Few Suggestions

[Fisherman]

I found out about this game last week and since then I've been hyped by what I've seen so far. To be honest it looks great and it sounds even better but I've seen the new trailer and there are few things that I don't really seem that fits into this kind of game. We're talking about CIA agent who is highly trained with firearms and martial arts. The fact that he uses kenpo as his martial arts suspects me because I don't think it fits the game at all - the fact that he goes kicking people off with fancy moves makes me feel like its Tekken.

 

The other thing that suspects me is the power of firearms. In the recent trailer he needs to put lots of bullets to take out one guy and thats just not right. I know its RPG -style, but the lack of common sense is not a good thing. We all know it doesn't take 10 bullets to kill one guy with assault rifle even if he is wearing bulletproof vest.

 

I hope you get the idea.

[H]

The fact that he uses kenpo as his martial arts suspects me because I don't think it fits the game at all - the fact that he goes kicking people off with fancy moves makes me feel like its Tekken.

I don't think there is anything wrong with some old-fashioned fisticuffs, as long as you can't increase unarmed damage by channeling your chi, catch bullets on the fly, or tear apart the gun from a tank.

The other thing that suspects me is the power of firearms. In the recent trailer he needs to put lots of bullets to take out one guy and thats just not right. I know its RPG -style, but the lack of common sense is not a good thing. We all know it doesn't take 10 bullets to kill one guy with assault rifle even if he is wearing bulletproof vest.

And that's exactly why weapon skills should affect accuracy (crosshair size) instead of damage. A bullet is a bullet.

[Gfted1]

The fact that he uses kenpo as his martial arts suspects me because I don't think it fits the game at all - the fact that he goes kicking people off with fancy moves makes me feel like its Tekken.

 

Iirc, it was stated by one of the developers that they chose that style primarily because it "looks cool". Meaning, CQC was always intended to be in the game and they also wanted one thats fun/looks good.

 

The other thing that suspects me is the power of firearms. In the recent trailer he needs to put lots of bullets to take out one guy and thats just not right. I know its RPG -style, but the lack of common sense is not a good thing. We all know it doesn't take 10 bullets to kill one guy with assault rifle even if he is wearing bulletproof vest.

 

 

In that case your going to want to avoid the trailer that has MT and some bad guy about two feet away from each other going all full auto on each other.

[Fisherman]

The fact that he uses kenpo as his martial arts suspects me because I don't think it fits the game at all - the fact that he goes kicking people off with fancy moves makes me feel like its Tekken.

 

Iirc, it was stated by one of the developers that they chose that style primarily because it "looks cool". Meaning, CQC was always intended to be in the game and they also wanted one thats fun/looks good.

 

The other thing that suspects me is the power of firearms. In the recent trailer he needs to put lots of bullets to take out one guy and thats just not right. I know its RPG -style, but the lack of common sense is not a good thing. We all know it doesn't take 10 bullets to kill one guy with assault rifle even if he is wearing bulletproof vest.

 

 

In that case your going to want to avoid the trailer that has MT and some bad guy about two feet away from each other going all full auto on each other.

I just think martial arts is immature part of combat because its something you would never use in unarmed CQB. Sure it looks somehow nice in some movies, but I'm kind of the guy who prefers more mature combat style. Something that even a real agent would use. Something that they train you in USMC for example.

 

I agree totally that weapons skill should affect to accuracy instead of damage. I'm not trying to tell the devs that this game should be realistic just that it makes sense.

 

There was also a part in that trailer when he throws that arab off the cliff and it looks so unrealistic and stupid to be honest. I understand if they want to make the game fun, but what I don't understand that its rated M for Mature. If its suppose to be a game for the more mature gamers then why make it so immature?

 

Just telling my opinions - no hard feelings.

[Gfted1]

Here is a monster thread on CQC, complete with some of the dev's chiming in on why that style was chosen.

[Fisherman]

Here is a monster thread on CQC, complete with some of the dev's chiming in on why that style was chosen.

They say in that topic that the player will attack with real hand-to-hand moves but yet in the trailer he seems to spin and at the same time hit with his fist which just seems..dull?`

http://www.gametrailers.com/player/46677.html

at 40-50 in one part you can see him spin very fast and at the same time hit with his fist. I know its small thing for someone but its just..blah..meh..lol.

 

If the games martial arts is about moves that are effective and could be used in real-life then its no problem, but if its some Chuck Norris roundhouse kicks then it really drops off the ledge. I know the use of elbows and so on which is effective. Even my friend uses his elbow to knock out guys when they start to piss him off in bar. :D

[Zoma]

Just remember, this is a hollywood based Spy RPG game. Hence you see all those cool moves, the mind boggling implementation of dual wielding SMGs, the possibility the gameplay utilizing infinite ammo for weapons.

 

So its understandable without being agreeable why Obsidian is choosing style over realism in executing their combat system. This isn't an ultra realistic Splinter Cell game afterall.

 

They say in that topic that the player will attack with real hand-to-hand moves but yet in the trailer he seems to spin and at the same time hit with his fist which just seems..dull?`

 

Read the CQC thread. Its stated that the progression of martial arts points will result in inclusion of new moves and longer combos. The repetitive moves shown in the video is likely to be the result of low skill input in the martial arts stats.

 

But to be realistic, it is not likely we are to expect insane quantity of martial arts moveset since CQC is not the main combat system in AP as it is not a kung fu game, but rather a choice between gunplay. So Obsidian will not have the resources to implement a super awesome martial arts game, thus its goal is to balance the sharpness of the combat system between gun play and CQC.

Edited March 18, 2009 by Zoma

[Cl_Flushentityhero]

I agree with the original poster, mostly.

 

My main disagreement is that there are American Kenpoists who are (note the lack of a hypothetical phrasing) very dangerous in a "real fight," but that's because they use strategies appropriate for the situation. Pummeling isn't a one-size-fits-all approach (as no such thing exists in MA). The takedowns look cool, but how viable is it tor really pull them off? I cite the first Riddick game in which counters were arguably the coolest part of the game, yet I can count the number of times I pulled them off on one hand. I'm sure AP wouldn't be that bad, but would the takedowns mostly just be a reward for stealth?

[Fisherman]

I agree with the original poster, mostly.

 

My main disagreement is that there are American Kenpoists who are (note the lack of a hypothetical phrasing) very dangerous in a "real fight," but that's because they use strategies appropriate for the situation. Pummeling isn't a one-size-fits-all approach (as no such thing exists in MA). The takedowns look cool, but how viable is it tor really pull them off? I cite the first Riddick game in which counters were arguably the coolest part of the game, yet I can count the number of times I pulled them off on one hand. I'm sure AP wouldn't be that bad, but would the takedowns mostly just be a reward for stealth?

I would mostly like to see disarming and yes takedowns are pretty hard to do IRL, but if you're fast and strong its easy. It all depends on the situation. I'd just want to see the player using some useful and effective moves wheter or not its about using his elbows or few kicks - just not Chuck Norris, please.

[Cl_Flushentityhero]

Btw, in case there was any confusion, I segued from real-life talk to game talk in the middle of that paragraph.

[J.E. Sawyer]

Takedowns in AP only occur when the enemy is in one of two states:

 

* Unaware of Mike's presence.

* Stunned.

 

I think Mike only ever uses two kicks. One is the flying knee and the other is (IIRC) a straight kick used to push the target away. There may be some low kicks, but I don't remember anything TKD-ish going on.

 

Something that even a real agent would use. Something that they train you in USMC for example.

The reality of unarmed lethal combat is often painful, awkward brawling leading to exhausting grappling and grisly death over the course of several minutes. And that's assuming that one of the participants doesn't have a friend nearby to just put a bullet in the other person's brain or stab them in the kidney. I understand the desire for realism, but we all draw the line somewhere.

[Fisherman]

Takedowns in AP only occur when the enemy is in one of two states:

 

* Unaware of Mike's presence.

* Stunned.

 

I think Mike only ever uses two kicks. One is the flying knee and the other is (IIRC) a straight kick used to push the target away. There may be some low kicks, but I don't remember anything TKD-ish going on.

 

Something that even a real agent would use. Something that they train you in USMC for example.

The reality of unarmed lethal combat is often painful, awkward brawling leading to exhausting grappling and grisly death over the course of several minutes. And that's assuming that one of the participants doesn't have a friend nearby to just put a bullet in the other person's brain or stab them in the kidney. I understand the desire for realism, but we all draw the line somewhere.

Well I can understand that. In the other hand have you (the devs) thought about the weapons skill system?

From what I've heard its based on damage instead of accuracy - when it should be other way around.

[Calax]

Just gonna say that most real fights don't have any sort of martial arts to them. Or if they do it's all happening so fast that you don't see stuff very quickly. I mean school yard fights that I saw were usually over in 5 seconds as the guy who landed the first hit just beat the crap out of the other guy.

 

Now things are probably different with spys but I don't think that a fist fight between spys would be flashy or long. I understand that the devs wanted flashy (I actually agree with them), but I don't expect there to be much in the way of hand to hand in the game (as it's just easier to start blowing people away with gunz).

[Joseph Bulock]

Just gonna say that most real fights don't have any sort of martial arts to them. Or if they do it's all happening so fast that you don't see stuff very quickly. I mean school yard fights that I saw were usually over in 5 seconds as the guy who landed the first hit just beat the crap out of the other guy.

 

Now things are probably different with spys but I don't think that a fist fight between spys would be flashy or long. I understand that the devs wanted flashy (I actually agree with them), but I don't expect there to be much in the way of hand to hand in the game (as it's just easier to start blowing people away with gunz).

 

Those sound like sucker punch or lucky punch situations. Fights between two people who know what they're doing that don't have one guy getting a lucky shot in can take a very long time, and are not particularly exciting. I mean, as a fight enthusiast, I would love to see a game that just tried to capture the feel of a real fight but A) it would have a really small market B) be really broken in terms of balance C) and would likely have some really nasty control issues do to the fact that people fighting do a lot of different things.

[Tigranes]

I mean, as a fight enthusiast,

 

What are you doing to my children!

[Cl_Flushentityhero]

Takedowns in AP only occur when the enemy is in one of two states:

 

* Unaware of Mike's presence.

* Stunned.

 

How does one stun an enemy?

 

The reality of unarmed lethal combat is often painful, awkward brawling leading to exhausting grappling and grisly death over the course of several minutes. And that's assuming that one of the participants doesn't have a friend nearby to just put a bullet in the other person's brain or stab them in the kidney. I understand the desire for realism, but we all draw the line somewhere.

 

. . . it depends. Either way, why draw it there as opposed to somewhere else? Even Bond has taken a turn for the gritty.

[Calax]

Just gonna say that most real fights don't have any sort of martial arts to them. Or if they do it's all happening so fast that you don't see stuff very quickly. I mean school yard fights that I saw were usually over in 5 seconds as the guy who landed the first hit just beat the crap out of the other guy.

 

Now things are probably different with spys but I don't think that a fist fight between spys would be flashy or long. I understand that the devs wanted flashy (I actually agree with them), but I don't expect there to be much in the way of hand to hand in the game (as it's just easier to start blowing people away with gunz).

 

Those sound like sucker punch or lucky punch situations. Fights between two people who know what they're doing that don't have one guy getting a lucky shot in can take a very long time, and are not particularly exciting. I mean, as a fight enthusiast, I would love to see a game that just tried to capture the feel of a real fight but A) it would have a really small market B) be really broken in terms of balance C) and would likely have some really nasty control issues do to the fact that people fighting do a lot of different things.

I guess that's the problem with real fights, they A) do too much damage and B) are always unbalanced.

 

One guy I know broke three fingers and his nose and got KO'd but still won the fight (because he got KO'd last )

[Cl_Flushentityhero]

I mean, as a fight enthusiast, I would love to see a game that just tried to capture the feel of a real fight but A) it would have a really small market B) be really broken in terms of balance C) and would likely have some really nasty control issues do to the fact that people fighting do a lot of different things.

 

Is reality actually all that unbalanced? Even within the rather limited arena of MMA, you can see a variety of techniques and strategies employed successfully.

[mingoran]

D) It's an action-rpg and not an action shooter.

 

Exploration, chance and character development are much more important than making a good shooter.

[Cl_Flushentityhero]

Exploration?

[WILL THE ALMIGHTY]

Exploration is good for sandbox and pure RPGs.

[mingoran]

Didn't they say that locations are going to be big?

Edited March 27, 2009 by mingoran

[Cl_Flushentityhero]

Didn't they say that locations are going to be big?

 

It's possible they did, though I'll believe it when I see it.

[Goran]

Exploration is good for sandbox and pure RPGs.

 

Exploration is always welcome. Deus Ex is an action-RPG and its exploration is incredible. I hope that each city in AP will be huge. It's not many-square-miles sandbox city, it's level depth and complexity, that gives you freedom to explore.

[Joseph Bulock]

I mean, as a fight enthusiast, I would love to see a game that just tried to capture the feel of a real fight but A) it would have a really small market B) be really broken in terms of balance C) and would likely have some really nasty control issues do to the fact that people fighting do a lot of different things.

 

Is reality actually all that unbalanced? Even within the rather limited arena of MMA, you can see a variety of techniques and strategies employed successfully.

 

MMA is not a real fight. MMA has a ton of rules that allow fighters to actually have careers of any length.