Political Cartoons

[Aristes]

No, I think you're right. The specifics are always a bitch and, frankly, anyone can cherry pick counter examples to anything you say. Especially clever people. Society clearly conditions our brains. I don't think that's universally bad, but I do think it's imperative to try to look at things from different angles. yeah, you don't want a mind so open it lacks any discipline, but you don't want society to cram you into a box either.

[Blarghagh]

Funny thing, really, I was reading The UK Times 'Top 10 Historically Innacurate Movies of all time' and Mister Gibson directed three of them (Braveheart, Apocalypto and The Patriot)

The Patriot was directed by that german guy who also made Godzilla and Independence Day.

[Pidesco]

Roland Emmerich

[213374U]

I don't think that's universally bad

I think it's horrible. It's the closest we have come to functional mind control. We are constantly bombarded with opinions that tell us who our heroes have to be, what we are to think, what we have to fear, what's the road to happiness, who are the good guys and the bad guys... etc. Throw in video games (or any other form of mental anesthesia), and we might as well dump our brains in the trash can. And it takes a conscious, sustained and focused effort on the individual's part to fight this.

[Walsingham]

I don't think that's universally bad

I think it's horrible. It's the closest we have come to functional mind control. We are constantly bombarded with opinions that tell us who our heroes have to be, what we are to think, what we have to fear, what's the road to happiness, who are the good guys and the bad guys... etc. Throw in video games (or any other form of mental anesthesia), and we might as well dump our brains in the trash can. And it takes a conscious, sustained and focused effort on the individual's part to fight this.

 

What if YOU are part of that machine, eh?

[213374U]

I'm part, alright. I'm not out there fighting the good fight with LoF, after all.

[Aristes]

So we should repudiate all aspects of society? The mind control part of society comes after the promise of safety and stability. A world without society might sound cool, but that's probably going to be you in the saber tooth's stomach.

[Calax]

So we should repudiate all aspects of society? The mind control part of society comes after the promise of safety and stability. A world without society might sound cool, but that's probably going to be you in the saber tooth's stomach.

well, if they're going off of what I said, I don't know what you'd do, you can't repudiate all of society because then you'd just end up in jail for breaking some law and you wouldn't have any major morals.

[alanschu]

Apocalypto. It is a movie about how an American Indian is going to be sacrificed, but at the end he is saved by the arrival of the Spanish.

 

HAHAHAHAHAHAHA

[Darth InSidious]

So we should repudiate all aspects of society? The mind control part of society comes after the promise of safety and stability. A world without society might sound cool, but that's probably going to be you in the saber tooth's stomach.

well, if they're going off of what I said, I don't know what you'd do, you can't repudiate all of society because then you'd just end up in jail for breaking some law and you wouldn't have any major morals.

Even assuming you could disband a society, it'd reform eventually. Humans form hierarchies naturally.

[Gorgon]

look it's Confucius.

 

I think it's more a situation where once hierarchy and tradition has been established they tend to be hard to do away with, as in they are effective in controlling our lives, not that we naturally lean towards forming them.

[Aristes]

I disagree. I think we naturally form hierarchy's then we struggle to do away with them and then we form them again. Individually, I will agree with you. However, collectively we form them every stinking time. Even groups that get together loosely in opposition to formal hierarchies end up forming them. They are pervasive throughout our entire history. Humans create society because of the benefits and societies form hierarchies. The only real question is whether the hierarchy will be rigid or loose and that really depends on a lot of factors. Since the individuals within society tend to struggle against the rigidity of the hierarchy, I'm sure they'll push out the boundaries. However, at some point, the structure become threatened and pushes to re-assert itself. If the formal hierarchy is destroyed, then another takes it's place. It's the whole struggle between the individual and society. There must be volumes dedicated to this stuff, but I haven't actually read it. I have, however, cracked a history book or two and I simply cannot escape from this logic. It's not exactly confucian, since he was concerned with establishing a specific hierarchy whereas I simply see some form of hiearchy as inevitable.

[Gorgon]

Well he also wrote that if a system gets too oppressive and performs its role poorly, it is natural that it be overthrown and replaced with one that functions. Note of course that we are merely talking about removing a useless king and his inner circle, not changing the system itself.

 

As one might expect there are several different schools of thought, but Confucius is not incompatible with rebellion, if that leads to a more 'natural' state.

Edited August 12, 2009 by Gorgon

[Aristes]

To be honest, I don't really know all that much about Confucius. I mean, I have the rudimentary sort of information one receives for an undergrad degree, but that's about it. I'm not much of a Chinese history buff, and the period of Japanese history that interested me the most doesn't really focus on Confucius. If I'd pursued more Asian history, even so far as to India or Japan, I'd undoubtedly have to learn more. From what I understand of him, though, he had some quite good ideas. That's probably why he still has so much influence today even though he's been dead for thousands of years.

 

... I don't, however, see hierarchies as good in and of themselves. They are simply attendant on the good things. I mean, if individualism were entirely bad, then we could simply call it that and embrace hierarchies. We need freedom and we need structure, which is true for all societies. Even the most desperate despot cannot control every single aspect of the individual and there is no one so free that he can live in complete chaos. After all, if nothing else, we must satisfy the basic needs of our existence and we must therefore establish sufficient order to secure food and shelter and sleep and protection.

 

See, this is why I can't hate lord of flies. Yeah, he's over board and off the deep end and whatnot, but I've enjoyed several conversations in this thread and it wouldn't even be here without the lord.

[Humodour]

Confucius say "man who stand on toilet is high on pot".

Edited August 13, 2009 by Krezack