Germany bans violent games

[Mamoulian War]

Killing another person is NEVER ok!!!

 

Glorifying soldiers to promote killing is same bull**** like glorifying Bundy or Mason...

 

I think this way too. This don't mean I wouldn't defend myself or my family but it'd still be wrong. Every soldier has a choice not to kill but in some cases it might cost their own life. Takes a lot of guts stand in front of the firing squad, just because you refused to kill someone. Self-sacrifice is interesting thing - games should explore that idea bit more.

 

About this german censorship law. If you'd ask me about this 20 or even 10 years ago, I would have been strongly against it but now I'm not so sure. Minors playing all kind of violent games and surfing whatever recent *shock* website do make me bit nervous. Parents or teachers rarely have any idea or means to stop it. I'd damn glad there weren't internet or camera phones back in my youth.

 

While i agree with you, i absolutely disagree with censorship laws like that... The parents should be responsible for their children behaviour alone... I am 30 years old.. I played Wolfenstein when i was 12, Doom and Mortal Kombat when I was 14 and i played them 24/7... Up to this day i have never had the idea to even hit someone, neither kill anyone, or even hit my dog... I had few friends who played Mortal Kombat 2 even at younger age... And none of them became bully, none of them is hitting their girlfriends, none of them are beating their animals... Because our parents have teach us what is wrong and what is right...

[Morgoth]

Killing another person is NEVER ok!!!

 

Glorifying soldiers to promote killing is same bull**** like glorifying Bundy or Mason...

 

I think this way too. This don't mean I wouldn't defend myself or my family but it'd still be wrong. Every soldier has a choice not to kill but in some cases it might cost their own life. Takes a lot of guts stand in front of the firing squad, just because you refused to kill someone. Self-sacrifice is interesting thing - games should explore that idea bit more.

 

About this german censorship law. If you'd ask me about this 20 or even 10 years ago, I would have been strongly against it but now I'm not so sure. Minors playing all kind of violent games and surfing whatever recent *shock* website do make me bit nervous. Parents or teachers rarely have any idea or means to stop it. I'd damn glad there weren't internet or camera phones back in my youth.

 

While i agree with you, i absolutely disagree with censorship laws like that... The parents should be responsible for their children behaviour alone... I am 30 years old.. I played Wolfenstein when i was 12, Doom and Mortal Kombat when I was 14 and i played them 24/7... Up to this day i have never had the idea to even hit someone, neither kill anyone, or even hit my dog... I had few friends who played Mortal Kombat 2 even at younger age... And none of them became bully, none of them is hitting their girlfriends, none of them are beating their animals... Because our parents have teach us what is wrong and what is right...

You also know that these old games aren't really very violent, in a senze that they're just a bunch of ugly pixels? Modern games are much more emotionally involved, with all the agressive PR campaigns, the swearing, the realism, the pop culture references, and the

[Mamoulian War]

Killing another person is NEVER ok!!!

 

Glorifying soldiers to promote killing is same bull**** like glorifying Bundy or Mason...

 

I think this way too. This don't mean I wouldn't defend myself or my family but it'd still be wrong. Every soldier has a choice not to kill but in some cases it might cost their own life. Takes a lot of guts stand in front of the firing squad, just because you refused to kill someone. Self-sacrifice is interesting thing - games should explore that idea bit more.

 

About this german censorship law. If you'd ask me about this 20 or even 10 years ago, I would have been strongly against it but now I'm not so sure. Minors playing all kind of violent games and surfing whatever recent *shock* website do make me bit nervous. Parents or teachers rarely have any idea or means to stop it. I'd damn glad there weren't internet or camera phones back in my youth.

 

While i agree with you, i absolutely disagree with censorship laws like that... The parents should be responsible for their children behaviour alone... I am 30 years old.. I played Wolfenstein when i was 12, Doom and Mortal Kombat when I was 14 and i played them 24/7... Up to this day i have never had the idea to even hit someone, neither kill anyone, or even hit my dog... I had few friends who played Mortal Kombat 2 even at younger age... And none of them became bully, none of them is hitting their girlfriends, none of them are beating their animals... Because our parents have teach us what is wrong and what is right...

You also know that these old games aren't really very violent, in a senze that they're just a bunch of ugly pixels? Modern games are much more emotionally involved, with all the agressive PR campaigns, the swearing, the realism, the pop culture references, and the

Edited June 7, 2009 by Mamoulian War

[Morgoth]

Well then it's good that there is jouth-protection from the German USK. Because parents these days like taks who let their 5 year old play Fallout 3 obviously are already so emotioanlly numb that they just don't care what their kids play. If parents fail, the law must come in, unfortunately.

[Mamoulian War]

If parent fails at educating their children, the law does not help... If you ban making of/selling games in your country, young children without parental guidance will just download the games for free from pirates... And you can bet, that because of the teenage mentality, they will have access to much more of that stuff after the ban... Because nowadays everything what is forbidden to them by parents or law is coolest thing in the world, and bragging about it in public = more rl-peen...

 

As an example, before 1989 we had banned all Schwarzenegger, Stallone, Star Wars, Porn and Alien movies as most of the horror movies in my country (thanks to the communists) but the movies could be found everywhere... I remember how we had fun at age of 9-10 running around different friends and watching Schwarzenegger and horror movies all day long, because it was so cool...

Edited June 7, 2009 by Mamoulian War

[lord of flies]

There's a difference between:

 

1) Rapelay is okay

2) Rapelay should be protected by free-speech laws

 

Rape is not okay, so a game built around raping women is not okay. Kidnapping women and turning them into sex slaves is not okay, so a game built around kidnapping women and turning them into sex slaves is not okay.

Wrong. I don't know what kind of dumb moral system you're building this around, but I'm a utilitarian, so let's go with that.

 

Rapelay hurts, literally, no one. It does not hurt the player. It does not hurt any women. It does not hurt the women in the game, because they are not real. They cannot be hurt. They do not feel pain, or pleasure, or anything. They are fictional, just like the people you blow up in Postal, just like the people you shoot in Mass Effect, just like the people you cut up in Knights of the Old Republic

 

PS: All soldiers, save those who sign up during a defensive war, are murderers. They knowingly, willingly signed themselves up to kill people, and not in self-defense or defense of another. They chose to side with military unilateralism and engage in an activity that inevitably leads to starvation, rape and death amongst the populace.

[Morgoth]

If parent fails at educating their children, the law does not help... If you ban making of/selling games in your country, young children without parental guidance will just download the games for free from pirates... And you can bet, that because of the teenage mentality, they will have access to much more of that stuff after the ban... Because nowadays everything what is forbidden to them by parents or law is coolest thing in the world, and bragging about it in public = more rl-peen...

Yeah, probably, but just allowing an 10 year old buying Condemned: Criminal Origins won't solve that problem either.

 

Education? How, if most parents even don't care about this medium?

 

I guess first devs/publishers have to grow up and try to make games that boast through creativity and imagination, rather than lust and blood and gore and swearing. Then maybe, parents will see video games through a different eye. Or not.

[Mamoulian War]

Yeah, probably, but just allowing an 10 year old buying Condemned: Criminal Origins won't solve that problem either.

 

If it has been marked by PEGI as 18+ or by ESRB as M only, it is idiocy of the parent to buy his 10 years olds the game and not the idiocy of the developer of the game...

Edited June 7, 2009 by Mamoulian War

[Gorgon]

I suppose you might say that because of the Nazi ban Germany has become too accustomed to banning things for its own good.

[Morgoth]

Yeah, probably, but just allowing an 10 year old buying Condemned: Criminal Origins won't solve that problem either.

 

If it has been marked by PEGI as 18+ or by ESRB as M only, it is idiocy of the parent to buy his 10 years olds the game and not the idiocy of the developer of the game...

I meant that the seller should be convicted for it.

[Cycloneman]

I suppose you might say that because of the Nazi ban Germany has become too accustomed to banning things for its own good.

First they came for the Nazis, and I did not speak up because I was not a Nazi...

[Mamoulian War]

Yeah, probably, but just allowing an 10 year old buying Condemned: Criminal Origins won't solve that problem either.

 

If it has been marked by PEGI as 18+ or by ESRB as M only, it is idiocy of the parent to buy his 10 years olds the game and not the idiocy of the developer of the game...

I meant that the seller should be convicted for it.

 

Then the clear idiot is the seller...

 

Nazi ban in Germany did not stop many people in Germany to worship Hitler. Communism ban in Russia did not stop many people in Russia to worship Stalin... Banning all drugs did not stop abusing of drugs anywhere... If parents do not educate their children enough, they will always have access to Hitler, Stalin, Cocaine etc... same goes with computer games...

 

EDIT: The right ban should be to not sell PEGI 18+/ESRB M only to kids... Punnishable by high financial penalties to sellers...

Edited June 7, 2009 by Mamoulian War

[Purkake]

Whether you think children should be allowed to play violent games or not, does this justify outright banning of all those games and their production?

 

We don't ban alcohol or cigarettes even though they are also illegal for under age people. This is quite an overreaction.

 

Sure kids can get 18+ rated games just as they can get alcohol, cigarettes and porn. That's where they parents come in, not the state.

 

EDIT: I agree that killing someone is never ok, it can be justified(self defense etc.), but that doesn't make it ok.

Edited June 7, 2009 by Purkake

[Kjarista]

And as we all know meta-studies are generally rubbish.

Unless you are very careful in your selection of studies to ensure that only high quality studies are included (which usually is not the case since most people making meta studies want as much data in there as possible). For example most meta-studies of acupuncture are deeply flawed by including a large number of chinese studies (where most acupuncture research happens, and this is mostly bad research). Now I dont have enough information about video game studies to draw the same conclusion as for acupuncture but its just something to keep in mind.

 

Instead of meta-studies it is generally better to take a look at the results from the best performed and controlled studies with the largest sample sizes and see if there still is any effect to speak of.

 

*edit*

Just to be clear, I just wanted to add that I think what you are saying might very well be true, I am only arguing against meta-studies.

 

Not so much. Rigorous statistical analysis is hardly rubbish. CAns such studies be flawed? Of course. However, taht doesn't eman that EVERY study is flawed.

 

In this case, the metastudies reflect the results of the majority of the studies. Again, feel free to google. I'd post links, but I don't want to argue with people the accuracy of specific links.

[Oner]

I apologize if it was posted already, but this seems relevant to the topic.

[mrmud]

I guess first devs/publishers have to grow up and try to make games that boast through creativity and imagination, rather than lust and blood and gore and swearing. Then maybe, parents will see video games through a different eye. Or not.

 

Hearing filthy words will surely make murderers out of the children!

[mrmud]

EDIT: I agree that killing someone is never ok, it can be justified(self defense etc.), but that doesn't make it ok.

The difference being?

Saying its never ok to kill is naive. Given the right (or wrong) circumstances, killing can be a moral obligation.

[mrmud]

Not so much. Rigorous statistical analysis is hardly rubbish. CAns such studies be flawed? Of course. However, taht doesn't eman that EVERY study is flawed.

 

In this case, the metastudies reflect the results of the majority of the studies. Again, feel free to google. I'd post links, but I don't want to argue with people the accuracy of specific links.

 

My point is that the weakness of the meta-studies is that they allow the poorly conducted studies to affect the results (hence why you have meta studies showing efficacy of acupuncture treatments on all kinds of illnesses. But if you only consider the well thought out, double blinded studies then the effect goes away).

Instead one should look at the methodology of the studies and select the ones that are the best. Granted one could do a meta study of just those, the very best, studies. But like I said in my previous post, most scientists seem to prefer large amounts of data over correct data.

 

And once again I know next to nothing about the studies you are refering to so there is no reason to make any links. I am merely debating the merit of meta-studies.

Edited June 7, 2009 by mrmud

[Purkake]

EDIT: I agree that killing someone is never ok, it can be justified(self defense etc.), but that doesn't make it ok.

The difference being?

Saying its never ok to kill is naive. Given the right (or wrong) circumstances, killing can be a moral obligation.

 

I'm saying that it shouldn't be taken lightly and that you are ending another human being's life permanently. I may be forced to do it(in the army etc.), but I won't feel good about it and wouldn't do it if I didn't have to. My point is that you should feel bad for doing it, even if it was necessary.

[Morgoth]

I guess first devs/publishers have to grow up and try to make games that boast through creativity and imagination, rather than lust and blood and gore and swearing. Then maybe, parents will see video games through a different eye. Or not.

 

Hearing filthy words will surely make murderers out of the children!

No, but it's still in many cases not necessary to use overextended swearing.

[Hassat Hunter]

Meh, I bought GTA3 in the stores when I was like, what, 12 or 13 or something. Why should the owner care? And I am not particularly homicidal now, nope. Actually I have been far less violent since I started gaming than before. But if selling such games to underage was banned, what would happen is that their parents would buy said games for their children. Because; why should they care??

Well, unless it's one of those whacky parents that try to pass said law, but they seem to be pretty rare.

 

So in the end it's not the games, but the parentship. Maybe they should have tests to test how good parents people would be and ban them from having children if they fail? Hell, that would be a good idea everywhere in the world, not just Germany.

[Kjarista]

Meh, I bought GTA3 in the stores when I was like, what, 12 or 13 or something. Why should the owner care? And I am not particularly homicidal now, nope. Actually I have been far less violent since I started gaming than before. But if selling such games to underage was banned, what would happen is that their parents would buy said games for their children. Because; why should they care??

Well, unless it's one of those whacky parents that try to pass said law, but they seem to be pretty rare.

 

So in the end it's not the games, but the parentship. Maybe they should have tests to test how good parents people would be and ban them from having children if they fail? Hell, that would be a good idea everywhere in the world, not just Germany.

 

Well, I wouldn't...didn't let my kids buy or play games like that, or watch tv/movies which I deemed too violent. Both of my kids are adults now, and they can decide what they want to do with themselves and their kids. Their generation was the first to grow up in the Internet age, and we were forever trying to monitor their online usage.

 

Something you non parents need to be aware of: There is no perfect parent. We all suck at it. We make mistakes. We can't get our kids to listen half the time, and we can't watch them 24/7. All we can do is to teach them how to make decisions, and hope for the best. 12 year olds generally don't make good decisions...not because they lack intelligence, but because they lack experience. 18 year olds make better decisions, but generally not as well as 25 year olds. We are talking statistically here.

[Purkake]

Well, I wouldn't...didn't let my kids buy or play games like that, or watch tv/movies which I deemed too violent. Both of my kids are adults now, and they can decide what they want to do with themselves and their kids. Their generation was the first to grow up in the Internet age, and we were forever trying to monitor their online usage.

 

Something you non parents need to be aware of: There is no perfect parent. We all suck at it. We make mistakes. We can't get our kids to listen half the time, and we can't watch them 24/7. All we can do is to teach them how to make decisions, and hope for the best. 12 year olds generally don't make good decisions...not because they lack intelligence, but because they lack experience. 18 year olds make better decisions, but generally not as well as 25 year olds. We are talking statistically here.

 

I'm sure it's not easy. But the real question here is: do you want the government to take over the parenting by not just letting the stores sell these games to kids(which I'm totally ok with), but actually banning them for everyone?

[Wrath of Dagon]

Yes, I also play a horrible game like chess, which depicts the violence of war.

 

Actually, no, Chess depicts the grand strategy of war

[Deadly_Nightshade]

Chess depicts war, war is killing, chess is an abstraction of killing.

 

Ok, so I guess checkers, by that standard, is also all about war. You seem to have ignored the fact that, as I pointed out, Chess is a game of strategy, one where, I might ad, you cannot kill the enemy king – only capture it.

 

Killing in KOTOR is almost as abstract as it is in chess, or children playing with lightsabers.

 

Noooo… Killing in KotOR is much, much more brutal than the “killing” in Chess. For example, can you pick up a person and crush them to death in Chess? No, I did not think so.

 

I don't normally, no.

 

There you go, you are a hypocrite – thank you for admitting it.

 

I suppose I did play Thief, and stole things in the game, but again fantasy setting, disconnected from reality.

 

Ok, so, now, as long as something is in a fantasy or science-fiction setting it is ok with you? I guess you wouldn’t mind “Rapelay: Space Wars” or “Grand Theft Spaceship.” Please stop trying to make excuses and just admit that your previous comment was asinine.

 

The real issue is what is the purpose of what the game depicts, is it harmless fantasy fulfillment or is it actually advocating/ approving of certain actions.

 

Guess what, it’s hard to tell the two apart sometimes and this is the reason that games such as Rapelay should not be banned. Until it is proven otherwise the game should be treated as nothing more than a perverse, to quote you, “harmless fantasy fulfillment.”

 

That can only be established in context.

 

Yes, but the context still does not make a game right or wrong.