FO: NV

[Wombat]

Music can really help.

Yeah, isn't that one of FO3's worse aspects, though? In the "just out of the vault" scene, I don't even remember if any special sound effects or music are played. And despite having an awesome idea (listening to radio stations), they ended up with a half-assed Black Courier-jukebox hybrid. Funny, because some of the stations you can pick up, and the areas/sidequests they are associated with are very good and contribute a lot to the atmosphere; incidentally, they are also a good example of how you don't need a textbox to set the mood. But the freaking MAIN radio station of the wasteland gets repetitive after about twenty minutes.

Fallout 3's major failing: the game is built around your love for your father and doesn't even try to act as if one could feel anything else than unrestricted, completely compassionate love for that character.

But man, how can you feel anything BUT love for Qui-Gon Jinn?

Hahaha. It's a kind of old trick in an attempt to make the players to sympathize with the protagonist although there are differences depending on executions. Remember Gorion in Baldur's Gate? In an interview at Eurogamer, Emil agreed when the interviewer point out that the role of the father of the protagonist in FO3 may be similar to that of Paul Denton in Deus Ex.

 

Eurogamer: How do you go about beginning to create a new story for an established world?

Emil Pagliarulo: It's funny. Setting it in DC - it meant we knew what we needed to do. Originally we had it set on the West coast, but it just didn't work. Eventually I said, "Write what you know." So we have a location that doesn't appear all over the place in videogames. It's such a great place for a game. As for the story, I really like stories that are character-based, so how do those characters change throughout the game? So take the relationship with "my" father. He's my moral compass, a good guy, a noble character, so if I'm an evil bastard how does he react to me? If I blow up a town, what does he think?

Eurogamer: It sounds like the role of Denton's brother in Deus Ex?

Emil Pagliarulo: Yeah, I'd not thought of that before. He is your moral compass too.

Eurogamer: So how does that relationship affect the narrative?

Gavin Carter: We really wanted to simulate growing up in the vault. Your dad is like this warm, inviting guy. He's Liam Neeson! Who wouldn't want Liam Neeson as their dad, right? Then you wake up one day and he's up and left. He hasn't told you about it, you don't know what's going on. A lot of the game is about, what is his motivation? What is he working on, why did he leave? What happened to him? That's one of the central themes of the game.

Eurogamer: Does that relationship impact on the moral dimensions of the game?

Gavin Carter: To an extent. A large part of the game is spent with him absent, so a lot of stuff happens outside of that relationship. We wanted the relationship as a central point of the plot, so we don't want you to be able to say, piss off your dad and ruin the plot. To have a narrative you have to have some parts that are more strict. We definitely want you to feel like he is a central character in your life. When he leaves it is the biggest climactic moment in your life. No one ever leaves the vault - it is entirely self-contained.

I haven't played FO3 and I cannot tell whether the execution was done well or not, though.

[bhlaab]

I haven't played FO3 and I cannot tell whether the execution was done well or not, though.

 

no

[Gromnir]

I also hate being told what my character "feels".

 

Fallout 3's major failing: the game is built around your love for your father and doesn't even try to act as if one could feel anything else than unrestricted, completely compassionate love for that character.

 

fix it. am no more a fan o' fo3 plot than is most in this thread, but if you see busted, then fix... but keep in mind that you got a protagonist-centric, character driven story. now, make compelling. keep flexible so that Mikael can play how he wishes to, but gotta also work for vol and aristes and a few hundred thousand other folks.

 

fix it.

 

for the nonce, ignore whether or not a crpg needs to be story driven. also, assume that the player's character has gotta be more important to story simply acting as the means by which plot points is advanced. now, fix. find a way to make story compelling And universal flexible. o' and mere fact that player is the protagonist will not result in a compelling story anymore than story o' your pong paddle becomes inherent compelling.

 

am not a fan o' protagonist focus in a crpg story, but most developers start with such stuff. assuming you start as does bethesda and bio and so many other developers, come up with a story that retains protagonist focus and considerable flexibility while achieving emotional impact.

 

HA! Good Fun!

[bhlaab]

I also hate being told what my character "feels".

 

Fallout 3's major failing: the game is built around your love for your father and doesn't even try to act as if one could feel anything else than unrestricted, completely compassionate love for that character.

 

fix it. am no more a fan o' fo3 plot than is most in this thread, but if you see busted, then fix... but keep in mind that you got a protagonist-centric, character driven story. now, make compelling. keep flexible so that Mikael can play how he wishes to, but gotta also work for vol and aristes and a few hundred thousand other folks.

 

fix it.

 

for the nonce, ignore whether or not a crpg needs to be story driven. also, assume that the player's character has gotta be more important to story simply acting as the means by which plot points is advanced. now, fix. find a way to make story compelling And universal flexible. o' and mere fact that player is the protagonist will not result in a compelling story anymore than story o' your pong paddle becomes inherent compelling.

 

am not a fan o' protagonist focus in a crpg story, but most developers start with such stuff. assuming you start as does bethesda and bio and so many other developers, come up with a story that retains protagonist focus and considerable flexibility while achieving emotional impact.

 

HA! Good Fun!

 

If you're suggesting a complete TC mod for fallout 3, you're being unrealistic. That could take a whole HOUR to do.

[Gromnir]

am not suggesting a mod. if betehesda did wrong way, then what is correct way? is there a more appropriate raison detre for the player? save-the-world is popular 'cause gives understandable motivation for any character, regardless of moral or philosophical pov... but that gets the cliche label, no? so bethesda story is busted and save-the-world/village/galaxy is tired. so, give Gromnir a broad stroke sketch of right way, given the limitations noted in our previous post.

 

HA! Good Fun!

[Kjarista]

I also hate being told what my character "feels".

 

Fallout 3's major failing: the game is built around your love for your father and doesn't even try to act as if one could feel anything else than unrestricted, completely compassionate love for that character.

 

The game is not built around that. As many have pointed out, the story is weak. This is a sandbox RPG. The point of the game is to explore and interact with the world. Besides, if you really feel this way, you missed much of the story. The father figure is very easy to hate.

[bhlaab]

Well, the reason Paul Denton worked is because he was such a side character in the story that it didn't matter what he thought of you (or even if he survived) and his presence as a guiding voice didn't crush you under the weight of its sentimentality.

 

The problem is, like Martin in Oblivion, the Dad runs the show entirely. You become the most evil person ever, he forgives you and keeps giving you quests that put the fate of the world on your shoulders. You tell him to go screw and vow not to help him with his stupid water project, you never finish the game. The game assumes that you love him and works backwards from there, which is a mistake. That's why the Fallout series relied so heavily on macguffin objects instead of a series of very specific narrative quests-- it gives a huge amount of freedom for the player to maneuver in.

[Tagaziel]

Then how come the only dialogue options available to the character are the ones that are, at worst, neutral towards dad? You can't tell him you hate him, you can't tell other characters you hated him or don't care that he kicked the bucket because he's an idiot, every character is written with the assumption that the player at least liked the Father character and that the big, dramatic moment at the Memorial somehow affected him. For me, it was the worst desynch between me and my character in a game, ever.

 

So, yeah, the player can hate Dad, but his character has love for dad hardwired.

 

And yeah, the storyline is weak. A good example of how to do protagonist/character driven storylines is KOTOR2, where your dialogue choices and actions determine your character's feelings, not an arbitrary decision by a writer.

 

That and the option to side with the Enclave and convince dad Autumn knows best (which he does).

[213374U]

That's why the Fallout series relied so heavily on macguffin objects instead of a series of very specific narrative quests-- it gives a huge amount of freedom for the player to maneuver in.

Which results in (or perhaps stems from) a much weaker and less cohesive narrative, with possibly less involvement from the player, both explicitly and motivation wise. Which is, if I understood correctly, the point Gromnir was making.

 

Tastes.

[Tagaziel]

That's why the Fallout series relied so heavily on macguffin objects instead of a series of very specific narrative quests-- it gives a huge amount of freedom for the player to maneuver in.

Which results in (or perhaps stems from) a much weaker and less cohesive narrative, with possibly less involvement from the player, both explicitly and motivation wise. Which is, if I understood correctly, the point Gromnir was making.

 

Tastes.

 

Fallout has a narrative? That's new.

[213374U]

Fallout has a narrative? That's new.

Whether you are being sarcastic or not, I can't tell. I'm going to grant you the benefit of doubt though, and simply recommend that you practice some more.

[Tagaziel]

I'm just surprised, as through my several complete replays not once did I suspect it of having a narrative, defined as a pre-defined way the story unfolds in. With the amount of freedom granted to the player, there's no real narrative, at least to me.

[alanschu]

Seemed pretty clear to me.

 

The whole quest to save the vault and all that jazz.

 

I mean, the game does stop when your vault is attacked.

[213374U]

I'm just surprised, as through my several complete replays not once did I suspect it of having a narrative, defined as a pre-defined way the story unfolds in. With the amount of freedom granted to the player, there's no real narrative, at least to me.

Oops. Little misunderstanding back there, I thought you were trying to be clever. Sorry.

 

The game must have a narrative (not to be confused with a plot), obviously, since, regardless of format, it's a work of fiction. You are being told what's going on in a world somebody made up, who are the good guys, the bad guys, their motives and whatnot - the form in which this information reaches you is not important. But if you thought there's no narrative proper, that's a good indication of how different that is from the very central role the characters and story plays in FO3. Less room for freestyling, but in exchange for a more involved story and characters.

[bhlaab]

I'm just surprised, as through my several complete replays not once did I suspect it of having a narrative, defined as a pre-defined way the story unfolds in. With the amount of freedom granted to the player, there's no real narrative, at least to me.

Oops. Little misunderstanding back there, I thought you were trying to be clever. Sorry.

 

The game must have a narrative (not to be confused with a plot), obviously, since, regardless of format, it's a work of fiction. You are being told what's going on in a world somebody made up, who are the good guys, the bad guys, their motives and whatnot - the form in which this information reaches you is not important. But if you thought there's no narrative proper, that's a good indication of how different that is from the very central role the characters and story plays in FO3. Less room for freestyling, but in exchange for a more involved story and characters.

 

If that's more involved, I'll have less next time please.

[213374U]

I suppose it should be obvious that neither approach is inherently superior. Execution. Tastes.

[TwinkieGorilla]

I suppose it should be obvious that neither approach is inherently superior. Execution. Tastes.

 

meh. FO3 is inherently inferior in every department but the most trite technological advances (re: graphics) and even those are soggy.

[213374U]

And I guess I'll just take your word for it. You look like such an informed fellow!

[alanschu]

Yeah the graphics are clearly only a moderate improvement. And only if you get really close to the monitor and squint.

[bhlaab]

I gotta say I think the stupid Total Recall-style latex models were much cooler than any engine could render

[Tagaziel]

Yeah the graphics are clearly only a moderate improvement. And only if you get really close to the monitor and squint.

 

I think he's referring to the quality of Fo3 as set against modern titles. Fo3 is not even a contender, with its nearly a decade old haphazardly modified engine.

 

And yeah, Fallout 1 and 2 were better in terms of variety. In Fo3, you have only two models for adult humans (ghouls, blacks, whites, yellows, greens, cyans etc.) with absolutely no variations in anatomy. Everyone is of exactly the same height, muscular build, cup size etc. whereas Fallout 1 had (I think) around ten or twenty different models.

[alanschu]

Given past interactions with him, I think he's just a big fan of the original Fallouts and doesn't hesitate to slam Fallout 3 at every opportunity.

[TwinkieGorilla]

And I guess I'll just take your word for it. You look like such an informed fellow!

 

the **** is this? i *look* a certain way to you? are you saying you've seen my picture and have made a judgment on my character because of this? what are you? 3?

 

Yeah the graphics are clearly only a moderate improvement. And only if you get really close to the monitor and squint.

 

oh hey awesome, this guy again...taking a statement and misinterpreting it! cool!

 

I think he's referring to the quality of Fo3 as set against modern titles. Fo3 is not even a contender, with its nearly a decade old haphazardly modified engine.

 

And yeah, Fallout 1 and 2 were better in terms of variety. In Fo3, you have only two models for adult humans (ghouls, blacks, whites, yellows, greens, cyans etc.) with absolutely no variations in anatomy. Everyone is of exactly the same height, muscular build, cup size etc. whereas Fallout 1 had (I think) around ten or twenty different models.

 

hey look! somebody who has actually paid attention to my previous posts and has the wit to understand where my snarky remark was directed.

 

Given past interactions with him, I think he's just a big fan of the original Fallouts and doesn't hesitate to slam Fallout 3 at every opportunity.

 

yeah, uh...while that may be true it's not like i haven't, in detail, listed my reasons. so playing the "what you're saying is crazy!" card with me doesn't quite cut it.

Edited July 8, 2009 by TwinkieGorilla

[213374U]

the **** is this? i *look* a certain way to you? are you saying you've seen my picture and have made a judgment on my character because of this? what are you? 3?

Even better. I've seen your arguments. Well, more like, your lack thereof.

 

And this 3 year old just beat you at debate. Lol, owned.

[TwinkieGorilla]

And this 3 year old just beat you at debate.

 

not quite, pal. i'm not debating anything with you. i asked you a question to which you gave a half-hearted response which barely qualifies your earlier statement. and let's be clear here, which arguments of mine are you speaking of? because it's been quite some time since i've posted anything serious on the subject though when i have they were clear and concise points. i'd be surprised if you weren't simply puffing out your internet-chest and talking out of your ass.

 

Lol, owned.

 

ah yes, indeed. you sir have won the internet!