Few Suggestions

[Cl_Flushentityhero]

I mean, as a fight enthusiast, I would love to see a game that just tried to capture the feel of a real fight but A) it would have a really small market B) be really broken in terms of balance C) and would likely have some really nasty control issues do to the fact that people fighting do a lot of different things.

 

Is reality actually all that unbalanced? Even within the rather limited arena of MMA, you can see a variety of techniques and strategies employed successfully.

 

MMA is not a real fight. MMA has a ton of rules that allow fighters to actually have careers of any length.

 

Which means you see even *more* viable techniques in a real fight. Again, what are the balance issues?

[Joseph Bulock]

MMA is not a real fight. MMA has a ton of rules that allow fighters to actually have careers of any length.

 

Which means you see even *more* viable techniques in a real fight. Again, what are the balance issues?

 

Because any system that has "win buttons" will feel shallow. Real fights have many win buttons. A lucky or skilled shot to the groin, eyes, throat, chin or temple end fights. It's as often as not the more skilled fighter that hits one of these targets. It would be very hard to make these targets feasible without making them the whole game. Notice that I didn't just say there would be balance issues, but pacing and control issues.

 

Another issue is that real fights are very environmental. Giving the player a reasonable way to use their surroundings without breaking the game would be really challenging. In a real fight, pushing someone into something that causes them to trip and then kicking them repeatedly while they are down is a great fight strategy. Sounds like a really awful game though.

[Cl_Flushentityhero]

Short version: would it be an incredibly ambitious and difficult work to do such a game? You bet. I wouldn't call it impossible or doomed to fail though.

 

I dunno, sounds like fun to me. Should I get examined?

 

I can see how it would be technically very demanding to make such a game. That said, the barriers aren't that different in concept from those one would face making the great authentic shooter, or the ultimate golf game. I'm definitely hoping that over time the industry will make baby steps though. A first move in fighting might be general adherence to the laws of physics (no juggling, etc), then toning down the moves to look a little less over-the-top (or rather to coincide with actual moves), then designing a "meta game" that more closely resembles real dynamics than something arbitrary that developers invented. As with any genre, there is unlikely to ever be a definitive game that does everything.

 

That said, whether it's shooting people or punching them, I think realism is a somewhat neglected source of methods for balancing gameplay. Even "the most authentic" game of any sort is really cherry picked realistic considerations used for balancing a meta-game that somewhat resembles real-life analysis of the actual event. I would say Fight Night 3 does pretty much that for the sport of boxing.

 

It's not that there isn't more *to* boxing than Fight Night portrays, it's that they managed to find the right elements to create an enjoyable experience for which the overall strategy is at least recognizable to fans of the sport.

 

I'd go so far as to say that for any unarmed attack, there exists some kind of effective counter that could be coded into the game. Whether the counter is known or employed depends on a lot of things, many of which go beyond two guys simply squaring off with fists at the ready. So, like anything else, fighting is complicated. If you throw it into the social settings, dominance hierarchies, and motives surrounding real fighting, it gets even more involved.

 

As far as giving players complete control over their character's body, that's (as you say) beyond today's game tech. Since that's a given, the degree of player control beyond that is something that's negotiated on a per title (and situational) basis. For a pure shooter, it suffices to have a single button press lead to a canned animation of a CQC "fight." In this instance, the CQC is as authentic as the mocap actors decide to make it. For a game like Fight Night, something as subtle as being able to control the angle of your punches is central to gameplay.

 

It's arguably important in a real fight as well. Still, the key is to maintain an ideal level of control for the player while still representing the most important realistic considerations. There is a difference between having players play out a fight that looks realistic and having them pay attention to all the things a fighter might. From there it's just a matter of finding the right middle ground. You're not sacrificing realism so much as automating realistic things that can't be handled by current interfaces.

 

In that sense, the game almost becomes commentary of a sort, but commentary where the audience is at least thinking "well, yeah, that could potentially happen." The magnum opus of violent video games, IMO, would be a title that integrated the social, political, and cultural aspects of violence with gameplay mechanics and plot that fit into the world the game attempts to occupy. In itself, it would be both a commentary on the state of the world and on the state of gaming.

 

A reasonably authentic fighting game need not be that, but it would be something you would need to tap into in doing a game about street violence (or an espionage CRPG). If you just wanted a tournament fighting game with no rules, you could mostly avoid the social/cultural stuff and still do a lot of innovation in the genre. The latter might even lead to the former.

[Tigranes]

What you say doesn't really touch on Bulock's central point, though - that unarmed fighting a la 'real life' would present serious technical challenges in its implementation that would require, at the very least, a much bigger focus on it from the ground up.

[Killian Kalthorne]

My only suggestion is to let the player have more control in character creation, but it is a little late for that now.

[Cl_Flushentityhero]

What you say doesn't really touch on Bulock's central point, though - that unarmed fighting a la 'real life' would present serious technical challenges in its implementation that would require, at the very least, a much bigger focus on it from the ground up.

 

I don't think that's any more true for unarmed fighting than it is for shooting or playing baseball. Every interface is dumbed-down.

 

Edit: figuring out what is "authentic" in the first place is a challenge by itself. Separate from that, I think the problem of mocapping animations etc. is very doable. I did not say a realistic fighting game would be easy or a cash cow, I said it could potentially be doable and fun.

Edited March 29, 2009 by Cl_Flushentityhero

[Oblarg]

What you say doesn't really touch on Bulock's central point, though - that unarmed fighting a la 'real life' would present serious technical challenges in its implementation that would require, at the very least, a much bigger focus on it from the ground up.

 

I don't think that's any more true for unarmed fighting than it is for shooting or playing baseball. Every interface is dumbed-down.

 

Edit: figuring out what is "authentic" in the first place is a challenge by itself. Separate from that, I think the problem of mocapping animations etc. is very doable. I did not say a realistic fighting game would be easy or a cash cow, I said it could potentially be doable and fun.

 

Sure, but that's all irrelevant. The point is, Alpha Protocol is a big enough challenge as is, and realistic fighting would take too much time/resources to be worth it.

[Cl_Flushentityhero]

Mocapping more realistic animations would've been a pretty simple step if they so chose, but what's done is done and that wasn't my point.

 

Not sure if you all read Bullock's original post, but he was talking about the theory of making a realistic fighting game, not AP specifically.

[Oblarg]

Mocapping more realistic animations would've been a pretty simple step if they so chose, but what's done is done and that wasn't my point.

 

Not sure if you all read Bullock's original post, but he was talking about the theory of making a realistic fighting game, not AP specifically.

 

The animations look fine from what I've seen, especially the takedown animation, although I hope there is more than one.

[Zoma]

I don't think it will be an issue. I have yet to see any other games in general having more than one take downs. Gears of War has the stomp and chainsaw animation, Splinter Cell has front and back stabs animation that only last for one second.

 

The only game I'm aware that has LOTS of take down animations would be Tenchu. Depending which direction the you take down the enemy, its got its own unique animation.

[Cl_Flushentityhero]

I can think of a few offhand that had good variety: Army of Two, Bourne Conspiracy, Kane & Lynch, Dead to Rights.

 

I would be shocked if AP didn't have at least a few different ones though. I also don't think it will be an issue, albeit for different reasons.

[Oblarg]

I can think of a few offhand that had good variety: Army of Two, Bourne Conspiracy, Kane & Lynch, Dead to Rights.

 

I would be shocked if AP didn't have at least a few different ones though. I also don't think it will be an issue, albeit for different reasons.

 

Which reasons are these?

[Cl_Flushentityhero]

I can think of a few offhand that had good variety: Army of Two, Bourne Conspiracy, Kane & Lynch, Dead to Rights.

 

I would be shocked if AP didn't have at least a few different ones though. I also don't think it will be an issue, albeit for different reasons.

 

Which reasons are these?

 

Well, the moves are all mocapped, so with the amount of time spent in the studio it seems unlikely that they would have a plethora of different strikes and only one takedown for each situation (armed/unarmed front/back). Martial Artists also tend to know a variety of takedowns, and many like to show them off. Add to that that the CQC is it's own skill and level progression is supposed to grant new combos etc., and it seems like too significant a portion of the game to skimp on visually. Ao2 and K&L didn't even have much in the way of mechanics governing CQC, it was just something you used when you ended up too close. In the case of AP it's a "weapon" skill with its own progression like pistols and assault rifles.

 

That's just my edumacated guesswork though, Sawyer might step in at any moment to tell us (hint hint).

[Oblarg]

I can think of a few offhand that had good variety: Army of Two, Bourne Conspiracy, Kane & Lynch, Dead to Rights.

 

I would be shocked if AP didn't have at least a few different ones though. I also don't think it will be an issue, albeit for different reasons.

 

Which reasons are these?

 

Well, the moves are all mocapped, so with the amount of time spent in the studio it seems unlikely that they would have a plethora of different strikes and only one takedown for each situation (armed/unarmed front/back). Martial Artists also tend to know a variety of takedowns, and many like to show them off. Add to that that the CQC is it's own skill and level progression is supposed to grant new combos etc., and it seems like too significant a portion of the game to skimp on visually. Ao2 and K&L didn't even have much in the way of mechanics governing CQC, it was just something you used when you ended up too close. In the case of AP it's a "weapon" skill with its own progression like pistols and assault rifles.

 

That's just my edumacated guesswork though, Sawyer might step in at any moment to tell us (hint hint).

 

Fair enough.

 

I must say, the one takedown we've seen is pretty badass.

[Zoma]

Isn't almost everything in Alpha Protocol aside from basic animations like ladder climbing Mo-capped? Believe that includes CQC combat also.

Edited March 30, 2009 by Zoma

[Tigranes]

I don't think that's any more true for unarmed fighting than it is for shooting or playing baseball. Every interface is dumbed-down.

 

I think without addressing Bulock's very specific points about challenges unique to this particular activity ('real' CQC), you are jumping to much more generalised statements - in which case, the vectors of thought simply aren't meeting. For me his descriptions about those specific challenges are pretty convincing, unless you were simply expressing your wish for some new game that really tackles that issue in the face with a crowbar - in which case, fair enough.

 

I think it's all mocap.

[Cl_Flushentityhero]

I don't think that's any more true for unarmed fighting than it is for shooting or playing baseball. Every interface is dumbed-down.

 

I think without addressing Bulock's very specific points about challenges unique to this particular activity ('real' CQC), you are jumping to much more generalised statements - in which case, the vectors of thought simply aren't meeting. For me his descriptions about those specific challenges are pretty convincing, unless you were simply expressing your wish for some new game that really tackles that issue in the face with a crowbar - in which case, fair enough.

 

I think it's all mocap.

 

Actually, a new game that tackles the issue in the face with a crowbar is what Bullock expressed, and I responded to.

 

I mean, as a fight enthusiast, I would love to see a game that just tried to capture the feel of a real fight but A) it would have a really small market B) be really broken in terms of balance C) and would likely have some really nasty control issues do to the fact that people fighting do a lot of different things.

[Joseph Bulock]

I can think of a few offhand that had good variety: Army of Two, Bourne Conspiracy, Kane & Lynch, Dead to Rights.

 

I would be shocked if AP didn't have at least a few different ones though. I also don't think it will be an issue, albeit for different reasons.

 

Which reasons are these?

 

Well, the moves are all mocapped, so with the amount of time spent in the studio it seems unlikely that they would have a plethora of different strikes and only one takedown for each situation (armed/unarmed front/back). Martial Artists also tend to know a variety of takedowns, and many like to show them off. Add to that that the CQC is it's own skill and level progression is supposed to grant new combos etc., and it seems like too significant a portion of the game to skimp on visually. Ao2 and K&L didn't even have much in the way of mechanics governing CQC, it was just something you used when you ended up too close. In the case of AP it's a "weapon" skill with its own progression like pistols and assault rifles.

 

That's just my edumacated guesswork though, Sawyer might step in at any moment to tell us (hint hint).

 

The game currently features multiple takedowns. I even did the mocap for one of them.

[Cl_Flushentityhero]

I can think of a few offhand that had good variety: Army of Two, Bourne Conspiracy, Kane & Lynch, Dead to Rights.

 

I would be shocked if AP didn't have at least a few different ones though. I also don't think it will be an issue, albeit for different reasons.

 

Which reasons are these?

 

Well, the moves are all mocapped, so with the amount of time spent in the studio it seems unlikely that they would have a plethora of different strikes and only one takedown for each situation (armed/unarmed front/back). Martial Artists also tend to know a variety of takedowns, and many like to show them off. Add to that that the CQC is it's own skill and level progression is supposed to grant new combos etc., and it seems like too significant a portion of the game to skimp on visually. Ao2 and K&L didn't even have much in the way of mechanics governing CQC, it was just something you used when you ended up too close. In the case of AP it's a "weapon" skill with its own progression like pistols and assault rifles.

 

That's just my edumacated guesswork though, Sawyer might step in at any moment to tell us (hint hint).

 

The game currently features multiple takedowns. I even did the mocap for one of them.

 

Nice. Do we win anything if we can figure out which one when the game releases?

[Oblarg]

I can think of a few offhand that had good variety: Army of Two, Bourne Conspiracy, Kane & Lynch, Dead to Rights.

 

I would be shocked if AP didn't have at least a few different ones though. I also don't think it will be an issue, albeit for different reasons.

 

Which reasons are these?

 

Well, the moves are all mocapped, so with the amount of time spent in the studio it seems unlikely that they would have a plethora of different strikes and only one takedown for each situation (armed/unarmed front/back). Martial Artists also tend to know a variety of takedowns, and many like to show them off. Add to that that the CQC is it's own skill and level progression is supposed to grant new combos etc., and it seems like too significant a portion of the game to skimp on visually. Ao2 and K&L didn't even have much in the way of mechanics governing CQC, it was just something you used when you ended up too close. In the case of AP it's a "weapon" skill with its own progression like pistols and assault rifles.

 

That's just my edumacated guesswork though, Sawyer might step in at any moment to tell us (hint hint).

 

The game currently features multiple takedowns. I even did the mocap for one of them.

 

Good to hear.

 

Anyway, from what I've seen the CQC looks fine. I'm wondering how the gunplay will work out, considering I'm planning to max out pistols and stealth and do some chainshotting out of cover.

[Pidesco]

I can think of a few offhand that had good variety: Army of Two, Bourne Conspiracy, Kane & Lynch, Dead to Rights.

 

I would be shocked if AP didn't have at least a few different ones though. I also don't think it will be an issue, albeit for different reasons.

 

Which reasons are these?

 

Well, the moves are all mocapped, so with the amount of time spent in the studio it seems unlikely that they would have a plethora of different strikes and only one takedown for each situation (armed/unarmed front/back). Martial Artists also tend to know a variety of takedowns, and many like to show them off. Add to that that the CQC is it's own skill and level progression is supposed to grant new combos etc., and it seems like too significant a portion of the game to skimp on visually. Ao2 and K&L didn't even have much in the way of mechanics governing CQC, it was just something you used when you ended up too close. In the case of AP it's a "weapon" skill with its own progression like pistols and assault rifles.

 

That's just my edumacated guesswork though, Sawyer might step in at any moment to tell us (hint hint).

 

The game currently features multiple takedowns. I even did the mocap for one of them.

 

Nice. Do we win anything if we can figure out which one when the game releases?

 

 

It's the one where Thorton takes a bad guy down by stabbing him with a pocket protector. It's, at the same time, geeky and awesome because it takes the "everything is a weapon" mantra to the next level.

[Joseph Bulock]

I can think of a few offhand that had good variety: Army of Two, Bourne Conspiracy, Kane & Lynch, Dead to Rights.

 

I would be shocked if AP didn't have at least a few different ones though. I also don't think it will be an issue, albeit for different reasons.

 

Which reasons are these?

 

Well, the moves are all mocapped, so with the amount of time spent in the studio it seems unlikely that they would have a plethora of different strikes and only one takedown for each situation (armed/unarmed front/back). Martial Artists also tend to know a variety of takedowns, and many like to show them off. Add to that that the CQC is it's own skill and level progression is supposed to grant new combos etc., and it seems like too significant a portion of the game to skimp on visually. Ao2 and K&L didn't even have much in the way of mechanics governing CQC, it was just something you used when you ended up too close. In the case of AP it's a "weapon" skill with its own progression like pistols and assault rifles.

 

That's just my edumacated guesswork though, Sawyer might step in at any moment to tell us (hint hint).

 

The game currently features multiple takedowns. I even did the mocap for one of them.

 

Nice. Do we win anything if we can figure out which one when the game releases?

 

I'd like to, but it's pretty easy to guess which one was not done by a kempo guy.

[Zoma]

I presume you mo-capped as the helpless victim? :D

[Joseph Bulock]

I presume you mo-capped as the helpless victim? :D

 

Nope! I had one of my class assistants come in for that.

[Alvin Nelson]

Isn't almost everything in Alpha Protocol aside from basic animations like ladder climbing Mo-capped? Believe that includes CQC combat also.

 

Most animations in our game are mo-capped, yes.