Recent Isareli military action in Gaza

[Killian Kalthorne]

Some would say that such a judgment call should never be the US's to make (though many people are retroactively making that call about Saddam Hussein these days). But then, realistically, if you don't make the judgment call as a hegemon, who will?

 

I agree. That would be a judgment call the United Nations to make.

 

Killian, maybe, but I imagine that would have resulted in a massive disaster... and wouldn't have lasted long, either. It was going to be a problem wherever you put the Jews.

 

I don't think it would be as bad as it is now. Isn't Israel continuing its attacks on the Hamas, killing hundreds of people. Not saying it isn't justified due to the rocket attacks from Hamas which shows how stupid the Hamas are.

[Morgoth]

You can't change anything without harming SOMEONE.

 

True, but you can make sure those who are getting harm deserves it. For example after WW2 it would have been a better punishment for Germany, Italy, and their allies to lose land and form the Jewish state there instead of the Middle East, taking land from the Arabs who have long since claimed that territory for centuries and did nothing in WW2 to deserve the land stolen from them.

What a rubbish. Taking country away will only piss people off. Besides, there were hardly any Jews left in Central Europe.

 

Now the dilemma that Israel faces today is attributed to the fact that it is surrounded by underdeveloped Islamistic countries. The Hamas and other organizations keep firing their crappy rockets into Israel, not mourning their own dead and just keep doing the same mistake again and again by starting new attacks. Not that I think Israel isn't without flaws, but I can certainly understand the the folks there are under constant stress and need to do something about it. Does it need the whole Arabic world to be eradicated until there's peace?

[Tigranes]

well, yes, there were tons of Jews in Israel already by the end of WW2. A more appropriate time would have been after WW1 and the disintegration of the Ottoman Empire... but then there wouldn't have been a good pretext.

[Volourn]

"and their allies to lose land and form the Jewish state there instead of the Middle East, taking land from the Arabs who have long since claimed that territory for centuries and did nothing in WW2 to deserve the land stolen from them."

 

Oh, please. This is a joke. The Palestinainas aren't even the original 'owners' of the lands in question. LMAO They have no more right than anyone else to claima piece of land because chances are that land like most otherwise was at one time or another stolen from someone else anyways. The fact that they have happened to be on it for centuries doesn't take this fact away. They have no more claim to Palestine than Isreal does Isreal. Or Iran has to Iran or the US has to the US, and so on so forth.

 

 

"The Hamas and other organizations keep firing their crappy rockets into Israel, not mourning their own dead and just keep doing the same mistake again and again by starting new attacks. Not that I think Israel isn't without flaws, but I can certainly understand the the folks there are under constant stress and need to do something about it. Does it need the whole Arabic world to be eradicated until there's peace?"

 

What's funny is that you hardly any reporting or condemnation of Hamas rocket attacks until Isreal responded in force. Then all of assudden you get a spamming of 'all violence must stop'. L0L

 

 

"Isn't Israel continuing its attacks on the Hamas, killing hundreds of people. Not saying it isn't justified due to the rocket attacks from Hamas which shows how stupid the Hamas are."

 

Sorry; but I don't feel sorry for Hamas because they purposefully targeted Isreal civilians, and while Isreal does sadly and wrongly kill Palestian civilians, it should be noted that Hamas purposefully targets civilians for MOST of their attacks. Besides, Hamas and their ilks don't want peace with isreal. They want Isreal wiped out. Period. All the various ceasefires do is give Hamas time tor egroup after an Isreal heavy offensive denegrates Hamas. Sadly, the Palestinians support Hamas' belief of total destruction of Isreal. Until that attitude changes this won't change. And, yeah, their are Isrealis who want Palestine wiped off the map; but they tend to be laughed at by the Isreali mainstream unlike Hamas which is quite popular with Palestinians.

 

 

"But is it a good thing that the US is so powerful?"

 

Compared to the alternatives? Absolutely. As a citizen of a much smaller neighbouring country, I feel safe from attack from the US. Even Cuba which is US's Iconic enemy on this side of world isn't going to be attacked by the US. Only Europe as a continent can claim even remoltely so the same safety and even then its iffy thanks to their closeness to the ME espicially since ME countries want to be in the EU. (Australia doesn't count, only 1 country there lol).

 

And, comapred to previous superpowers? I'll take the US over the British Empire, Rome, et al. any day of the week.

[Morgoth]

"What's funny is that you hardly any reporting or condemnation of Hamas rocket attacks until Isreal responded in force. Then all of assudden you get a spamming of 'all violence must stop'. L0L"

 

Now that sentence didn't really make complete sense but let me just say that someone who prays hate and violence will just exactly get that in return. Palestina had enough chances to accept peace and aknoweledge the Israel state. But no, they keep training new people and send them into certain death against a superior might. I don't feel pitty for these people.

[Volourn]

I feel sorry for the people who just want to be allowed to live in actual peace.

[Guard Dog]

What's funny is that you hardly any reporting or condemnation of Hamas rocket attacks until Isreal responded in force. Then all of assudden you get a spamming of 'all violence must stop'. L0L

 

This is a good point. Hamas rockets killing Israeli civilians barely makes the news. Israel responds and the world laments.

[Gorgon]

One could reasonably assume a democratic state to be held to a greater standard than a terrorist organization.

[Wrath of Dagon]

WoD, you continue to implicitly and very completely associate the American citizen with the tendrils of government policy. Are you saying that the good America has done was carried out under your direction, that you had a say in it, that you even know about all of it, and that you are, in fact, responsible for it? Because if so, then the American citizen carries the burden for all the crap the US has done over the years, as well.

 

Someone brings up the Iraq War and inevitably somebody will say, "you can't use that to generalise about the attitude and benevolence of the average American". Which sounds reasonable to me. But then you seem to be happy enough to take the credit for all the good the US has done in the world (of which there is a lot). So which is it? You can't puff up in national pride and quote something that essentially says "We are such nice people, we are the man, and anything that we screw up wasn't on purpose so it's all okay" unless you're also willing to say that the American citizen also needs to take the burden and feel responsible about the more negative impacts of US intervention over the years.

 

I mean, for instance, I stated from the very start that in my opinion, there's been a lot of good done by the Americans since WW2, and if faced with a choice of zero US intervention or the current situation, I'd take the latter. That doesn't mean you can be blind to what doesn't go quite as well - when you're involved in as many things as the US is you're bound to have failures and mishaps. The Ralph Peters quote may be appropriate when faced against an overwhelmingly negative "GO AWAY" view of US hegemony, but I don't see anybody espousing that here. Maybe we're a bit too liberal on these boards, but still.

We elect the government, so we are responsible for its actions, yes. And I never said that if we do something wrong, it's OK, and I don't think that's what Peters is saying either. I think he's pointing out the effect of the totality of American actions.

[Wrath of Dagon]

One could reasonably assume a democratic state to be held to a greater standard than a terrorist organization.

What the hell does that mean, when terrorists intentionally kill civilians it's more OK than if a democratic state does it?

Edited December 30, 2008 by Wrath of Dagon

[Gorgon]

Both sides kill civilians on a regular basis, whether intentionally or incidentally, without very much to show for it. Yes, a democracy is supposed to weigh human life higher than Israel has come to do. Can you say the same of a terrorist organization.

 

It comes no doubt from decades of low intensity conflict, it desensitizes people.

[Gorth]

One could reasonably assume a democratic state to be held to a greater standard than a terrorist organization.

What the hell does that mean, when terrorists intentionally kill civilians it's more OK than if a democratic state does it?

I think he meant it the other way around. A democratic state (usually) claims to be better than a terrorist organisation, therefore they are expected to put more effort into not behaving as one.

[Wrath of Dagon]

Both sides kill civilians on a regular basis, whether intentionally or incidentally, without very much to show for it. Yes, a democracy is supposed to weigh human life higher than Israel has come to do. Can you say the same of a terrorist organization.

 

It comes no doubt from decades of low intensity conflict, it desensitizes people.

Not sure what your point is. Whether it's intentional or incidental makes a huge difference. Any country has the right to defend itself. No one has the right to intentionally target civilians.

[Volourn]

"One could reasonably assume a democratic state to be held to a greater standard than a terrorist organization."

 

Except Hamas is a democratic party that was ELECTED into office to represent Palestinians.

 

 

 

"A democratic state (usually) claims to be better than a terrorist organisation, therefore they are expected to put more effort into not behaving as one."

 

That's kinda funny since most 'terrorist organisations' claim to be better than democratically elected governements - see AQ's thoguhts on how they feel about most democracies. L0L

 

On top of this, Hamas is a demcoratic organization.

 

 

 

"therefore they are expected to put more effort into not behaving as one."

 

And, in fact, Isreal does by and large, does behave better than Hamas in this regard.

 

 

one more time people: HAMAS IS A DEMOCRATICALLY ELECTED GOVERNMENTAL ORGANIZATION CHOSEN BY PALESTINIANS TO REPRESENT THEM.

[Morgoth]

I doubt Hamas represents the interest of all Palestinian people. I don't even want to know how much deception and corruption it took to get them "democratically elected". Lol.

[Gorgon]

Hamas is a little bit of everything. The provide health care, they have a news station, they are a political party.

 

Point is what they are remembered for is being a terrorist organization. Suicide bombs are outside the framework of democratic society. Following their election the US and EU cut off aid to Gaza so as not to directly fund their operations.

[Volourn]

"I doubt Hamas represents the interest of all Palestinian people. I don't even want to know how much deception and corruption it took to get them "democratically elected". Lol."

 

Um.. I don't know of any legit democractic party that represents the 'interest' of all people in a country. Even Obama who won 'easily' didn't even win 60% of the vote which means 40%+ didn't vote for him. In my country, our elected party didn't even come close to 50% of the vote. Bottom line is Hamas is a democratic party.

 

 

"Point is what they are remembered for is being a terrorist organization."

 

Not by the Palestinians. That's for sure. And, likely not by most of the ME, either.

[Gorgon]

I'm sure there were plenty of Irish who didn't think the IRA terrorist, even as they were bombing London, but it's pretty simple, killing civilians specifically in the name of politics, religion, whatever, to create a media event supposedly capable of creating a desired response, that's what terrorism is.

 

In any case I can see I have succeeded in backing you into the unlikely position of defending Hamas' raison d'etre. My work here is done.

 

*Evil laugh*

Edited December 30, 2008 by Gorgon

[Walsingham]

Er... it's kind of the difference between me shooting you accidentally, and on purpose. Shooting accidentally you can be lots of things, annoying, stupid, careless, drunk. You can engage with me to improve and not get shot again. If I shoot you on purpose there's not a lot to discuss.

[Gorgon]

An apartment in a building has been verified as the location of a senior Hamas leader, IDF takes down the whole building, a Hamas official is traveling by car in the middle of a busy Gaza street, IDF shoots a hellfire missle, killing the people in the car, and whoever happens to be next to them.

 

Honestly what does it matter to the families of the innocent victims that the people who had to make the decision didn't want collateral damage. You have to ask yourself if it's worth it, if all it accomplishes is to maintain the status quo.

[Wrath of Dagon]

And your alternative would be what? Just sit on your hands while your people are being murdered?

[Gorgon]

To you usually gauge your actions according to what they accomplish, or are you happy to do whatever, just so you can say you did something.

 

Do you really think Hamas is in any danger of running out of militant leaders...

Edited December 30, 2008 by Gorgon

[Wrath of Dagon]

Yes, they're not infinite, and their behavior has been modified in the past. When someone attacks you, you have to retaliate, that seems so obvious I don't see why I would have to defend that idea. Perhaps you think they should just accept their fate and agree to being murdered without protest, in which case there's really nothing left to discuss.

[Gorgon]

Yes, they're not infinite, and their behavior has been modified in the past.

 

Qualify that statement please.

 

Anyway I'm sure there is something in between nothing, and recurring loss of civilian life as a result of the assassination policy, and the 'punitive' incursions, which are all part of the problem not the solution.

Edited December 30, 2008 by Gorgon

[Wrath of Dagon]

What, you think there's actually an infinite number of Hamas members? And they did agree to ceasefires in the past after getting enough punishment.

 

Edit: No there isn't, if there is what is it?

Edited December 30, 2008 by Wrath of Dagon