Scientology contract leaks

[Deadly_Nightshade]

Yes, this is a cult. Christianity is not. End of story. Germans banned scientology? Good for them!

... do we really need to go over this again?

 

Evidently... But only because he brought it back up.

[Humodour]

When I had the phrase "Scientology is a cult" in my signature, it was removed by the Obsidian moderators. I wasn't even insulting them with that phrase, just stating a fact which I challenge any of the mods to argue against.

 

Yes, I know this happened like a year ago, but I'm still bitter about it.

Edited July 28, 2009 by Krezack

[Tigranes]

Sorry krez, can't have you insulting Great Lord Xenu.

 

Is a debate on who or what is a cult and what is not really useful?

[Deadly_Nightshade]

Is a debate on who or what is a cult and what is not really useful?

 

Nope. I think the other thread had all that needs to be said -id est that Cult has several meanings, including one that would apply to any dogmatic religion- but if he wants to continue to talk about it I don't think that there's any harm in that. Although I do wish he would continue in the other topic and not spam this one.

[Aristes]

Cult is a dirty word because we make it so. In fact, the primary definition is not pejorative in any way. However, many religious folks use it as a way to attact the legitimacy of other faiths. In that regard we have sullied a perfectly fine word and made it into something distasteful at best or even evil at the worst. However, 'cult' has the same roots as 'culture' and 'cultivate,' and it is in no way a bad thing. So I am in no way insulted by being named as part of a cult. *nods at Deadly.* I take no offense at all.

 

I've also had conversations via PM with one of the mods here who shall remain nameless. *nods at Gorth* He flat out asked me why I am Catholic and my first response is, "probably because I was raised to be Catholic." How is that for a candid response? haha ...But, I would not still be Catholic if I did not evaluate that faith and find truth in it. That's why folks have the faith they have. They find some truth in it.

 

For that reason, I don't have hostility towards Scientology, although it does seem strange to me. I've just known too many good folks with strange views that have been good friends to me. Hell, I think Mormon beliefs are strange, and yet the ones I've known best have all been good decent people. I don't want to throw stones at Scientologist for fear that stone will hit a glass wall on my side of the line.

 

However, I don't really know much about Scientology. I do think that religions should work for the benefit not only of the faithful, but of society as a whole. If Scientology is based on truly and demonstrably destructive beliefs, human sacrifice for example, then I would regretfully agree with banning it and treating it as an enemy to the state.

[Deadly_Nightshade]

Cult is a dirty word because we make it so. In fact, the primary definition is not pejorative in any way.

 

Exactly the point I was trying to make in the other thread - glad to see we agree.

 

 

I take no offense at all.

 

Nor should you.

[Azure79]

I think the whole Xenu thing was kept secret from lower tier/newer members until they were brainwashed enough to believe anything. Then critics started leaking the documents to the net and Scientology started this ruckus of trying to sue everyone who made the information available. At the same time they told members that people not ready to view the sacred documents would die horrible deaths and then made them install software on their computers that would block the showing of any site critical to Scientology.

 

Then came the infamous Tom Cruise, I will put my ethics into you, video. Scientology threatening litigation at any site hosting said video bought more critics out of the woodwork. Then there was that episode of Southpark they tried to pull from the airways, which ultimately just made everyone more aware of the whole Xenu thing.

 

So far they've just blundered into making themselves look like fools and succeeded in isolating their cult from the mainstream. Does anyone outside the 'church' really take Scientology seriously? Its unfortunate that they've been successful at stealing so much money from so many people in the years before most of their ugliness was brought to light.

Edited July 28, 2009 by Azure79

[Deadly_Nightshade]

For that reason, I don't have hostility towards Scientology, although it does seem strange to me.

 

The problem is that some of Scientology's actions are, at best, only semi-legal and, at wrost, criminal. It is also true that it was founded to fleece people, the main mythos is, in fact, based on a regected screenplay that Hubbard could not sell that was writen while he was high on painkillers and achohol. “Writing for a penny a word is ridiculous, if a man really wanted to make a million dollars, he would start a religion.” - L. Ron Hubbard

[Calax]

Ari, I think that the big thing for Scientology against it being a religion is that it's not there for the benefit of ANYONE besides those under their aegis. The catholic church and it's spin offs, heck even islam are humanitarian at heart. Scientology seems to be based around money rather than spiritual well being.

 

Scientology considers me a heathen who isn't going to go to their version of heaven because I have to take meds for mental disorders that I have (bipolar and add). They consider these life savers (on the bipolar part) to be evil and thus they'd prefer that I suicide than take the drugs because not taking the drugs will make me "stronger".

 

Add to that the fact that their "fair game" policy reguarding critics is totally not what a organization based around helping people should do. Overall they seem to be less like a religion or cult or whatever, and more like friggin stonemasons or Knights Templar

[Aristes]

How the hell is someone 'stronger' not taking their medicine for bi-polar disorder. What the hell?

[Oner]

"Endure. And in enduring, grow strong."

[Aristes]

Oh. Well. I almost joined the church of Torment, but I got married instead. It amounts to the same thing. hahahaha Ahem, the wife is come over here. Gotta go.

[Deadly_Nightshade]

Opps... Double post.

Edited July 28, 2009 by Deadly_Nightshade

[Deadly_Nightshade]

How the hell is someone 'stronger' not taking their medicine for bi-polar disorder. What the hell?

 

 

They do not belive in psychiatry and think that psychiatrists are trying to take over the world. Thus treating metal problems is aiding their foes.

 

[Oner]

By the way, I made up a new religion: Socknozaramatricism.

The point of it is that God (who "talks" to me, it's Prophet On The Tainted Soil, via television and even I can only hear it by zapping through channels and noting the first word hear. It's really hard y'know*) has concentrated every sin in a persons foot, that's why it's an ugly body part, and we have to conceal them from God's loving sight by wearing thick socks every second we live (failure to comply will result in your soul being planted into the Tainted Soil and turning into a tree*). Anyone care to join? Only 10$/month for the first year, after which you will be initiated as a Knowing One.

 

*Everyone who read these owes me 200,000 USD and a 4 year membership.

[Gorth]

Gorthology... has a nice ring to it

 

Nah, I am a Pragmatheist. I believe in doing things.

[Aristes]

Yeah, but what things, Gorth? What thing?!

[Gorth]

Yeah, but what things, Gorth? What thing?!

Things you feel needs to be done. Either out of moral obligation or whimsical indulgence

 

Edit: That is the short version. Being at work at the moment, I am a bit pressed for time for a longer explanation. Time allowing, I'll add a more indepth answer.

Edited July 28, 2009 by Gorth

[Lare Kikkeli]

I think it's awesome that L. Ron used to worship satan. Scientology started as a clumsy scam in the form of a self-help book. It's a miracle that it got as big as it is now, all other similar cults have either gone out with a blast or just faded away. They must be doing something right.

 

Sucks about Jason Lee being a member though, he's a badass.

[lord of flies]

Scientology is no more a cult than the Catholic church is (it's up to you if you believe that the Catholics are members of a cult; it's really a matter of definitions), and the Catholic Church has caused objectively more harm in the past decade. (Just a quick reminder on some things the catholic church has hurt in the past decade: anti-condom position, sexual abuse scandals, child abuse scandals)

 

The only difference between Scientology and Catholicism is that Scientology isn't heavily entrench in western society and thus does not automatically get the "benefit of the doubt" and get excused for its excesses.

 

By the way, I made up a new religion: Christianity.

The point of it is that God (who "talks" to me, also, I'm God) has killed himself, but not really, so that he can save you from your own sins (no matter how minor) if you choose to pronounce the magic words correctly (failure to comply will result in your soul being eternally damned to burn in fire forever and ever). Anyone care to join? The expected* donation is only 10% of your gross income.

 

*: You better donate mother****er.

 

How weak-willed does one really have to be in order to seriously believe in any of this ****? Talking animals, worldwide floods, towers which reach heaven... it's like something an illiterate goatherd would come up with.

[Gorth]

How weak-willed does one really have to be in order to seriously believe in any of this ****? Talking animals, worldwide floods, towers which reach heaven... it's like something an illiterate goatherd would come up with.

Not only does he talk, he is good at math too

 

 

Not quite there yet, although humanity does practise getting flooded a lot

 

 

One heaven reaching building coming up. The envy of any Babylonian!

 

 

In the end, all it takes is for a charismatic enough person to convince other people that his idea is the right one.

[Walsingham]

There is a distinction, recognised in law, between a cult and a religion. The best dividing line I know of from that distinction, is that the sacred texts of a religion should be open to all. A cult conceals its sacred texts, usually on a heirarchical basis.

 

Brainwashing is not a general air of propagating information, it's a deliberate process that is now very well laid out. like baking a cake. No church I know does it, although I have met 'christian' student organisations that try to do it.

 

Smearing mainstream religion as a cult is rude, and dangerous. It's plainly rude. The danger comes from fostering intolerance to the lifestyles of billions of human beings. But it also comes because it diminshes the appparent threat from secretive, power-seeking, manipulative cults, of which scientology is only one.

[Humodour]

I'm a secular humanist.

Edited July 28, 2009 by Krezack

[Gorth]

Yeah, but what things, Gorth? What thing?!

Things you feel needs to be done. Either out of moral obligation or whimsical indulgence

 

Edit: That is the short version. Being at work at the moment, I am a bit pressed for time for a longer explanation. Time allowing, I'll add a more indepth answer.

A slightly longer answer...

 

Introduction:

 

For reasons I really don't get, I see humanity as so limited that it scary. What is worse is, it is self imposed limitations. We always try to "fit" in ideals created by a few individuals. We are slaves to ideologies, fashion, cultural fads, belief systems, all kinds of human made value systems. A few "visionaries" sometimes manage to move a tent pole here or budge the general opinion a bit here, but overall, we tend to group think. Group think in Gorths world means that the IQ of the group is the reciprocal of the number of members of the group.

 

Middle part:

 

Narrowmindedness is the greatest enemy of humanity. That is why I take great pleasure in poking fun at dogma and doctrine alike (I do try to be inoffensive about it), just as I in life outside the internet try to kick some sense into people and encourage independant rather than conditioned thinking. We we really should be better than Ivan Pavlovs dogs. Limited thinking is one of the few things that gets me really agitated (and I normally control my emotions better than Mr. Spock). Humanity could be so great if we tore down the walls in our minds and worked on a betterment of us all as a whole. Yeah, that would be "Gorthopia"

 

Conclusion part:

 

And what has that to do with doing "things" I hear you say? I believe that to be a more complete person and better expand your thinking, you need to experience life in all its facets. In order to see beyong your current visual range, you need to move to the next hill to get a better view. People need to experience sorrows and joys, failures and successe, gains and losses to expand their horizons. Scholarly studies only gives you enough to pass the theoretical test of life, to pass the practical test, you need to go out their get a bloody nose. Sometimes the experiences are pleasant, sometimes hurtful, all them adds to a greater understanding of what it means to be human. I am not really sure that I need to tell you in particular that, since I suspect you have a pretty good idea already.

 

Next up on Gorths to-do list is to buy a motor cycle (already started looking around for one) and come spring, I shall ride towards the sunset, being the lone horseman of the apocalypse

[Humodour]

Yeah, but what things, Gorth? What thing?!

Things you feel needs to be done. Either out of moral obligation or whimsical indulgence

 

Edit: That is the short version. Being at work at the moment, I am a bit pressed for time for a longer explanation. Time allowing, I'll add a more indepth answer.

A slightly longer answer...

 

Introduction:

 

For reasons I really don't get, I see humanity as so limited that it scary. What is worse is, it is self imposed limitations. We always try to "fit" in ideals created by a few individuals. We are slaves to ideologies, fashion, cultural fads, belief systems, all kinds of human made value systems. A few "visionaries" sometimes manage to move a tent pole here or budge the general opinion a bit here, but overall, we tend to group think. Group think in Gorths world means that the IQ of the group is the reciprocal of the number of members of the group.

 

Middle part:

 

Narrowmindedness is the greatest enemy of humanity. That is why I take great pleasure in poking fun at dogma and doctrine alike (I do try to be inoffensive about it), just as I in life outside the internet try to kick some sense into people and encourage independant rather than conditioned thinking. We we really should be better than Ivan Pavlovs dogs. Limited thinking is one of the few things that gets me really agitated (and I normally control my emotions better than Mr. Spock). Humanity could be so great if we tore down the walls in our minds and worked on a betterment of us all as a whole. Yeah, that would be "Gorthopia"

 

Conclusion part:

 

And what has that to do with doing "things" I hear you say? I believe that to be a more complete person and better expand your thinking, you need to experience life in all its facets. In order to see beyong your current visual range, you need to move to the next hill to get a better view. People need to experience sorrows and joys, failures and successe, gains and losses to expand their horizons. Scholarly studies only gives you enough to pass the theoretical test of life, to pass the practical test, you need to go out their get a bloody nose. Sometimes the experiences are pleasant, sometimes hurtful, all them adds to a greater understanding of what it means to be human. I am not really sure that I need to tell you in particular that, since I suspect you have a pretty good idea already.

 

Next up on Gorths to-do list is to buy a motor cycle (already started looking around for one) and come spring, I shall ride towards the sunset, being the lone horseman of the apocalypse

 

My dad could beat up your dad.