How well does Integration of Immigrants work in your country?

[Rostere]

In Sweden, immigration works OK I guess, with the sole exception of southern Sweden (that's where all the racists live. I blame Danish influence).

[Meshugger]

To simplify what Morgoth is trying to say, is that when you move to Austria, you're becoming an Austrian, no matter your heritage. I mean, is it a rational and sound conduct for norwegians to move to Bhutan but still consider themselves norwegians at heart several generations later without adopting the local customs? Is that a policy that should be adopted globally?

 

Don't people move to the US to achieve the American dream, do they not?

 

Gorth is admirable in his individualism, and i am not even disagree with the basic idea of his. But i do not see this idea to become widely adopted within my lifetime; people tend to associate themselves to different groups. Unless of course something happens a kin to what Ozymandias was trying to do.

[Meshugger]

In Sweden, immigration works OK I guess, with the sole exception of southern Sweden (that's where all the racists live. I blame Danish influence).

 

Don't the majority of swedes and immigrants live in southern Sweden? I draw the line at Stockholm as the northest part of southern Sweden.

 

I mean, a lot of people usually inflate any type of conflict.

Edited May 18, 2009 by Meshugger

[Purkake]

Maybe we could devise an immigration plan where all the different immigrant keep each other in check so that no one population would grow too large and cause too many problems...?

Edited May 18, 2009 by Purkake

[Gfted1]

^Ah, but if you try to institute a quota everyone will scream discrimination.

Edited May 18, 2009 by Gfted1

[Purkake]

^Ah, but if you try to institute a quota everyone will scream discrimination.

 

Everyone screams discrimination anyway.

 

It's probably not that good of an idea anyway.

[HoonDing]

Turkish immigrants are among the best integrated in my country (they came here in the sixties along with Italian & Spanish to work in the mines) - problems are largely (I would say, almost exclusively) with 3rd generation North-African youngsters here. Not as bad as in France, but we're getting there especially as the government is keeping their eyes closed to the problems. They don't even take a hint when an extreme right party gains 33% of votes in one of our major cities.

 

I'm not islamophobic, but I don't think it's normal that a city like Brussels turns into Kabul or Riyadh every Friday afternoon when the mosque opens for prayer - imo muslim fundamentalism is incompatible with Western culture.

Edited May 18, 2009 by virumor

[Rostere]

In Sweden, immigration works OK I guess, with the sole exception of southern Sweden (that's where all the racists live. I blame Danish influence).

 

Don't the majority of swedes and immigrants live in southern Sweden? I draw the line at Stockholm as the northest part of southern Sweden.

 

I mean, a lot of people usually inflate any type of conflict.

 

I draw the line at Sm

[Tigranes]

I remain puzzled - Morgoth, do you have anything to substantiate your beliefs that imams and mosques are a significant source of terrorism and unrest, for instance? I can see what you mean about the 3rd generation Austro-Turks, but...

[Gorgon]

I think what we are really shocked at is that they still believe in god, while most of us will only go at Christmas mass at most to show the flag.

[Cycloneman]

In Sweden, immigration works OK I guess, with the sole exception of southern Sweden (that's where all the racists live. I blame Danish influence).

Doesn't your country offer automatic asylum for women from countries like Iran or Saudi Arabia, but not for LBGT people from the same countries?

[Gorgon]

Whats an LBGT

[Trenitay]

Lesbian bisexual gay transexual.

[Rosbjerg]

In Sweden, immigration works OK I guess, with the sole exception of southern Sweden (that's where all the racists live. I blame Danish influence).

 

I'd rather blame the Nazis in your country.. but too each his own I guess..

[Gorgon]

Hehheh.

 

Do they still do their annual Rudolph Hess march. But seriously, the reason they are so big in Sweden is probably because of lax legislation. The Germans on the other hand have exported part of the problem and encouraged the Nazis to form international ties.

[Morgoth]

I remain puzzled - Morgoth, do you have anything to substantiate your beliefs that imams and mosques are a significant source of terrorism and unrest, for instance? I can see what you mean about the 3rd generation Austro-Turks, but...

It is known that radical thinking stems often from mosques and the mid-day friday speeches given there. Most of the imams are being send from Arab countries to Europe to exert this function, in most cases in their language, not the host's language. As long as imams don't help to overcome any conflicts between muslim faith and western culture, I'm afraid potential conflicts are programmed. Two imams have been arrested by CIA here in Austria for being contributors of the Madrid bombing, years ago, for example.

Edited May 19, 2009 by Morgoth

[cronicler]

Krezack; You are missing the point there mate. We are secular and still developing on private sector heavily but as the other people did point out, the usual Turkish family you meet in Eu are from more hardcore and clannish sorts instead of the more modern and western varierity.

 

On minorities, well we "my government" does not like anyone outside the party line. (You have to understand that the branch of Sunni sect that is the norm in Anatolia is actually considered quite heretical by the "True" Muslims down south.) This also includes Anatolian Shi'ite s, Hanafitas and sub cultures of Sunni sect (which means about 7 or so sects.), Armenian and Orthodox Christians, Pagans, Judaism...

It is less about harassment by the authorities but more about rural (and rural transplants into big cities) people being fed the usual batch of lies like "Christian missionaries open free school study groups to make your children into their religion!!!11!" and such. It is easy to put people into categories and be happy with simple solutions as long as you don't have to interact with them I guess.. As I have been saying, Religious bigotry is easier to grow.

 

Morgoth; Being an Imam is power. The position contains elements from being a wise-man, a negotiator, a role model... I'm sorry that you have never seen a good person in that role but Imams are there to help people with their spirutual problems. Or it should have been. Thanks to some heavy handed help from some blue and some red friends the position has become (in some places), and is seen as terrorist recruitment center. Western governments are among the people who have helped these fundamentalist **** take over from normal people. Don't expect me to feel sad for you beyond being sad for another human being when my own country is even more fragged.

 

*Imam is a person that has; memorized the Quran (This rule is from the days when books were rare and easily damaged), Knows to read and write (as he was probably one of the few people in the village with high education) and has been to Hajj (Which was actually quite simple logistic wise in the old times instead of the modern money grabber tours we have today...). His duties are to lead the mass in prayer and explain the mis or poorly understood parts and be a referee on the undocumented questions like "Is cigarettes evil?". Unlike other religions, We don't have a higher authority that manages the selection of Imams or their "propaganda" an Imam should be one from the local mass. When you say foreign person ""sent"" from x place, then my internal alarms start ringing loudly.

Edited May 19, 2009 by cronicler

[Humodour]

Turkey seems one of Europe/Mid East's shining beacons. 90 years of secular democracy, NATO member, continually developing, good example for Arabs, etc. The animosity a lot of Europeans have for Turks (Morgoth being a classic example) is almost comical from where I'm standing.

 

Strange how those who actually live there differ from your opinion.

 

Turkey's not perfect. It's behind most Western European countries. But Morgoth's blanket vilification of Turks (rather than, say, the Turkish government, specifically the current Islamist party) is offensive. It's disturbing that he sees nothing wrong with that, either. At times he raises some valid points about integration of immigrant cultures but then he blows it by acting like a bit of racist jerk.

 

I don't know, maybe Morgoth's language in this thread is fine with everybody else, but it makes my skin crawl.

[Gorgon]

I agree it is disturbing that more people haven't called him out on it. If you let that sort of thing slide it only gets worse, like an infection.

Edited May 19, 2009 by Gorgon

[Purkake]

I agree it is disturbing that more people haven't called him out on it. If you let that sort of thing slide it only gets worse, like an infection.

 

Well, there are probably bunch of people who don't care or aren't offended by it.

[Moose]

I'd say his language is quite moderate compared to some forums I've read.

[Rostere]

In Sweden, immigration works OK I guess, with the sole exception of southern Sweden (that's where all the racists live. I blame Danish influence).

Doesn't your country offer automatic asylum for women from countries like Iran or Saudi Arabia, but not for LBGT people from the same countries?

 

I bet we do... It's not hard to prove that you're a woman, but it might be harder to prove that you are lesbian, bisexual, gay and transsexual.

[Meshugger]

Turkey seems one of Europe/Mid East's shining beacons. 90 years of secular democracy, NATO member, continually developing, good example for Arabs, etc. The animosity a lot of Europeans have for Turks (Morgoth being a classic example) is almost comical from where I'm standing.

 

Strange how those who actually live there differ from your opinion.

 

Turkey's not perfect. It's behind most Western European countries. But Morgoth's blanket vilification of Turks (rather than, say, the Turkish government, specifically the current Islamist party) is offensive. It's disturbing that he sees nothing wrong with that, either. At times he raises some valid points about integration of immigrant cultures but then he blows it by acting like a bit of racist jerk.

 

I don't know, maybe Morgoth's language in this thread is fine with everybody else, but it makes my skin crawl.

 

That's because he still wishes for the Turks to be integrated into society and not creating a society within the already existing one. I see nothing offensive about that. About his personal opinions, he would be a leftwing, crying liberal in the eyes of the everyday layman, not those that you see on TV. Personally, i do not care really, i hear worse things every day.

 

cronicler: Those imams that Morgoth mentions are not the same as they have in Turkey, which usually is the old guy who has lived in the neighbourhood for all his life, who knows everyone and understand the social barriers of the everyday Turk. In the UK, Germany and alike, the mosques are not publicly funded and they are usually seeking funds from other sources/countries, and guess which country donates the most money ? Saudi-Arabia. Guess where the Imams get their training? Saudi-Arabia. Guess from where the Imams invite thier fellow other imams for guest-sermons? Saudi-Arabia. And finally, guess from where Wahabism a la Bin Laden comes from? You guessed it, Saudi-Arabia. Thus, we see a radicalization of a muslim generation.

 

Channel 4 in GB had an interesting documentary on the subject. While the mosques got more radicalized, the local politicians turned blind eye in the name of political correctness.

 

Bear in mind, i am against islam and other Abrahamian religions personally, but lets reserve that for another thread.

Edited May 19, 2009 by Meshugger

[Walsingham]

*snip*

I believe entirely in immigration, from as many diverse places as possible. But I also believe in doing it right, and that means a proper framework for acceptance, and support. Unfortunately, like most things I believe in, no-one seems to be willing to pay the up front price, and are quite happy to accept the far larger secondary costs.

 

Well, I think Australia does it right. You set limits, boundaries, and frameworks. We significantly lowered our intake of sub-Saharans at one point because they were simply not integrating well. It's completely reasonable to expect your immigrants to obey your laws, learn your language (but not lose their own), arrive with savings, and find a job (hence why skilled workers are given priority).

 

I believe part of the problem in Europe, and I've done a little research on the Netherlands and France, is that in the 1970's or so (from memory), the governments of the time pitched these massive immigration pushes to places like Turkey and the Middle East for cheap labour at the height of the baby boom. Unfortunately they didn't bother to screen those arrivals, didn't bother to plan for what would would happen 10 years later (perhaps they expected them to simply go home?), didn't bother to ensure the arrivals had saved to pay for their stay, and didn't bother to integrate them from the start.

 

 

Economic migrants are surely different to refugees? You can't expect someone who flees for their life to turn up in the same state as someone who plans it?

 

I agree that there seems an unsavoury capitalist urge to import brown coloured slaves, I mean workers, in to Europe. I don't think it's a good idea for the vast majority of Europeans, or for the immigrants, or their native countries.

 

Incidentally someone asked me who I thought would pick up the litter if there were no migrants. I replied that things wuold be better all round if we learned to not drop the bloody stuff in the first place and didn't oblige a perfectly capable human being to behave like a grazing animal.

[Moatilliatta]

I haven't read the thread too diligently and as such I'm sorry if this has already been mentioned.

 

I'd be carefull with the kind of vilifying I've seen of Imams in this thread. I can only speak of what I've learned of how danish integration work but here in Denmark the Imams have been utilized to actually prevent extremism by our national security intelligence service to prevent extremist behaviour. I wouldn't ever say that Imams can't be the proverbial bad apple but the media and people with xenophobic agendas often scapegoat the Imams to a laughable degree.

 

It is known that radical thinking stems often from mosques and the mid-day friday speeches given there.

Do you have any sources for that? That is beyond what you stated in your post.

 

Everything I've always learned about muslim extremism in general says that extremists will try to segregate themselves from the mainstreem religion in the belief that they follow a more "pure" strain of Islam.

 

I agree that there seems an unsavoury capitalist urge to import brown coloured slaves, I mean workers, in to Europe. I don't think it's a good idea for the vast majority of Europeans, or for the immigrants, or their native countries.

 

Incidentally someone asked me who I thought would pick up the litter if there were no migrants. I replied that things wuold be better all round if we learned to not drop the bloody stuff in the first place and didn't oblige a perfectly capable human being to behave like a grazing animal.

Idealism won't change the needs of a society.

 

The only thing that can prevent our need for "brown coloured slaves" would be to remove peoples welfare goodies or get quite a bit better at mechanizing the work that people are "too important" to do. One of the suggestions isn't palatable and the other is relatively unrealistic.

 

It also strikes me somewhat like arguing against the enclosure. It isn't exactly utopian but does anyone really want to live without it?