Recent Isareli military action in Gaza

[Gorgon]

If Israel is going to kill Hamas members one at a time they won't be able to keep up with the birthrate.

[Rostere]

Yes, they're not infinite, and their behavior has been modified in the past. When someone attacks you, you have to retaliate, that seems so obvious I don't see why I would have to defend that idea. Perhaps you think they should just accept their fate and agree to being murdered without protest, in which case there's really nothing left to discuss.

 

Are you also the kind of person who supports death penalty, and corporal punishment in schools? You know, "retaliation" is only a primitive instinct, if you would hit everybody back when they hit you we would have WW3 already. When someone attacks you, you should first think "why"? Yes, of course some kind of punishment is needed so that crime does not pay.

 

However a person who commits a crime without gaining something will obviously not stop because of common sense. Israel should strive to improve the living conditions for those in Gaza, so that they can see that cooperation pays off. You don't teach children to do right by beating them when they are wrong - if you act that way you'll only create a violent person.

[Wrath of Dagon]

These are not children they're dealing with. It's kind of hard to improve living conditions for someone trying to kill you. They tried to set up industrial zones etc, but of course any Israeli who tried to show up there recently would be instantly killed. You'll note the living conditions on the West Bank have improved significantly since PA decided to engage Israel peacefully.

[Volourn]

"you really think Hamas is in any danger of running out of militant leaders... "

 

No; but they do run out out of the ability to cause Isreal real damage. This is why there's this constant bombardment of rocket attacks followed Hamas 'wanting' peace, months go by, and then they start up again. Same thing will sadly happen here. Hamas is yelling no peace but as soon as they are damaged beyond ability to do anything they'll demand peace and start the process all over again.

 

It's also not up to Ireal to make Palestinian's lives better. That's Palestine including Hamas' job as an elected party. That said, it be nice if Isreal could help them out but then again Hamas and co don't want no stinkin' Jew to help them.

Edited December 30, 2008 by Volourn

[Gorgon]

It's also not up to Ireal to make Palestinian's lives better

 

You do realize that most of the Palestinian controlled areas are under embargo, who would want to invest in an area like that. The Palestinians scrape by any way they can or live on handouts, from Hamas or wherever they can. There is no making their lives better without a lasting peace.

 

The Palestinians want statehood as well as the land returned that Israel hogged with their settlement programmes before they will consider a peace. Those are reasonable demands, but why would Israel help build up a threat, easier just to live next to a giant refugee camp.

Edited December 31, 2008 by Gorgon

[Wrath of Dagon]

Hamas doesn't just want statehood or the settlement land. Their stated goal is complete destruction of Israel.

[Killian Kalthorne]

Hamas doesn't just want statehood or the settlement land. Their stated goal is complete destruction of Israel.

 

Yep, and Don Quixote keeps on fighting those giants.

[Rostere]

This is a good point. Hamas rockets killing Israeli civilians barely makes the news. Israel responds and the world laments.

 

The answer is simple: only 15 Israelis have been killed by rocket attacks (since 2002) while over 600 Palestinians have been killed by the Israeli military in Gaza in response to these attacks.

 

These are not children they're dealing with.

 

Tell that to the children being killed, and who watch their friends being killed, in both sides of this conflict. The violence has to stop if those are to get a chance to grow up to anything else than violent fanatics themselves.

Edited December 31, 2008 by Rostere

[Wrath of Dagon]

This is a good point. Hamas rockets killing Israeli civilians barely makes the news. Israel responds and the world laments.

 

The answer is simple: only 15 Israelis have been killed by rocket attacks (since 2002) while over 600 Palestinians have been killed by the Israeli military in Gaza in response to these attacks.

 

These are not children they're dealing with.

 

Tell that to the children being killed, and who watch their friends being killed, in both sides of this conflict. The violence has to stop if those are to get a chance to grow up to anything else than violent fanatics themselves.

As usual liberals display an awesome inability for logical reasoning. You were talking about dealing with children, and I answered in that context, now you completely change the subject to something else. And the issue is not just casualties, the issue is the whole Israeli population within the rockets' reach being terrorized daily. How would Sweden respond if Stockholm came under daily rocket attack? Did the grand hypocrites think that through? You're right, the violence must stop, and it will stop as soon as Hamas quits firing rockets at Israel.

 

Edit: And in case you're not following the news, Hamas rockets are getting longer range and more powerful. Is Israel supposed to wait until they have the same missiles as Hezbollah, so in the next outbreak they'll lose 140 people or more?

Edited December 31, 2008 by Wrath of Dagon

[Guard Dog]

Save your breath Dagon. Rostere and Gorgon are just displaying the typical condescending arrogance you find in people who are incapable of seeing beyond politically correct group think. The truth is you hit the nail on the head when you pointed out that they sleep every night without fear of rocket attacks on their homes. I am sure if there was a legitimate chance they could die from the cowardly attack of an implacable enemy they would be a little more sympathetic towards people who have an actual need to defend themselves.

[Wrath of Dagon]

More from Ralph Peters: http://www.armchairgeneral.com/the-guns-of...amas-reacts.htm

[Gorgon]

'Politically correct group think'. Do you really think I care whether my opinion agrees with some imaginary liberal agenda.

 

It's got nothing to do with refusing to face reality, if anything being forced to take sides makes people less able to find solutions. You gain no special insight from living under threat, but it's a good way to become part of the problem, if you are not careful.

[Killian Kalthorne]

I do consider myself a liberal, at least in most things, and I firmly believe that a nation has the right to defend itself from aggression from another power by any means it has in its arsenal. Hamas was attacking Israel. It does not matter if they were lobbing one rocket a week or 100 rockets an hour, they were attacking Israel. By rights, Israel has every right to fight back by any means necessary to eliminate Hamas as a threat. If that means pulverizing Hamas held territory till nothing larger than a pebble stands then so be it. If the people of Hamas didn't want Israel to attack them maybe they shouldn't have lobbed those rockets in the first place.

[Gorgon]

Aren't you confusing the Palestinian people with Hamas. Hamas draws strength from repeated violations against civilians, ensuring that however many are killed in these incursions, there will be 10 more to take their place.

 

Hamas cannot be eliminated with bullets anymore than can Al Kaida (will I ever remember how to spell that) You need to undermine their support, or offer a way for them to change their direction that is not a tacit admission to terrorism. See Shin Fein.

Edited January 1, 2009 by Gorgon

[Hell Kitty]

Rostere and Gorgon are just displaying the typical condescending arrogance you find in people who are incapable of seeing beyond politically correct group think.

 

It's not at all condescendingly arrogant to dismiss the beliefs of all those who think a certain way, right? Because anyone who believes x cannot possibly have come to that belief themselves, they must have been brainwashed by group y. When one has a decent argument to make, one doesn't need to resort to such dismissals.

[Volourn]

"Aren't you confusing the Palestinian people with Hamas. Hamas draws strength from repeated violations against civilians, ensuring that however many are killed in these incursions, there will be 10 more to take their place."

 

Are thse the same Palestinian people who voted Hamas into power despite the fact that they are fully aware Hamas purposefully targets civilians? Interesting.

[Killian Kalthorne]

Exactly. Hamas was democratically elected into governing Gaza. The Palestinians wanted Hamas in power. Well, they got what they deserved.

[Volourn]

No. Innocent children, and civilians do not deserve to be killed. Sorry.

[Killian Kalthorne]

No. Innocent children, and civilians do not deserve to be killed. Sorry.

Sorry, Volourn, but there is no such thing as innocence nowadays. Also it is the civilians who elected the Hamas in the first place. You want to get rid of a government you start at its foundation, the ones who placed that government into power. Besides, if the civilians didn't want a war with Israel then they shouldn't have voted for Hamas. The Hamas needs to be wiped out completely and totally, with no survivors. Each time Israel abides by a truce the duly democratically elected Hamas government continues its attacks. They will continue to play this game till Hamas is wiped clean from the earth. Any truce with them will be a lie, as it has been in the past. It is time for the people to pay for the consequences for their actions for supporting Hamas.

 

They chose this.

Edited January 1, 2009 by Killian Kalthorne

[Morgoth]

It's not like the palestinian people voted a militant group to lead their government. So no, the palestinian people do not deserve such a "government". The problem is more that militant groups sneek into the government, creating a parallel/sub government and destabilizing it's actual purpose. Their leaders hide in hospitals, schools and universities, surrounding themself by civilians as a "shield", praying their hate, training new suicide terrorists there and producing explosive devices instead of teaching what is supposed to teach in a school. What you're gonna do? Drop a bomb on these civilian buildings? The IDF has to invade the Gaza now with ground infantry and arrest/kill all militant Hamas members individually, because they don't really have another choice.

[Volourn]

"It's not like the palestinian people voted a militant group to lead their government."

 

Weird. Last i checked, Hamas is the very definition of a 'militant' group. And, Fatah, the other powerful party isn't exactly for being non militant, either.

[Morgoth]

Yeah right Volly, then let's kill ALL PALESTINIAN people, because ya know, they deserve it and all.

[Meshugger]

There will be no peace in that part of the world until the people of each others side truly desires it without the destruction of one another.

[Gorgon]

I guess the question is whether they would have gotten what they wanted as a dispossessed people if somehow they had been able to refrain from terror.

[Walsingham]

We had a crack at this a couple of nights ago using game theory. Basically, neither side can actually agree to peace long-term because it would mean self-destruction at the state and personal political levels. It can't realistically end. I don't like it, but that's just the way it is.