Taipei, Taiwan

[Nigel]

Please notice that the games you metioned all took place almost exclusively in the towns. They had a lot of time and space to develop each towns feel and build upon it, because the play would be scruitnizing it more. from what I understand about AP you'll be finding yourself in MANY cities. Each with a different feel, style, and personality. To fully convey each in any terms other than "generic asian/european/american east/american west" feels would probably cause the amount of time on production to rise quite significantly because of the extra research they have to put in to figure out each and every single city.

Hey, they're the developers, they chose the problem set. If that's what it takes to fully convey the experience of being in those cities, they had better damn well do it or the game will fail to deliver the goods. Remember, by making an action espionage RPG they're not just competing against other RPGs or even other action games, but against all media that has a spy theme. That means players will be coming to Alpha Protocol with knowledge of the Bourne, Bond and whatever other spy themed movies and games they've experienced. One thing that is crucial to the spy genre is the travelogue aspect, players will be looking to experience exotic locales. Obsidian shouldn't call a location Taipei if they can't make it feel like Taipei. If they can't convey the experience of being in so many different locations effectively, then they shouldn't be making the game.

[alanschu]

The thing is, if I get the impression that Taipei is an Asian city (and different from the other places), it'll probably be good enough for me.

 

It probably will be for a lot of people.

 

 

 

In many of these spy movies there's really no way for me to validate that a destination is really a destination. They could take plenty of places and tell me it's Munich or whatever, and I'll believe them.

Edited July 6, 2009 by alanschu

[Nigel]

That's a big 'if', and precisely what I'm talking about. If they don't get the details right, it won't even feel like an "Asian" city, let alone Taipei. It'll just look like a level with Chinese signs (i.e. Deus Ex). Perhaps that's enough for some people, but I don't think that is what Obsidian is going for. I'm not expecting or necessarily interested in a 100% faithful representation of any of the locations, just something good enough to feel like the intended locations within the scope of the game. Easier said than done, but it has been done, and done exceptionally well, by many developers. Will Obsidian be counted among them?

Edited July 6, 2009 by Nigel

[mkreku]

I'm not expecting or necessarily interested in a 100% faithful representation of any of the locations...

That depends. I bought STALKER on the promise that they had faithfully recreated about 60% of the Chernobyl zone and surrounding villages. Unfortunately the game was cut into levels before release but some of it remained, like Pripyat..

 

I'm always impressed when developers have managed to recreate places I've been to and am able to recognize in a game. Instant gratifying feeling and a plus for the game.

[213374U]

it has been done, and done exceptionally well, by many developers.

Err... has it? Can you give a few examples so we know what you're referring to specifically, and what standards are you measuring against?

[Syraxis]

I'm always impressed when developers have managed to recreate places I've been to and am able to recognize in a game.

 

You've been inside the zone? Do tell of your experience!

[Oner]

That's a big 'if', and precisely what I'm talking about. If they don't get the details right, it won't even feel like an "Asian" city, let alone Taipei. It'll just look like a level with Chinese signs (i.e. Deus Ex).

It felt asian to me. Futuro-asian, but asian.

 

it has been done, and done exceptionally well, by many developers.

Err... has it? Can you give a few examples so we know what you're referring to specifically, and what standards are you measuring against?

GTA games for instance. Or so I heard.

[alanschu]

That's a big 'if', and precisely what I'm talking about. If they don't get the details right, it won't even feel like an "Asian" city, let alone Taipei. It'll just look like a level with Chinese signs (i.e. Deus Ex). Perhaps that's enough for some people, but I don't think that is what Obsidian is going for. I'm not expecting or necessarily interested in a 100% faithful representation of any of the locations, just something good enough to feel like the intended locations within the scope of the game. Easier said than done, but it has been done, and done exceptionally well, by many developers. Will Obsidian be counted among them?

 

 

Why all the demanding it to be representative of Taipei when it seems you're concerned as to whether or not it looks like an Asian city?

 

I'm confused as to what it is exactly that you're wanting.

 

 

Now you're starting to put words in Obsidian's mouth about what you think there intent is, and so forth.

 

 

 

To use mkreku's example though, I know nothing about what Chernobyl looks like, so the fact it was accurate meant little. Though seeing the Washington landmarks in Fallout 3 was indeed a plus.

[Zoma]

GTA games for instance. Or so I heard.

 

And Prototype. They recreate the entire new york with google map. lol.

[WILL THE ALMIGHTY]

GTA games for instance. Or so I heard.

 

And Prototype. They recreate the entire new york with google map. lol.

I don't really see what's wrong with that. It's actually pretty awesome.

[213374U]

So, um, we want huge, mostly empty maps so we can roam freely doing nothing much? Isn't this supposed to be a story-driven RPG?

[Oner]

So, um, we want huge, mostly empty maps so we can roam freely doing nothing much? Isn't this supposed to be a story-driven RPG?

Where did this question come from?

[Aristes]

I think the point is, google map for Alpha Protocol sounds pretty stupid. Sorry, my sympathies only extend so far. If we've got a very narrow slice of territory in Taipei, it's stupid to do anything more than give it an authentic Asian feel, even if it isn't authentic.

 

Authentic locations only mean something if

 

1. The player knows the area well enough to tell the difference

 

and

 

2. cares.

 

If a sufficient number of people don't care, then it's not worth it to research and implement. I mean, sure, I would appreciate it, but I also know that there are several areas of Las Vegas that, seen in isolation, would not look like the 'real' Las Vegas to most players. Half of them would complain that the locations don't look 'realistic' for Las Vegas. What would it then benefit the design team to implement that sort of level design?

[213374U]

So, um, we want huge, mostly empty maps so we can roam freely doing nothing much? Isn't this supposed to be a story-driven RPG?

Where did this question come from?

It came from my sick, twisted and sleep-deprived mind, if you must know.

 

I guess I should have been more clear and asked which RPGs was he comparing against. But the examples folks have put forth so far aren't RPGs, but games where free-roaming is, if not the central force behind the game, at least a very important part.

 

How about I go asking around the Paradox boards for characters and writing in the level of MotB? Do you think that's sensible?

 

edit: Argh, ninja'd!

Edited July 7, 2009 by 213374U

[Oner]

So, um, we want huge, mostly empty maps so we can roam freely doing nothing much? Isn't this supposed to be a story-driven RPG?

Where did this question come from?

It came from my sick, twisted and sleep-deprived mind, if you must know.

 

I guess I should have been more clear and asked which RPGs was he comparing against. But the examples folks have put forth so far aren't RPGs, but games where free-roaming is, if not the central force behind the game, at least a very important part.

 

How about I go asking around the Paradox boards for characters and writing in the level of MotB? Do you think that's sensible?

 

edit: Argh, ninja'd!

Well, you asked which games had cities that looked/felt like the real ones, we just answered.

[Enoch]

it has been done, and done exceptionally well, by many developers.

Err... has it? Can you give a few examples so we know what you're referring to specifically, and what standards are you measuring against?

There were parts of Fallout 3 that really stood out to this DC-area resident. The Metro stations, the Capitol, Dupont Circle, and the National Archives were particularly impressive. I was on the lookout for ghouls on my commute for weeks.

 

Edit: Just noticed that alaschu pre-empted this particular comment.

Edited July 7, 2009 by Enoch

[Aristes]

it has been done, and done exceptionally well, by many developers.

Err... has it? Can you give a few examples so we know what you're referring to specifically, and what standards are you measuring against?

There were parts of Fallout 3 that really stood out to this DC-area resident. The Metro stations, the Capitol, Dupont Circle, and the National Archives were particularly impressive. I was on the lookout for ghouls on my commute for weeks.

That's a good example, and what I'd like to see for FO:NV, but if there really is just one mansion for the Taipei run, it doesn't make sense. There's a good chance that folks would complain that it looked like any western location. Sometimes realistic doesn't look authentic to folks. Now, if it took place in a large portion of the city, they could really try to capture the feel for the player, but I don't think it's worth the risk on such a small scale, you know? I'm not unsympathetic, just sceptical.

[213374U]

it has been done, and done exceptionally well, by many developers.

Err... has it? Can you give a few examples so we know what you're referring to specifically, and what standards are you measuring against?

There were parts of Fallout 3 that really stood out to this DC-area resident. The Metro stations, the Capitol, Dupont Circle, and the National Archives were particularly impressive. I was on the lookout for ghouls on my commute for weeks.

 

Edit: Just noticed that alaschu pre-empted this particular comment.

Fair enough. Never been to DC myself, so it's good to hear an informed opinion.

[Nigel]

Why all the demanding it to be representative of Taipei when it seems you're concerned as to whether or not it looks like an Asian city?

 

I'm confused as to what it is exactly that you're wanting.

 

 

Now you're starting to put words in Obsidian's mouth about what you think there intent is, and so forth.

 

 

 

To use mkreku's example though, I know nothing about what Chernobyl looks like, so the fact it was accurate meant little. Though seeing the Washington landmarks in Fallout 3 was indeed a plus.

As I understand it, Alpha Protocol is supposed to be an espionage RPG set in real locations of the modern world. In the developer diary they mention taking players to places like Taipei. I don't think it's unreasonable to infer that accuracy is important to Obsidian for this title. The bar for representing real world locations has been set for me by the efforts of developers like Bethesda (Fallout 3), Bizarre Creations (PGR2, 3, 4), Rockstar North (GTA series) and Remedy (Max Paynes). Bizarre in particular faithfully recreated three Asian cities in PGR4 (Shanghai, Macau and Tokyo) and managed to make each one feel very distinct.

 

For Alpha Protocol, since they mentioned Taipei, and I've spent some time there, I really would like the game to feel specifically like Taipei as opposed to other Asian cities. That would require them to actually visit Taipei and take reference photos etc etc to capture the feel of that city. That doesn't mean that they should copy actual streets, buildings and satellite photos to make the levels. They should be using this reference material however to create a space that will remind people who have been to Taipei of the city and simply feel "foreign" to people who haven't been there. I'm arguing that if they don't go the extra mile to get that level of detail on this generation of hardware, the city won't even feel "Asian" to people who haven't been to Taipei. Sure for some people this won't matter much, but for the people it does matter to this will diminish the experience. Consider the guns in the game. I don't really care about guns, but if Obsidian takes the effort to make the guns as accurate as possible, people who are into guns will appreciate that detail and people who don't will just appreciate the heightened realism brought to the game. For an espionage game locations are one of the things that just have to be right.

[RevolverXT]

Thank you Nigel, that is what I am talking about. Someone mentioned something about the hong kong area is Deus Ex and how it was good enough for them, ok, I LOVE Dues EX, but for those of you who have NEVER been to Asia, that portrayal of Hong Kong was almost insulting. It work for the game, sure. But man, it sure does not help American players realize that Asia is not a third world place. Americans don't experience this, but imagine, say being somewhere in Europe, and seeing America being portrayed as if it stayed in the 1910 and everyone is a redneck all over the entertainment media. You KNOW better, but because of the widespread stereotypical image that are widely excepted in Europe, they think that is what the U.S. is like. (this is just an example) It is a ****ty feeling man!

[213374U]

I don't see where the sense of wounded national pride comes from. In DX, HK may not be portrayed very favourably, but neither are NYC or Paris, for that matter. And I have never seen complaints about this, as people understand that the portions of the cities presented are not necessarily representative of the state of affairs of those locales as a whole. They are merely the parts of those cities that the developers considered they needed to use in their story... and then they gave everything a bit of a "down" feel to account for the ongoing world crisis of the story.

 

So please, let's keep the chauvinism to a minimum. This is a spy RPG we are talking about, not a tourism slideshow.

 

edit: it just occured to me that you may be referring to the same tired Asian stereotypes we always see applied to characters. If so, yeah. That needs to go.

Edited July 7, 2009 by 213374U

[Nigel]

So please, let's keep the chauvinism to a minimum. This is a spy RPG we are talking about, not a tourism slideshow.

That's a bit like saying Gran Turismo is a racing game not a car catalog, though I agree that chauvinism isn't necessary. A spy RPG on one level *is* a tourism slide show. I can't think of a recent spy game in which being in exotic locations was not part of the game. Splinter Cell, Metal Gear Solid, No One Lives Forever, Syphon Filter etc were all about exotic locales.

 

As far as DX is concerned, you probably didn't see complaints about its locales because it was never presented as being a modern day real world game. Obisidian has made that claim, and thus must perform to a higher standard. I took a look at the hd developer's diary on Game Trailers and what was shown there looks pretty disappointing. I'm afraid to see what they did to Rome! They're definitely going for more of a cartoonish Tomb Raider feel than something moody and more authentic feeling like Max Payne. That's fine, I just wish they would stop touting it as a "realistic" RPG.

[Zoma]

"Realism" constitutes more than just the accuracy depiction of the place, but the setting as its entirety.

 

Don't think Obsidian ever says they want to make a realistic RPG though. Not with all of the magical powers MT is capable of wielding for one. I remembered Obsidian only saying that thy wanted to make an RPG based on a realistic setting. In addition, it is true that AP once tried to achieve a Syrian setting, but changed gradually to evolve what it seemed to be a Metal Gear/Kill Bill inspired setting and characters.

 

As for the accuracy of the locales, even movies make shootings in an entire different city or even country in comparison to the script in order to save costs. I try to provide Obsidian's perspective though why they choose over fictional accuracy in comparison to actual one.

 

 

-Create a recognisable, impactful stage upon the starting of level in comparisons with other levels. Furthermore as you said that if the place is truly the same looking as Japan, it would be difficult for the players to differentiate between the two cities if Japan's level is included either in the game or in its sequel. Regardless, the level shown in the video may simply be located within someone's manor, so its too soon to judge about it yet.

 

-Creater freedom in creating the level to accomodate the player's tactical needs.

 

 

My 2 cents.

[alanschu]

Thank you Nigel, that is what I am talking about. Someone mentioned something about the hong kong area is Deus Ex and how it was good enough for them, ok, I LOVE Dues EX, but for those of you who have NEVER been to Asia, that portrayal of Hong Kong was almost insulting. It work for the game, sure. But man, it sure does not help American players realize that Asia is not a third world place. Americans don't experience this, but imagine, say being somewhere in Europe, and seeing America being portrayed as if it stayed in the 1910 and everyone is a redneck all over the entertainment media. You KNOW better, but because of the widespread stereotypical image that are widely excepted in Europe, they think that is what the U.S. is like. (this is just an example) It is a ****ty feeling man!

 

 

I doubt anyone is looking at the Hong Kong level in Deus Ex, a game set in the future where almost every conspiracy theory turns out to be true, and thinking "Wow, Hong Kong is really a third world place!

 

Heck, New York and Paris felt like a Third World places in Deus Ex if that's the definition of a Third World place.

 

 

I can understand the concerns you and Nigel have, but given it didn't affect me in Deus Ex (pretty much my favourite game of all time), I doubt it will affect me much in Alpha Protocol. That sort of stuff is nice, but a good game is a good game and the stuff that makes the game good is of utmost importance to me.

 

 

Furthermore, I'm pretty sure that even if they don't get the subtleties of Taipei to make it seem like Taipei, they can still make the city seem Asian. Nigel seemed to be implying that if they can't make it seem like Taipei, then they can't even make it seem like an Asian city.

 

 

I can't think of a recent spy game in which being in exotic locations was not part of the game. Splinter Cell, Metal Gear Solid, No One Lives Forever, Syphon Filter etc were all about exotic locales.

 

But were any of those games really an accurate representation of the cities that were depicted. The Japan level in Splinter Cell: Chaos Theory seemed like a standard Japanese level to me.

 

You might get a skyline that you recognize, or perhaps a famous building like LAX (which I don't even know if it is accurately depicted in Pandora Tomorrow), but outside of famous landmarks a lot of that work is really wasted.

 

If they can fake entire cities in movies, I doubt it'll be that big of a deal in a video game.

 

 

I think you're overstating how realistic Obsidian was claiming this game would be.

[Aristes]

And overthinking exactly how realistic we want it to be. Sure, some grognard might want total fidelity, but I want a fun game. They apparently took it a direction with a little more camp, but I think that was good.