Mass Effect 2 to appear in GDC

[Llyranor]

I sometimes post at the Codex too (lol).

 

Is Gromnie undermining my credibility as a developer???

 

(BTW, if you guys want sensible game discussion, join THE GAME FORUM, now with free membership! PSP - plus more! You also get free flash games and contests. Click here)

 

EDIT: Oh, right, right. On-topic. I will rent ME2.

Edited January 12, 2009 by Llyranor

[Montgomery Markland]

I sometimes post at the Codex too (lol).

 

Is Gromnie undermining my credibility as a developer???

 

(BTW, if you guys want sensible game discussion, join THE GAME FORUM, now with free membership! PSP - plus more! You also get free flash games and contests. Click here[/u

 

EDIT: Oh, right, right. On-topic. I will rent ME2.

 

I'll likely buy ME2. I enjoyed the last two-thirds of ME a lot.

[Llyranor]

You need to edit my quote so that it looks like I provide a link to THE GAME FORUM, when in fact it's really just words being underlined to make it seem like a link, but if you just leave it like that, people will see through my clever ruse and won't start fruitlessly clicking on my linking and get mad for good laughs, I guess all this scheming really did sound better in my head but please edit the quote and then I can edit this post too so that it'll look like we never had this conversation, so people will start clicking on my link that's not really a link.

 

Anyhow, I liked ME1 enough (particularly the ending) that I'll want to play ME2, but disliked enough elements about it that it probably won't be worth more than a rental or two for me.

[Maria Caliban]

ME 2 will likely be better than ME 1. I liked ME 1 enough to play it at 3 FPS and I'm a fan of BioWare, so I'll likely buy the game when it comes out for PC.

[Montgomery Markland]

You need to edit my quote so that it looks like I provide a link to THE GAME FORUM, when in fact it's really just words being underlined to make it seem like a link, but if you just leave it like that, people will see through my clever ruse and won't start fruitlessly clicking on my linking and get mad for good laughs, I guess all this scheming really did sound better in my head but please edit the quote and then I can edit this post too so that it'll look like we never had this conversation, so people will start clicking on my link that's not really a link.

 

Anyhow, I liked ME1 enough (particularly the ending) that I'll want to play ME2, but disliked enough elements about it that it probably won't be worth more than a rental or two for me.

 

Try this link.

[Rhomal]

My primary point is that if the reasonable people (including developers) post objective stuff, then the unreasonable people (trolls) will be drowned out.

 

I can't force other people to post. But I can choose to either post or not. If I abdicate my responsibility to contribute to a civil society on the Internet, then I forfeit my right to complain when the environment for discourse about game development is suboptimal. I have control over myself. I can't control other people. Therefore, I choose to post, regardless of whether or not some meaningless, frustrated troll flames me.

 

There are some great quotes that relates to this phenomenon:

 

"All that is necessary for the triumph of evil is that good men do nothing." (Edmund Burke)

 

Touche, my friend, touche.

 

Even if the post wasn't to me I concede the point I made previously. Hard to dispute what you have said. (I think trolls will be trolls and as grom does try to spin a devs own words to 'say' something else but you can't succeed if you do not try)

[Calax]

There's nothing released about the possible stories of ME2/3 right? I have an impression that ME1 basically involved thwarting the rise of some (possibly ancient) evil race/civilisation/whatnot, which would probably mean (a) that evil was just the tip of the iceberg and there's more, or (b) there is another but related type of threat. In these kind of trilogies you'd normally have a relatively self-contained story in the first iteration, then a more linked one in the second and third... someone who's played the game tell me, though.

 

 

 

Every 50,000 a race of machines enters the galaxy and harvests all advanced organic life. ME 1 has Shepard learn this and defeat their harbinger. In terms of the story, it

[Tigranes]

Sounds like your typical (thus decent) sci fi, though the bit about the easiest option is clever.

 

Did ME1 elaborate on why

they want to kill everything? Supremacy?

 

[DeathScepter]

an ulimate form of Darwinism and they love killing things and lesser lifeforms...............Think of a massive army of Hk-47 that have ship for bodies but not as cool.

 

 

 

Killing Meatbags is what they want and total elimation of all meatbags is not what they want. They want enough meatbags to surive so they can kill them too once they are higher levels.

[Calax]

Sounds like your typical (thus decent) sci fi, though the bit about the easiest option is clever.

 

Did ME1 elaborate on why

they want to kill everything? Supremacy?

Nope. I think they left that for the sequels to follow up on.

 

In responce to Scepter:

Not really.

 

 

I'm running entirely off memory here but, They don't leave anything behind that is capable of using tools. If they were to hit right now all that would be left is plants and bugs. One of the points that is mentioned when you first find out about Sovereign is that their motives wouldn't be fathomable to anything with such a "small" view of the world (lifetime wise, the Reapers are essentially a sentient race of machines who live for EONS). Also, the Geth worship the Reapers as the pinnacle of the machine's evolution.

 

Personally I would love to see more info about the Geth, A race of machines that were created by the Quarians and ended up rebelling to the point where the Quarians no longer have a homeland, instead they live in a HUGE flotilla of patchwork ships. The backlash of the geth rebellion was so much that all AI research and programming was outlawed. Mass Effect instead has "Virtual Intelligence" interfaces that act more like a data terminal with a face. Honestly I think the story guys at Bioware went overboard in creating the universe of mass effect. Yhatzee touched on this in his review, but the guys designing the backround world had SO much detail in how things work. Including how Asarii reproduce (they join their nervous system with the creature they want to act as "father" and take a snapshot of the genetics and electrical systems... I think), How the Mass Effect occurs (basically it drops a GIANT mass infront of the ship and slingshots the vessel over it at incredible speed), how weapons work (the guns manufacture their own ammunition and then act as what we commonly refer to as gauss rifles), shields, ship drives, governmental bodies, the whole nine yards.

Edited January 12, 2009 by Calax

[Maria Caliban]

Sounds like your typical (thus decent) sci fi, though the bit about the easiest option is clever.

 

Did ME1 elaborate on why

they want to kill everything? Supremacy?

 

Nope.

 

 

My own theory is that they use biological creatures as processing plants. Element zero, the basis for all the cool, science fiction powers in ME, builds up in organics. That

[Aristes]

I've got a different take, MM.

 

I think gaming forums (or is that fora? Someone corrected me on that subject a while back) are basically an entity apart from game development. Can the two meet and impact one another? Sure. ... But even a forum with draconian rules harshly enforced is going to fall prey to off color and off topic comments. So, Crusade for truth all you want, but the impact will at best be uncertain in the grand scheme of game design. I mean, sure, if a movement in the boards gains enough steam, maybe the devs will nod to it and maybe not. Depends on the devs, I'm sure. What they shouldn't do is let online arguments have more than fleeting influence on the design because the people on gaming forums are crazy. Look, this Gromnir guy, whose posts I've been reading for some time as I've lurked here, is one of the most eloquent and intelligent posters and he's clearly insane.

 

I don't trust the devs worth a damn when it comes to giving anything I say more than a glance. Sometimes, if I'm to be honest with myself, my posts aren't even worth the first glance. So the way I see these boards is as an entity in and of themselves. Ideas and thoughts and opinions from all sorts of folks enter the pot and sometimes the stew is tasty and sometimes it's ****. If it's tasty, maybe some of those ideas make it into a game. Most of the time you're just wiping **** stew off of your face. Fine by me. I respect devs who come here and play with us and have a bite of stew.

 

For that reason, I like J.E. more than a lot of developers. For one thing, he's willing to come here and taste a lot of crappy stew in order maybe to inspire a new recipe. He's also honest, and I like that. I mean, in the short time I've been posting here, I've disagreed with the guy on a lot of issues, but he's willing to come here and tell it straight. I sometimes think that's not entirely wise, but I appreciate it just the same. In an online forum, trust is the biggest step to establishing credibility.

 

So, I don't care about the Crusade in the Codex. I don't know those guys from adam and I couldn't care less where you go or not. I mean, I appreciate the devs who post here, but I'm not going to lose sleep over it either. However, you're not imparting the golden truth when you post anywhere. You're just adding a few ingredients into the next batch of stew. I hope they're fresh, 'cause the last batch was really ****ty.

 

As usual, I was lurking in this thread and the biggest thing that comes out is that the original poster is a tad hostile to ME. Maybe a little, at least. He's the real crusader here. It really doesn't look like the point of this thread was ever level design. It's an ME bashing thread. Not that I care, mind you. I haven't played the game. I just popped in for a quick taste of the stew.

[Tigranes]

Where do we keep coming up with these nonsensical Crusade theories, anyway?

 

Calax: Yeah, there's a lot of interesting backstory stuff in there. I guess they were excited, and also wanted to make sure they ahve some good ground in place for a trilogy.

[Calax]

Where do we keep coming up with these nonsensical Crusade theories, anyway?

 

Calax: Yeah, there's a lot of interesting backstory stuff in there. I guess they were excited, and also wanted to make sure they ahve some good ground in place for a trilogy.

from what I've heard, if they hadn't gotten the Star Wars license they would have gone with a Mass Effect MMO, so they probably were trying to lay the ground work for that too.

 

Seriously Tig, if you are interested in the backstory visit the Wiki

 

Most of it comes from the in game codex. Including the primary reason for a Krogan dying being death by gunshot.

[Meshugger]

I said it once and i will say it again:

If it turns out that the 'race of machines' were run by a proto-human society, killing everything organic to sustain their own 'immortality'. What is then left of this 'race' is a lonely child, that has an age of several millennia, but is sustaining his or hers immortality through eating other organics. He or she just wants be loved ofcourse.

 

 

If true, then i call shenanigans.

[Nightshape]

The best level designers cooperatively partner with artists to create aesthetically unified sections of game where the visuals and the gameplay reinforce each other.

 

Where I come from, you better have an understanding of both visual and play aesthetics or I wouldn't want you as a level designer on my team.

 

In the age of asset outsourcing (something which is becoming more and more common for larger companies), you can't always have this perfect desire scenario of artist and level designer working as one unit.

 

This is why good solid art direction is so important, and it takes a certain level of skill to achieve the desired results when it's very plausable that the artist may be hundred even thousands of miles away from where the level designer is situation.

 

High production values coupled with solid, clear and concise art direction, along with excellent white boxing of play area's can produce an excellent result.

 

Documentation and communication! With the art direction being a thread stitching everything togeather.

[Wrath of Dagon]

Honestly I think the story guys at Bioware went overboard in creating the universe of mass effect. Yhatzee touched on this in his review, but the guys designing the backround world had SO much detail in how things work. Including how Asarii reproduce (they join their nervous system with the creature they want to act as "father" and take a snapshot of the genetics and electrical systems... I think), How the Mass Effect occurs (basically it drops a GIANT mass infront of the ship and slingshots the vessel over it at incredible speed), how weapons work (the guns manufacture their own ammunition and then act as what we commonly refer to as gauss rifles), shields, ship drives, governmental bodies, the whole nine yards.

No, they didn't go overboard. The problem was once they came up with all that, all they did was write it down in the Codex, instead of implementing it into gameplay, story, level design, etc. I want to play a game, not read a fake encyclopedia.

 

Edit: Also it takes a lot longer than 50,000 years to evolve from a bug to a space travelling civilization.

Edited January 12, 2009 by Wrath of Dagon

[Morgoth]

Despite the shortcomings in art direction choice and level design, Mass Effect was still a very enjoyable quality product. I'm pretty optimistic that ME2 will be a major improvement, just like BG2 was a major improvement over BG1.

Edited January 12, 2009 by Morgoth

[Wrath of Dagon]

As usual, I was lurking in this thread and the biggest thing that comes out is that the original poster is a tad hostile to ME. Maybe a little, at least. He's the real crusader here. It really doesn't look like the point of this thread was ever level design. It's an ME bashing thread. Not that I care, mind you. I haven't played the game. I just popped in for a quick taste of the stew.

No, the point of the thread was to bash the level design. Of course level design is pretty central to the quality of the rest of the game. It's true that most of everything else in the game is bad also, so I suppose I could've opened a separate thread to bash each of the other aspects, but that's hardly worth doing, and it's level design that's in the news right now. Also I don't know how attentively you've being lurking, but I've made what I consider some important points about good level design, as far as having a central theme and so on, and a developer even made his own comments on some of that, so my purpose was not to express hostility but have a discussion about good game design, which is a subject that interests me.

[Wrath of Dagon]

Despite the shortcomings in art direction choice and level design, Mass Effect was still a very enjoyable quality product. I'm pretty optimistic that ME2 will be a major improvement, just like BG2 was a major improvement over BG1.

Well, the DLC they released is apparently just another Uncharted World, and none of the other promised DLC materialized so far, so it looks to me like things are still rotten in Denmark. Thus I'm not terribly optimistic about ME2.

[Aristes]

Oh, I've been lurking enough to see all these arguments unfold. I haven't posted previously because the information you guys have is so game specific that I didn't want to intrude with commentary based on nothing more than conjecture and reading all the comments. I've actually been lurking in quite a few threads regarding ME. I haven't bought it yet. It's not that I've decided that it isn't good. There's just enough doubt based on what I've been reading that I've always opted for other games that seemed like surer bets. Please, continue to argue your points. I'll probably just lurk and read.

[Morgoth]

Despite the shortcomings in art direction choice and level design, Mass Effect was still a very enjoyable quality product. I'm pretty optimistic that ME2 will be a major improvement, just like BG2 was a major improvement over BG1.

Well, the DLC they released is apparently just another Uncharted World, and none of the other promised DLC materialized so far, so it looks to me like things are still rotten in Denmark. Thus I'm not terribly optimistic about ME2.

But the DLC stuff is made by the Live Team, not the actual development team. But we will see.

[Hurlshort]

I just have a hard time taking Wrath of Dagon's posts very seriously. It just seems like all the flaws you are pointing out existed on some level in KotOR, a game you seem to put on a pedestal.

[Nightshape]

No, the point of the thread was to bash the level design. Of course level design is pretty central to the quality of the rest of the game. It's true that most of everything else in the game is bad also, so I suppose I could've opened a separate thread to bash each of the other aspects, but that's hardly worth doing, and it's level design that's in the news right now. Also I don't know how attentively you've being lurking, but I've made what I consider some important points about good level design, as far as having a central theme and so on, and a developer even made his own comments on some of that, so my purpose was not to express hostility but have a discussion about good game design, which is a subject that interests me.

 

Firstly, you feel that the levels are missing a central theme, it worked fine for me as I certainly didn't feel that way when I was playing, but you're entitled to feel that way. Arguing aesthetics is hard, as it's highly subjective, and doesn't really lead anywhere, sure we could use words such as consistance, focus, empty, unpopulated etc... But that's only half the story, I certainly feel that the levels still retain a focus on gameplay regardless of aesthetics.

 

I've only entered into this conversation to attempt to instill some clarity, the package as a whole is achieved via art direction, level designers, and environment artists. Simply saying the level design is bad appears like an attack on the level designer, but with further investigation, it's the product as a whole you're unhappy with.

 

Also "Montgomery Markland", is not the only developer to have responded to you, he is the only Obsidian Developer, who has responded.

[Nightshape]

I just have a hard time taking Wrath of Dagon's posts very seriously. It just seems like all the flaws you are pointing out existed on some level in KotOR, a game you seem to put on a pedestal.

 

I do detect a certain amount of bia's.