Mass Effect 2 to appear in GDC

[Kaftan Barlast]

From where I come from, level design is all about gameplay and function. You have concept art detailing the general look and specific locations or vistas of a level, but the level designer himself is not an artist; he's a toolkit-monkey. His job is to implement assets, encounters and events into an area to make it fun to play.. oops! ran out of time BRB

[Morgoth]

The best levels a created by those who do both jobs.

[Kaftan Barlast]

The best levels a created by those who do both jobs.

 

No, they're not. Definently not. Its two entirely different skillsets to know how to pace a level, and artisty stuff like how to make a good concrete material.

 

The best level, to use a truism, is one that has been playtested thouroughly and allowed to grow based on a cycle of redesign and testing until all kinks have been worked out and everything is optimal.

[Wrath of Dagon]

This approach to building levels strives to integrate the Design, Art, and Production teams such that the highest-risk level-creation issues are addressed early in the development cycle.

From the second link I posted.

 

I guess now is a good time to post what went wrong on the Citadel:

 

Howdy. I

Edited January 10, 2009 by Wrath of Dagon

[Morgoth]

The best levels a created by those who do both jobs.

 

No, they're not. Definently not. Its two entirely different skillsets to know how to pace a level, and artisty stuff like how to make a good concrete material.

 

The best level, to use a truism, is one that has been playtested thouroughly and allowed to grow based on a cycle of redesign and testing until all kinks have been worked out and everything is optimal.

Yeah, so? Why can't someone have both skillsets? I remember many levels from Unreal 2, System Shock 2, Thief series, SWAT 4 etc. that were among the best maps I can remember, and many of these were created by designers who also build their meshes in Max.

Unlike that soulless fabric-work like garbage I see so often in modern games.

[Montgomery Markland]

The best levels a created by those who do both jobs.

 

No, they're not. Definently not.

 

It's silly to say which hypothetical level designer definitely designs the best levels, so I'm not going to enter into such a discussion.

 

On the other hand, as someone who has both designed levels for Aliens and produced levels for Aliens, I would say that it is indisputably true that you are likely to get better results in your levels if you consider aesthetic and visual elements in your design.

 

Level designers are not toolkit-monkeys, theoreticians or gameplay purists that push grey boxes around in a prototype. Level designers are the rubber-meets-the-road nexus of 100,000 different elements that make up a great level.

 

The best level designers cooperatively partner with artists to create aesthetically unified sections of game where the visuals and the gameplay reinforce each other.

 

Where I come from, you better have an understanding of both visual and play aesthetics or I wouldn't want you as a level designer on my team.

[Hurlshort]

I call shenanigans on on Wrath of Dangon's supposed writer response. Patrick Weekes? Do you really think a lot of Bioware writers are reading through comments on rock paper shotgun?

 

I also think you are overanalysing this stuff. I don't pick apart the plots of action movies for the same reason.

[Montgomery Markland]

how to get around console tech limitations

 

Memory limitations on a console definitely require a more rigorously reviewed and considered level design.

 

Savvy designers and artists develop sleight of hand tricks to handle particular problems.

 

Generally, you have to throttle the rate at which data rolls in by stretching the frame-distance a player must travel. Elevators, airlocks, hallway switchbacks, virtual switchbacks all can provide the necessary expansion of frame-distance because all of them slow down the player's progression through the game.

 

I don't see why a Bioware writer wouldn't post on a given forum. I post on RPGCodex all the time. The dude in question is listed in the Mass Effect credits.

[Sammy Chung]

I call shenanigans on on Wrath of Dangon's supposed writer response. Patrick Weekes? Do you really think a lot of Bioware writers are reading through comments on rock paper shotgun?

 

Given the fact that he linked to the RockPaperShotgun article on his blog I don't see why it can't be him.

[Hurlshort]

I call shenanigans on on Wrath of Dangon's supposed writer response. Patrick Weekes? Do you really think a lot of Bioware writers are reading through comments on rock paper shotgun?

 

Given the fact that he linked to the RockPaperShotgun article on his blog I don't see why it can't be him.

 

Ok, I'm willing to give it the benefit of the doubt. Thanks for the blog link.

[Gromnir]

how to get around console tech limitations

 

 

 

I don't see why a Bioware writer wouldn't post on a given forum. I post on RPGCodex all the time. The dude in question is listed in the Mass Effect credits.

 

 

gaider posts at codex... Lord only knows why. am thinking that maybe it is some sorta understandable (if complete juvenile) impulse to play in the mud. by the same token, how many times has you seen chrisA actually post on this, the obsidian board? (most recent post: Jun 22 2006, 09:52 AM). heck, ask josh what happened when he posted his honest feelings 'bout wotc during iwd2 development... not that we is allowed to talk 'bout that. seriously, ask chrisA why he not post 'round obsidian and perhaps you get some answers, eh?

 

listen to what fans gotta say 'bout games is probable a good thing, but at some point you gotta do what you think is best, regardless o' the often irrational and typically contradictory demands and suggestions o' the fan base. have a genuine constructive discourse 'bout games on game boards is not a high percentage endeavour. also, sadly, the more well-known you becomes, the more likely your board comments is gonna be clumsily dissected: out of context statements show up on so-called news sites and used to "prove" that you or obsidian is the root of all evil, or a bunch o' nincompoops... or whatever.

 

am understanding why some developers might not wanna board post... don't see why you don't.

 

HA! Good Fun!

 

ps forgot to mention tim cain example. tim posted infrequent at troika boards, but when he did he typically came across as either a bit o' a buffoon, or as a complete jerk. perhaps tim were a swell and real smart guy, but his board personality were somewhat lacking. some people has a real difficult time writing their thoughts in relative short board posts. it were in tim's best interest to post as little as possible. is a few developers we has seen over the years that woulda' benefited from posting less... regardless o' how talented they might have been.

Edited January 11, 2009 by Gromnir

[Montgomery Markland]

am understanding why some developers might not wanna board post... don't see why you don't.

 

I'm not interested in ceding the gaming forums of the world to a cabal of trolls promoting an illogical tyranny of hyperbole.

 

Misinformation unchallenged becomes information.

[aries101]

The comment on Rock Paper Shotgun is from Patrick Weekes. He also sometimes posts at the Rpgwatch as does a Bioware developer called Stormwaltz.

Here is a short recap of Weekes' post during the last year:

 

http://www.rpgwatch.com/forums/search.php?searchid=560313

 

His last post is from March 13, 2008. Don't know what happened to him, though, Probably got moved to Dragon Age: Origins - busily working.

And Gaider sometimes post on the rpgcodex as well. Haven't seen him around the Codex in about half a year or so. He is probably busy writing for Dragon Age: Origins as well.

 

Stormwalts post about working for Bioware can be seen here:

 

http://www.rpgwatch.com/forums/showthread....#post1060923136

 

So, yes developers do read and post on game forums. When they're not busy making games that is.

[Gromnir]

am understanding why some developers might not wanna board post... don't see why you don't.

 

I'm not interested in ceding the gaming forums of the world to a cabal of trolls promoting an illogical tyranny of hyperbole.

 

Misinformation unchallenged becomes information.

 

 

so you win in a verbal battle with the codex? what has you won? many (most?) o' those you has beaten will not recognize your victory... and even if you does emerge clear winner, that won't stop or slow misinformation one bit. avoid codex and you is ceding mythical territory to irrelevant tyrants. why does you care what they say at codex or elsewhere? plug your finger in dike trying to stop/slow your perceived leaks o' misinformation? heck, is arguable that developers arguing with those midget tyrants is what makes 'em relevant. the fact that gaider and josh and others respond to Gromnir is part o' what makes our posts relevant to many. on the other hand, if we were complete ignored or simply laughed away...

 

the real hyperbole may be attributing real power to these boards. a large % game purchasers never read these boards. another % o' game purchasers largely ignore posts not specific related to game features. most of what occurs on these boards is simply noise. developer boards is a relative cheap way to advertise game and let fans do work of building interest in games.

 

and yeah, to a certain degree it is true that misinformation can become fact... but far less than is implied, and very little that is meaningful. fergie, for instance, tried to convince fans that TotL was not released as an apology/bandage for HoW. for sake of argument, let us say that he were telling the truth. what difference? is probable that such is reason that fergie didn't fight very hard to convince fans that TotL weren't an apology/bandage, 'cause in long run what would be difference? those who hated HoW would still hate it. Those who liked HoW would still like it. fergie set record straight 'bought motivation behind TotL development? what is the point in the long run?

 

another example? the biowarians, for whatever reason, insist that Jade Empires were a great commercial success and fulfilled expectations. your own josh sawyer has been somewhat unconvinced by bio claims o' je success. fans seems split on the issue. who is vol or pidesco 'posed to believe? chris priestly and josh sawyers is both posting to dispel misinformation, right? also, am not sure how many times we seen developers post at codex trying to convince fans there that in spite o' the Big Love for fallout, the game weren't a particularly big commercial winner. fo (the original) did moderate well, but the number o' units sold during the all-important first 2 quarters were hardly eye-popping... and the steady sales afterward weren't hardly 'nuff to keep a major developer or publisher in the business o' game making.

 

so what? who cares? convince the regular board posters at game sites that je or fo were a commercial success is meaningful... how? is most potential future purchasers of bio games gonna actual care that je sold well or failed? convince codexians that fo were actually a niche game were meaningful to whom it long run?

 

noise. most o' this is noise. developers posting for entertainment or advertising? yeah, that makes sense. post as some kinda crusade against perceived falsehood?

 

*chuckle*

 

you is gonna be a busy guy if you is honest trying to bring objective truth to the internet.

 

regardless, if you still honest cannot see why a reasonable developer would avoid these boards (the original issue) we cannot help you... perhaps chrisA can.

 

HA! Good Fun!

 

ps also, 'cause it bears repeating, when josh attempted to dispel the misinformation surrounding wotc involvement with iwd2 development, he got muzzled... fast. you is an employee of a game developer. your devotion to truth is a grand thing, just so long as it doesn't hurt obsidian or a publisher or some other influential entity.

Edited January 11, 2009 by Gromnir

[Stephen Amber]

ask josh what happened when he posted his honest feelings 'bout wotc during iwd2 development

 

Didn't help that some of the forum faithful over-reacted to those ranger/dual wield comments and brought the argument over to the wotc boards themselves. That's what you call rabble rousing...

[Gromnir]

ask josh what happened when he posted his honest feelings 'bout wotc during iwd2 development

 

Didn't help that some of the forum faithful over-reacted to those ranger/dual wield comments and brought the argument over to the wotc boards themselves. That's what you call rabble rousing...

 

josh were pretty cheesed off himself. the tone of his posts regarding wotc involvement regarding iwd2 were not simply informational, eh? to a certain degree the rabble were roused by josh. even so, josh were simply being honest as he saw it. should he apologize for being passionate about game development? *shrug* regardless, we were able to see first hand what happens when a developer's truth is antagonistic to aims o' his employer.

 

furthermore, am not sure that a fan ever has to apologize for making an hones /good faith complaint. can fans go too far? sure. but wouldn't it be hypocritical to berate fans for crusading against misinformation?

 

HA! Good Fun!

[Rhomal]

I don't see why a Bioware writer wouldn't post on a given forum. I post on RPGCodex all the time. The dude in question is listed in the Mass Effect credits.

 

Let me first start off saying I greatly enjoy reading your posts and insight. Anytime a dev can share his thoughts on a forum its a win-win for everyone IMO.

 

And while I appreciate & respect your view, and I agree actually, about if you let trolls take over then fiction becomes 'fact' and we should do what we can to stop that. However RPGCodex is, sadly, a lost cause in that fight. As even the mods and admin there are some of the biggest trolls and bile tossers. Its clearly a free for all and they don't care about the difference between hyperbole, fiction, BS or fact. As they all see it as more or less the same. *shrugs* Again I agree, generally we should work to keep gaming forums to a certain standard. However in some cases its pointless, as in this case as what those kids over there thrive on. You don't got to rpgcodex for sane, intellectual, mature discussion or debate. Kids go there most times then not to jump into a flame war or to spout off on a topic they are completely ignorant in. Not have a civil, thoughtful exchange.

 

I see it as the first ep of the new Battlestar Galactica, where the new president says to commander adama 'why am I the only one who sees this, the war is over. We lost'. And just like the fleet in BSG thankfully there are other places to go and call home

 

None the less, great to see you posting and look forward to more!

[Montgomery Markland]

so you win in a verbal battle with the codex? what has you won? many (most?) o' those you has beaten will not recognize your victory... and even if you does emerge clear winner, that won't stop or slow misinformation one bit. avoid codex and you is ceding mythical territory to irrelevant tyrants. why does you care what they say at codex or elsewhere? plug your finger in dike trying to stop/slow your perceived leaks o' misinformation? heck, is arguable that developers arguing with those midget tyrants is what makes 'em relevant. the fact that gaider and josh and others respond to Gromnir is part o' what makes our posts relevant to many. on the other hand, if we were complete ignored or simply laughed away...

 

You're treating forums as some monolithic entity. I'm not trying to "win the Codex," nor am I trying to "win" anything.

 

I don't care about the trolls and rabble-rousers. I care about, in the words of Richard Nixon, the great silent majority.

 

The majority of people reading on forums don't post and a lot of them aren't even registered. These reasonable folks, combined with the well-reasoned active posters of a given forum, are the people who should be provided useful, objective information to offset the spew of nonsense that oftentimes accompanies game discussions on game boards.

 

It doesn't cost me much to provide some in my spare time. I'm not attempting to make the Internet safe for my grandmother. I just post what I believe whenever I think posting it is worthwhile. Things aren't any more complex or involved than that.

 

Also, you cite a bunch of specific examples of people posting things on forums in response to a particular issue or what-have-you. I don't know anything about any of those instances. I didn't work at Interplay or Black Isle. I didn't work at Obsidian when any of these alleged incidents took place, and I don't know anything about them, nor do they have anything to do with me posting.

 

None the less, great to see you posting and look forward to more!

 

Thanks and no problem.

[Gromnir]

eh? sure sounded like YOU were the guy building up the codex. reason you post is to bring truth where there is misinformation, 'cause misinformation can become truth? Gromnir is the guy who said that YOU is the guy giving them far too much legitimacy. codex and other boards has very little inherent legitimacy... and only the occasional Developer post can change that reality.

 

and yeah, you is trying to win. if the other guy is spreading misinformation, you want your truth to prevail, no? is what you said, not Gromnir. don't be afraid to admit that you indulge in a bit o' the adversarial... as a Crusader for truth you better at least be honest with self, no? call it the Marketplace of Ideals or the Adversarial Process or come up with your own spin... not matter. you submit your Truth in hopes that it will win with your silent majority.

 

...

 

you is kinda wishy-washy for a Crusader type.

 

*shrug*

 

 

"Also, you cite a bunch of specific examples of people posting things on forums in response to a particular issue or what-have-you. I don't know anything about any of those instances. I didn't work at Interplay or Black Isle. I didn't work at Obsidian when any of these alleged incidents took place, and I don't know anything about them, nor do they have anything to do with me posting"

 

again, "eh?"

 

it got plenty to do with you. if you is gonna put on cape and Crusade for truth, you better recognize that there is things you cannot be truthful 'bout. you work for obsidian, and regardless o' your beliefs, you is unlikely to be stoopid enough or naive enough to ignore common sense. correct all misconceptions? HA! am gonna call bs. our examples is specific obsidan examples, so they got plenty to do with you. you work for obsidan, and you not seem like a complete retard. clearly you understand that you cannot dispel all message board generated or proliferated misconceptions. yeah, your limited awareness o' what has gone on at obsidian in the pat means that you cannot speak to the examples we cite above, but neither should any reasonable adult be surprised that such stuff has occurred.

 

in any event this all complete ignores the original point YOU made. go figure. shouldn't be surprised. folks that complain 'bout logic and hyperbole is often the ones most likely to indulge... 'less you were trying to be ironic with the "I'm not interested in ceding the gaming forums of the world to a cabal of trolls promoting an illogical tyranny of hyperbole." bit. if you were being whimsical and Gromnir took serious, then Gromnir apologizes.

 

regardless, clearly there is reasons for reasonable developers to not get involved in board posting, and to pretend otherwise is curious.

 

oh, and just so you know, the silent majority doesn't spend much time at obsidian or codex... yet another reason why a reasonable developer might not feel like joining in to Fight The Good Fight.

 

your continued contributions will no doubt be appreciated, as is most developer posts.

 

HA! Good Fun!

[Volourn]

"Mass Effect is the probably shortest RPG I've ever played."

 

O RLY? Even shorter than FO? I doubt that. There are more than a few RPGs shorter than ME even cutting out optional content.

[Tigranes]

One day, Gromnir, 4too and Metadigital will join the same forum, and the world will never be the same again.

 

Jokes aside, let's perhaps return to our regularly scheduled programming (ME2). That applies to us all.

 

There's nothing released about the possible stories of ME2/3 right? I have an impression that ME1 basically involved thwarting the rise of some (possibly ancient) evil race/civilisation/whatnot, which would probably mean (a) that evil was just the tip of the iceberg and there's more, or (b) there is another but related type of threat. In these kind of trilogies you'd normally have a relatively self-contained story in the first iteration, then a more linked one in the second and third... someone who's played the game tell me, though.

[Pop]

Definitely (a). The ending is basically - people: "well done, you beat the evil machine!", Shepard: "There's more, and they're still coming." (Shepard storms off to somewhere)

[Maria Caliban]

There's nothing released about the possible stories of ME2/3 right? I have an impression that ME1 basically involved thwarting the rise of some (possibly ancient) evil race/civilisation/whatnot, which would probably mean (a) that evil was just the tip of the iceberg and there's more, or (b) there is another but related type of threat. In these kind of trilogies you'd normally have a relatively self-contained story in the first iteration, then a more linked one in the second and third... someone who's played the game tell me, though.

 

 

 

Every 50,000 a race of machines enters the galaxy and harvests all advanced organic life. ME 1 has Shepard learn this and defeat their harbinger. In terms of the story, it

[Wrath of Dagon]

The next episode is "Empire Strikes Back", followed by "Return of the Protheans"

[Montgomery Markland]

eh? sure sounded like YOU were the guy building up the codex. reason you post is to bring truth where there is misinformation, 'cause misinformation can become truth? Gromnir is the guy who said that YOU is the guy giving them far too much legitimacy. codex and other boards has very little inherent legitimacy... and only the occasional Developer post can change that reality.

 

and yeah, you is trying to win. if the other guy is spreading misinformation, you want your truth to prevail, no? is what you said, not Gromnir. don't be afraid to admit that you indulge in a bit o' the adversarial... as a Crusader for truth you better at least be honest with self, no? call it the Marketplace of Ideals or the Adversarial Process or come up with your own spin... not matter. you submit your Truth in hopes that it will win with your silent majority.

 

...

 

you is kinda wishy-washy for a Crusader type.

 

*shrug*

 

 

"Also, you cite a bunch of specific examples of people posting things on forums in response to a particular issue or what-have-you. I don't know anything about any of those instances. I didn't work at Interplay or Black Isle. I didn't work at Obsidian when any of these alleged incidents took place, and I don't know anything about them, nor do they have anything to do with me posting"

 

again, "eh?"

 

it got plenty to do with you. if you is gonna put on cape and Crusade for truth, you better recognize that there is things you cannot be truthful 'bout. you work for obsidian, and regardless o' your beliefs, you is unlikely to be stoopid enough or naive enough to ignore common sense. correct all misconceptions? HA! am gonna call bs. our examples is specific obsidan examples, so they got plenty to do with you. you work for obsidan, and you not seem like a complete retard. clearly you understand that you cannot dispel all message board generated or proliferated misconceptions. yeah, your limited awareness o' what has gone on at obsidian in the pat means that you cannot speak to the examples we cite above, but neither should any reasonable adult be surprised that such stuff has occurred.

 

in any event this all complete ignores the original point YOU made. go figure. shouldn't be surprised. folks that complain 'bout logic and hyperbole is often the ones most likely to indulge... 'less you were trying to be ironic with the "I'm not interested in ceding the gaming forums of the world to a cabal of trolls promoting an illogical tyranny of hyperbole." bit. if you were being whimsical and Gromnir took serious, then Gromnir apologizes.

 

regardless, clearly there is reasons for reasonable developers to not get involved in board posting, and to pretend otherwise is curious.

 

oh, and just so you know, the silent majority doesn't spend much time at obsidian or codex... yet another reason why a reasonable developer might not feel like joining in to Fight The Good Fight.

 

your continued contributions will no doubt be appreciated, as is most developer posts.

 

HA! Good Fun!

 

You are imputing intentions to me that I do not possess, nor proclaim. You are also spending a great deal of time discussing and claiming what I am. Conversely, I am not commenting on your character or intentions. I am offering my point-of-view and people can take it at face value or not. You are attempting to spin my statements into something they are not.

 

My primary point is that if the reasonable people (including developers) post objective stuff, then the unreasonable people (trolls) will be drowned out.

 

I can't force other people to post. But I can choose to either post or not. If I abdicate my responsibility to contribute to a civil society on the Internet, then I forfeit my right to complain when the environment for discourse about game development is suboptimal. I have control over myself. I can't control other people. Therefore, I choose to post, regardless of whether or not some meaningless, frustrated troll flames me.

 

There are some great quotes that relates to this phenomenon:

 

"All that is necessary for the triumph of evil is that good men do nothing." (Edmund Burke)

 

Obviously, I am not going to equate trolling and degrading a discussion board as "evil." The analogy is, however, sound.

 

I also don't have any problem with a lot of nonsense on forums. I read forums because they are funny. But when people say something that is patently untrue, it's worth responding. Also, I don't understand why you are talking like this is all about the RPG Codex. I simply referenced it in support of the idea that a developer from Bioware might post on Rock, Paper, Shotgun.

 

We can carry on this discussion in private messages if you like.