicating mebo is from someone who now admits being a suborned perjurer (not mentioned by Stratfor) and they never bothered to actually test it for bomb residue (!!??), so evidence dismissed. The PFLP-GC had another bombmaker- not a Jordanian intel stooge- who obtained at least one of Khreesat's devices, devices which were almost diagnostic in their similarity to the one used at Lockerbie- note also that while the detonators he used were duds, the bombs weren't- a German bomb disposal expert actually died defusing one. And "He denies it, so it must be true" is one of the weakest and most feeble pieces of 'evidence' which can ever be presented, 'proving' as it does that indisputably innocent people (eg the various 'IRA' pub bombers, Guildford 7 etc) were toughened, trained terrorists/ spys when it's now known and accepted that they were effectively framed. Worse, it also relies on the old "this guy is an awesome spy, except for when he was planning on blowing up an aircraft yet used his own passport for the critical travel in his plan despite having at least one fake available", a mistake which would beggar credulity coming from a raw recruit let alone a supposedly seasoned veteran. And, as previous, Megrahi's identification as buying the clothing was indisputably tainted.

 

In summary, repeating the accusations made at trial while failing to mention- let alone even try to refute- any of the problems which have come to light since? Unconvincing, to say the least.

 

There was no doubt he was going to get his conviction quashed.

[Aristes]

"There was no doubt he was going to get his conviction quashed."

 

I don't take that for granted. Because the appeals court agreed to review the case does not mean that the appeal would succeed. *shrug* I don't mind accepting that Megrahi's appeal could have succeeded. What I'm saying is that his conviction was never overturned. There is always the possibility of pursuing justice and exonerating him posthumously.

 

Anyhow, Walsh's source is suspect but you've got the inside scoop?

 

My big question is, why is it always the governments of the western democracies that allegedy have these big conspiracies? Why is it that I never hear of other countries conspiring? lol

 

Anyhow, I don't doubt that Megrahi might not have been guilty, but the sorts of attacks on his conviction that you present are the exact same sorts of attacks people use to cast doubt on legitimate as well as questionable convictions.

 

Libya has as much at stake as Megrahi ever did. If the conviction were tainted, I have no doubt that people will continue to pursue it. If Megrahi and Libya are exonerated, I'll be happy to accept it. However, I'm not going to take the word of any member here. It will have to come down from the court. Otherwise, why believe anything? I want the information to be verified by the court. If we can't trust the courts in Scottland, then we sure as hell can't trust the regime in Libya either.

[Wrath of Dagon]

The case of the circuit board fragment is certainly complicated, and it's hard to figure out which info can be trusted. Apparently the court didn't consider any of the MEBO employees reliable witnesses. Wikipedia has a good overview of MEBO, http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Mebo with some good links, I especially found this one interesting: http://www.icce.rug.nl/~soundscapes/VOLUME...ald020101.shtml For a write up of the case, see this: http://books.google.com/books?id=BOZszeDjn...;q=&f=false search for all instances of MST-13 to get a brief outline.