Recent Isareli military action in Gaza

[Walsingham]

I was only joking...

 

I don't really think that the conditions have gone so far south that the Palesitians would want to leave their homeland. However, if you will indulge in my nonsense, here is another suggestion. How about we force the region to desegregate. I remember watching a documentary many years ago about basketball camps involving Palestitian and Israeli youth. While the young boys and girls stayed the camps, they grew to love and respect each other. What if we make the entire region a huge 'basketball camp'? Wonder if that will work...

 

I've seen some excellent results with that in Northern Ireland. But you're really crossing a very tiny barrier that is alsmot artificial. I'm not dismissing your idea, but you'd have to deal with language and social class issues into the bargain with Israel/Palestine.

~~

Wrath: an arms embargo would mean stopping everything to check it. I took that to mean enforcing the blockade. In any event, if we try then UK forces WILL end up killing some Palestinians. At that point we would pack up and leave. The entire thing is a non-starter.

~~

 

Aside: Don't you think it's interesting that we get all this media attention for a couple of thousand casualties, when the ongoing wars in West Africa get sod all? Places where even small forces could do a great deal of good? Places where the casualty lists run into the hundreds of thousands?

[howling1]

Aside: Don't you think it's interesting that we get all this media attention for a couple of thousand casualties, when the ongoing wars in West Africa get sod all? Places where even small forces could do a great deal of good? Places where the casualty lists run into the hundreds of thousands?

 

That's the real horror of it.

 

Look Dafur. Look at Ruanda with eight hundred thousand dead. Look at Cambodia with an admited one million dead ( Tho' the real figure is closer to three million ). The world did nothing. Damn our sorry souls to hell for it...

 

Like I said before, the Arabs need to learn that there's a helluva lot worse than the Israelis out there in the dark...

Edited January 19, 2009 by howling1

[Yuusha]

@Walsingham:

When Hamas sets off a suicide bomb in a commuter bus or cafe, who precisely do you suppose gets killed?

Civilians.

 

You make other points but I'd like to single this out, because it's pretty fallacious (if that's the right word). Quoting the Geneva protocols merely highlights the way that Hamas utterly ignores the said protocols. Because one of the most fundamental aspects is that combatants have to identify themselves as combatants with use of a uniform. Unless they do, how are combatants supposed to avoid killing non-combatants? Add that to the aforementioned deliberate targetting of civilians and what do you have?

So you agree with my other points then?

 

I

[Meshugger]

Well you can rule out Arabs, Europeans, & Russians. The Jewish experience with them has not been a pleasant one...

Hmm, true. History shows there's a bad track record there. Who would you suggest?

Japan?

 

They may look nice, respectful and a bit docile now, but we have to remember that this is the same country that invaded half of Asia not so far ago. It is also the country which has sprung the bushido code, has Samurais and Ninjas as a part of their culture (i have the emphasize this again: Samurais and Ninjas are part of their culture), also worth mentioning is that they have tentacle rape hentai for leisure.

 

Never, ever let a Japanese soldier outside of its border again.

Edited January 19, 2009 by Meshugger

[Volourn]

Bigotry? Wow. It's time to let the past be the past.

 

P.S. I mean that's the large problem that Palestine and Isreal have. Thankfully, Japan seems to be bigger than that. I mean, they have as much a reason to hold a grudge than others do considering they were actually nuked.

[Walsingham]

QUOTE

You make other points but I'd like to single this out, because it's pretty fallacious (if that's the right word). Quoting the Geneva protocols merely highlights the way that Hamas utterly ignores the said protocols. Because one of the most fundamental aspects is that combatants have to identify themselves as combatants with use of a uniform. Unless they do, how are combatants supposed to avoid killing non-combatants? Add that to the aforementioned deliberate targetting of civilians and what do you have?

 

So you agree with my other points then?

 

I

[Kaftan Barlast]

...Japan seems to be bigger than that. I mean, they have as much a reason to hold a grudge than others do considering they were actually nuked.

 

 

Whoah! And as of that sentence I cannot hold my mouth shut for any longer. This will not stand, dude.

 

 

Japan has done nothing for the last 60 years BUT retaliate for the two tiny wee nukes we might have dropped on them. It started out small with their souless and unattractive cars, and now it has reached all the way down ot our children. The CHILDREN, man. Just last week we had to put down an entire kindergarten class after they had been exposed to just 2 minutes of Naruto. And millions of the worlds youth are wasting their lives away mimicking lewd and immoral Japanese behaviour on sites such as 4chan. And I still havent forgotten about 1985. The year famed japanese electro-terrorist Yamaha-Suzuki (or whatever his name is), unleashed Super Mario Brothers on an unsuspecting world. And Might I add that if you turn just one letter of Osama Bin Ladens name upside down, it becomes.. a japensese name Osawa Bin Laden.

 

So, for the sake of all that is good and true (and the children), we must re-nuke Japan for their relentless cultural aggression towards the west. If we all pulled together as a team, we could stop the madness with just 5% of our collected us-euro-russian nuclear weapon stock. Then we could go back to driving our ford mustangs and watching harmless disney cartoons (or in swedens case, our Saab turbos and socialist bamse cartoons)

 

 

 

this post is SO not off-topic.

[Walsingham]

Case in point, in just one part of the Congo hundreds of civilians slaughtered by a tinpot militia. Where are their offers of international aid? I think this is particularly relevant if we consider numbers to be crucial. I'm not saying anyone dying isn't serious. I'm just saying that if we look solely at numbers dead ther are a lot more serious offenders to tackle before we get down the list to Israel.

[~Di]

Case in point, in just one part of the Congo hundreds of civilians slaughtered by a tinpot militia. Where are their offers of international aid? I think this is particularly relevant if we consider numbers to be crucial. I'm not saying anyone dying isn't serious. I'm just saying that if we look solely at numbers dead ther are a lot more serious offenders to tackle before we get down the list to Israel.

 

 

You bring up a point I have silently fumed about for years. Global journalists decide where international attention will be directed, and what will be ignored. Decades back, this was not the role of journalists... and I simply cannot accept their transformation from reporters of international fact to interpreters, commentators and sole arbitrars over which international facts will be reported... while picking sides, of course... and which international facts will be utterly ignored.

Edited January 20, 2009 by ~Di

[howling1]

Case in point, in just one part of the Congo hundreds of civilians slaughtered by a tinpot militia. Where are their offers of international aid? I think this is particularly relevant if we consider numbers to be crucial. I'm not saying anyone dying isn't serious. I'm just saying that if we look solely at numbers dead ther are a lot more serious offenders to tackle before we get down the list to Israel.

 

 

You bring up a point I have silently fumed about for years. Global journalists decide where international attention will be directed, and what will be ignored. Decades back, this was not the role of journalists... and I simply cannot accept their transformation from reporters of international fact to interpreters, commentators and sole arbitrars over which international facts will be reported... while picking sides, of course... and which international facts will be utterly ignored.

 

That's why I listen to shortwave & not CNN. US media has a definate bias...

 

BTW Hi Di, long time no see...

[Gorgon]

How do you know exactly what the bias of any given media has. I think it's prudent to sample a little bit of everything. Also there are still newspapers out there that people buy because they still retain an editorial standard that is higher than TV or radio.

Edited January 20, 2009 by Gorgon

[~Di]

Case in point, in just one part of the Congo hundreds of civilians slaughtered by a tinpot militia. Where are their offers of international aid? I think this is particularly relevant if we consider numbers to be crucial. I'm not saying anyone dying isn't serious. I'm just saying that if we look solely at numbers dead ther are a lot more serious offenders to tackle before we get down the list to Israel.

 

 

You bring up a point I have silently fumed about for years. Global journalists decide where international attention will be directed, and what will be ignored. Decades back, this was not the role of journalists... and I simply cannot accept their transformation from reporters of international fact to interpreters, commentators and sole arbitrars over which international facts will be reported... while picking sides, of course... and which international facts will be utterly ignored.

 

That's why I listen to shortwave & not CNN. US media has a definate bias...

 

BTW Hi Di, long time no see...

 

Heya! How's my favorite dwarf? *smooch!*

[howling1]

How do you know exactly what the bias of any given media has. I think it's prudent to sample a little bit of everything. Also there are still newspapers out there that people buy because they still retain an editorial standard that is higher than TV or radio.

 

Well, the newspapers are dying. At least the print versions are tho' online versions seem to be holding their own for now.

CNN & MSNBC have a leftwing agenda that is easily picked up if watched long enough. At the other extreme is Fox News.

I tend to be more center of the road.

 

I'd rather listen to the BBC, Radio Australia, Radio Japan, etc as their reporting of US & international news seems to be less biased overall...

Edited January 20, 2009 by howling1

[Yuusha]

@Walsingham:

No. I just think we can engage reasonably cleanly on this point, and come back to the others. Your point about numbers is sensible in its way. However, you are ignoring - or appear to be ignoring - the question of intent. The law certainly takes intent into account, hence the widespread differentiation between manslaughter and homicide. Similarly, under the rules of war killing a civilian is not a war crime, provided reasonable measures are taken to avoid it.

I’m not really ignoring anything Wals, I just thought that the intent of both Hamas and Israel were obvious for all to see. They both target combatants and civilians alike.

 

Although at the end of the day when you look at the statistics, it’s clear that one side is much more efficient, effective and merciless than the other.

 

This then is one axis of my overall position: that Hamas has a stated policy (both before ad after being elected) of attacking civilians, and is thus unable to complain when its own civilians are attacked.

 

Clearly, that's debateable, but I think it's pretty straightforward as an argument.

If you check out the link I gave Volourn earlier, you'd know that Hamas weren't the ones that broke the ceasefire. The ceasefire was a commitment Hamas held firmly as they no longer adhered to the destruction of Israel. Even as Israel tightens the blockade on Gaza instead of lifting it.

 

In any case, attacks on civilians are unacceptable, whether Palestinian or Israeli civilians. Yet the US government, public relations officials, and mainstream media, and even most forum members here —unlike those of almost every other country in the world— continue to criminalize Palestinian violence while absolving Israel (the undisputed party in power) of almost any responsibility of its own. Most (short sighted) Israeli people also see this as a just war on terror. If I didn't know better, I'd say that most member here are ruled by the same 'elite' that ruled both Israel and the US.

 

My point is that the official position seems clear: Israel can/will do as it likes until Hamas stops all violence.

 

The underlying assumption here is that Palestinians’ human rights depend on the actions of their leaders. This is false. Palestinians do not have to earn the human rights inalienable to every person on Earth. Human rights are non-negotiable. Likewise, Israelis do not have to earn their human rights. Israeli state terror notwithstanding, it would be criminal to bombard the entire population of Israel (in which, as in Gaza, fighters live alongside their families in civilian areas) for the crimes of its government.

Edited January 20, 2009 by Yuusha

[Calax]

How do you know exactly what the bias of any given media has. I think it's prudent to sample a little bit of everything. Also there are still newspapers out there that people buy because they still retain an editorial standard that is higher than TV or radio.

 

Well, the newspapers are dying. At least the print versions are tho' online versions seem to be holding their own for now.

CNN & MSNBC have a leftwing agenda that is easily picked up if watched long enough. At the other extreme is Fox News.

I tend to be more center of the road.

 

I'd rather listen to the BBC, Radio Australia, Radio Japan, etc as their reporting of US & international news seems to be less biased overall...

Interesting factoid, CNN was probably the slowest to award states to either obama or mccain. Admittedly it was slower by only one or two states but still it was slower.

[Killian Kalthorne]

Every news organization has bias in one way or another. That is why one should get the news from multiple sources.

 

I think that the problem with Israel and their forces is that they are targeting legitimate targets, but don't really give a damn about collatoral damage since Hamas tends to use civilians as meat shields. While I do agree with Yuusha that the actions of Israel in this regard is repugnant I don't see any other recourse for Israel can do in order to protect its own people from Hamas attack. They have only two real choices:

 

1. Let Hamas harass and possibly kill Israelis with their rockets.

2. Retaliate in force to stop Hamas, and place civilian Palestinian lives in jeopardy.

 

Neither choice is good but if I was the Israeli government I would choose 2. If the roles were reverse I would still choose 2. The responsibility of a government is to safeguard the interests and lives of its own people. Hamas' attack on Israel sovereignty, no matter how effective or ineffective it is, needs to be dealt with in force.

[Walsingham]

If you check out the link I gave Volourn earlier, you'd know that Hamas weren't the ones that broke the ceasefire. The ceasefire was a commitment Hamas held firmly as they no longer adhered to the destruction of Israel. Even as Israel tightens the blockade on Gaza instead of lifting it.

 

In any case, attacks on civilians are unacceptable, whether Palestinian or Israeli civilians. Yet the US government, public relations officials, and mainstream media, and even most forum members here

[Yuusha]

@Killian Kalthorne:

While I do agree with Yuusha that the actions of Israel in this regard is repugnant I don't see any other recourse for Israel can do in order to protect its own people from Hamas attack.

At last, someone agrees with me!

 

1. Let Hamas harass and possibly kill Israelis with their rockets.

2. Retaliate in force to stop Hamas, and place civilian Palestinian lives in jeopardy.

Actually, there is a third choice: Two State Solution.

 

You may not now this, but the war in Gaza looks like a desperate attempt to sink, once and for all, any possibility of a two-state solution of the Israeli-Palestinian conflict. What alternative do Israel

[Humodour]

You still ranting, Yuusha?

 

The war's over, Israel has withdrawn, and the two-state solution already exists and isn't going away any time soon (no matter how hard Hamas tries to obliterate Israel). Cheers for your concern though, mate.

[Yuusha]

Yep, let's hope the war is truly over.

[Killian Kalthorne]

The two state solution would not be in the best interest of Israel therefore Israel will never go for it. Hell, in the long run I don't think the Palestinians would want it either because it would require sharing power, and power, once had, can never be shared due to human greed.

[Volourn]

"The two state solution would not be in the best interest of Israel therefore Israel will never go for it."

 

I dunno if it's the best thing for Isreal; but they are going for it. Isreal has already agreed to a two state solution. It's just the matter of implementing it.

[Killian Kalthorne]

It won't work. If it does I would be very surprised.

[Humodour]

The two state solution would not be in the best interest of Israel therefore Israel will never go for it. Hell, in the long run I don't think the Palestinians would want it either because it would require sharing power, and power, once had, can never be shared due to human greed.

 

They already implemented the two-state solution earlier this decade you dork-knob. What do you think the West Bank is? Why do you think Israel had to send troops into Gaza in the first place? Hint: it's because they don't control it.

 

Anyway, Hamas just fired some more mortars at Israel. Guess where from this time? A refugee camp. Meanwhile, Fatah activists are randomly being shot oh, and those lovely Hamas chaps are also hijacking Jordanian aid trucks:

 

Jordan's Petra News Agency reports that Hamas hijacked Jordanian aid trucks after they crossed into Gaza through the Kerem Shalom crossing on Tuesday.

 

The aid was to go to UNRWA. As the truck drivers started unloading the aid, Hamas gunmen opened fire on them and forced them to go to Hamas-run stores.

 

http://ammannet.net/look/article.tpl?IdLan...mp;NrSection=40

 

(It's Arabic)

[Volourn]

Hamas loves Palestinians.