Help on explaining certain concepts

[Diogo Ribeiro]

(With sincerest apologies to Monte Carlo if he sees where this is going)

 

Not exactly sure this should go here but since it concerns D&D 3.5, it's perhaps better suited. If not, I'd appreciate if a moderator pointed me in the right direction.

 

So, there's this guy who thinks big and does mediocre. Short story, I'm planning a bit of the ol' adventure creation routine but need a bit of D&D lore. While I could do without specific places and certain concepts, I was aiming for some measure of adherence to the realms themselves and something that's possible within the scope of the rules.

 

The adventure is meant to take place on a remote island that acts as a magical magnet of sorts; anyone using the slightest spell within a certain radius is instantly teleported to the island without any means of escape; teleportation spells would just fizzle or place PC within the island's confines. Among its jagged cliffs stands an obsidian tower, which the PCs need to explore if they hope to find the means to leave the place. Now, what I'm looking for exactly are some FR places where such an island could be located; I could say it's a hundred miles off the Sword Coast or somesuch, but I was looking for places where an island with this kind of magical properties wouldn't be too out of place. Plus, I was wondering if there is something more convincing than "magical magnet", both to explain the peculiarities of the island in regards to magic as well as to come up with reasonable explanations on how such an effect could be bypassed or completely dispelled. Could a device affect the tower? Could a series of incantations do it? If the means to deactivate it are too complex for non-spellcasters, what could be a good alternative - runes for mechanical devices, maybe?

 

Note that I'm not asking for story hooks that explain the island or the tower, its possible inhabitants or even how the players get there - just for some good, old fashioned D&D "rules lawyerism" that explains something like this.

[Llyranor]

Haha, you giant nerd.

[Diogo Ribeiro]

Sometimes, I wish I was nerdier.

[J.E. Sawyer]

Depending on your adventure's place in the FR timeline, anywhere near a wild/dead magic zone could suffice. For example, Labelas Enoreth destroyed Clangeddin Silverbeard's avatar on Ruathym, which is way the heck out on the Sword Coast, east of Daggerford and the Whalebones. Hey, did you guys know that there was wild magic fallout there? Well, now there is.

 

You could also put it in the Nelanther Isles, since that's an enormous archipelago where one island among a thousand could easily go unnoticed. The Nelanther Isles also have a series of weird Sea Towers that dot the archipelago. Some weirdo could have taken over one for his or her goofy purposes. The whole region is effectively an anarchic wasteland dominated by pirates, so it's not like locals would actively investigate the deaths or disappearances of others.

[Llyranor]

Well, you got your nerdier wish.

[Diogo Ribeiro]

Thanks a bunch, Sawyer The Nelanther Isles seem like a perfect fit for what I had in mind, and the pirates serve as one of the plot hooks to reach the island. I'm still not sure of a proper timeline, though.

 

With that in mind, I think I can talk about this a bit more in order to discuss and refine some of the ideas behind the project. This adventure is actually two projects in one; two NWN modules that didn't see the light of day. One was mine, which I talked about in the past and was being spearheaded by me and Volourn. The other was a project Monte Carlo had, where I was also briefly part of the team. Suffice to say, neither really took off for some reason or another. I guess the main pitfall was one of the reasons espoused by Sawyer in an article he wrote about module development - ambition without the means to see through it.

 

Now that the above left me feeling like a one man Troika, I think it's safe to say I'm looking at this in a different way now. It's still an ambitious adventure, but while some of my past ideas are still present, the scale is definitely on par with what MC envisioned. Rather than an almost new setting, I'm trying to put most of the Forgotten Realms' lore to use. It's also set on a large dungeon, with an equal measure of combat and role-playing; in particular, I am looking into exploring party dialogue mechanics like those seen in Icewind Dale 2 and introduce events and consequences tailored to a players' choice. One area in particular is meant to be generated based on the PC's class, making it a different kind of challenge for different players (although I still need to learn how to have NWN recognize what class to opt for when a character is multiclassed).

 

That's also my choice of platform, for better or worse - I know NWN2 is the superior engine but at this point in time I have absolutely no way of making modules for, let alone play, NWN2. And the original NWN seems to have a bit more player support for it as well, like the CEP. The reason I'm talking about this at the Pen and Paper Gaming forum is that I intend to release as many notes as I can about the module on release, possibly resulting in enough documentation for DMs to use in game sessions.

 

Since this is becoming too long already, the basic outline of the adventure is this.

 

In the past, four arcanists arrived on the Nelanther Isles (thanks again, Sawyer ), negotiating with the ruling pirate lords and constructing a tower in a nearby isle, the Black Isle. The tower served their needs for reclusion and study, and nearby trade with the pirates allowed them enough supplies and research materials to stay there. The high, jagged cliffs also offered some degree of protection against other means of intrusion as well. Over the years, however, they became more and more secluded, to the point of cutting off all deals with the pirate lords and never venturing off the tower again. The pirate lords saw their self-imposed exile as a possible threat and decided to investigate but all their efforts were thwarted, either by the impenetrable walls of the obsidian tower or the magical traps and wards in place. Eventually they gave up, in part because of repeated failures, and also because the various races that compose the bulk of the pirate forces in Nelanther were too busy among their own faction wars and raiding nearby shipping lines.

 

One day things became worse. A large, thunderous sound was heard coming from the Black Isle and suddenly, magical energies started flowing uncontrollably from inside of it. Various weather phenomena began manifesting, from raging currents to gale force winds. Several pirate lords saw their valuable raids utterly lost as several ships were pulled towards the island's gravitational forces, crashing into its cliffs. When these effects subsided, came the worse - the island became the afforementioned magnet of magical energies. Not only did it began interfering with common trade routes and the pirate lords' raids, but also with almost everything around it. Anyone casting the smallest of cantrips found themselves teleported to the island's grounds, with very slim chances of escape.

 

The weather and magical phenomena destroyed some of the magical defenses in place, allowing the pirate lords to send in men to scout the area, but almost none returned. Those that did return spoke of destruction and madness, but also of riches untold. Whether they had been manipulated by the wizards into giving these informations is unknown, but the pirate lords do know that something happened inside the tower. And they want to know if they need to fight against it or if they can profit from it.

 

This is where the PCs come into play, as rumors of the tower spread quickly along the trade routes of the Trackless Sea. The starting point could be either Nemesser or Irphong, although I think there’s some kind of curse in the latter regarding pirate ships. Players would arrive on a ship and perhaps investigate a local tavern in search of information about the island, along with possible means of transportation to reach it (although I am thinking of exploiting that magical magnet to teleport the PCs there).

 

Level layouts for the island and tower are a bit nebulous at the moment, not because I haven’t planned them, but because they’re undergoing revision in regards to enemy placement and combat, since I want it to be a bit more challenging than vanilla NWN (again, looking to IWD2 for inspiration). The tower eventually leads into a central area connected to a large set of caves and passages, the latter having been used by pirates in the past. Several areas within the tower and the island are derelict and destroyed, with certain floors collapsing into the ones below; while others are rich in encounters and traps – from resilient golems and undead, to portals that take you places you wish didn’t exist. And each mage is meant to have its own “token” area. Whether they are still in the premises is a mystery, though.

 

I’m trying to set up some of these encounters with other factions in the Realms in mind. Since the Black Isle started to draw attention, certain groups and organizations have tried to investigate the place, which means it’s possible you come upon a handful of Thayans looking to take advantage of the situation or a paladin order of sorts that could feel the stench of undead miles away.

 

Anyway, I feel like I wrote too much and said nothing of worth.

Edited December 4, 2008 by Diogo Ribeiro

[Llyranor]

Yeah.

 

Yeah, you're nerdier now.

[Diogo Ribeiro]

Your face is a nerd.

 

In seriousness, today I didn't go to work; had to take care of some health issues at the hospital for a family member. I found public transportation is great for two things - appreciating that mankind has put effort into inventing deodorant, and thinking about elements for the adventure. Since I've began work on this, I've been thinking about giving plenty of opportunities for all classes and prestige classes to shine. Problem is, would people expect this to be applied to the community's own PRCs? There are many, and considering venues for each and every one would be taxing for a one man train wreck in progress. On the other hand, by sticking to the base classes and PRCs, it would allow me to develop a lot more options.

[Walsingham]

I'm just in awe of how much of a nerd Sawyer is. Seriously. I worship his nerdness.

[Diogo Ribeiro]

True. Hopefully, TBH is eventually released and we will all bask in its glorious nerdisms.

[Musopticon?]

Your face is a nerd.

 

In seriousness, today I didn't go to work; had to take care of some health issues at the hospital for a family member. I found public transportation is great for two things - appreciating that mankind has put effort into inventing deodorant, and thinking about elements for the adventure. Since I've began work on this, I've been thinking about giving plenty of opportunities for all classes and prestige classes to shine. Problem is, would people expect this to be applied to the community's own PRCs? There are many, and considering venues for each and every one would be taxing for a one man train wreck in progress. On the other hand, by sticking to the base classes and PRCs, it would allow me to develop a lot more options.

I think it's better to cater to the main classes for the most part, unless you have certain factions in mind that respond to their prestige classes(like Harper Scout f.i.). You might even concentrate on the three basic archetype classes in D&D - the equivalents of thief, mage and warrior - since a barbarian and a fighter probably tackle opponents and obstacles rather similarly, same goes for sorcerer and wizard. Despite this, it might be worth it giving the monk and especially the paladin their own quests and dialogue(yes) trees to solve. Both classes have rigid mindsets that differ seriously from the open possibilities of other classes and there's likely a wealth of undead and unnaturalness for them to rid on the island.

[Tigranes]

Is it just me or does it sound a lot like the Ice Island on the TOTSC?

 

Not that that's bad, but that's how I always understood that place. With the exception that you never really discovered hwo people get sucked in there.

 

Several areas within the tower and the island are derelict and destroyed, with certain floors collapsing into the ones below;

 

Would be hard to do in NWN, by the way. NWN likes its flat flat floors.

 

It sounds like an interesting dungeon romp (and a fun one if IWD2-esque tactical encounters are properly designed, as opposed to NWN walkovers). There are possibilities for some interesting twists in the story (finding out the story behind the tower), but also, since it's a wacky magic tower, lots of weird things to interact with (not just "find magic key X to go to Y" but, say, tamper with the magic field in the tower, make some of its golems turn on others, etc). but I' msure you have your own ideas.

[Diogo Ribeiro]

Tigranes: I'm not against people giving their own ideas and input, but I'd run into problems if my ideas turned out to be similar to those people presented, since I'd have no way of proving I didn't took their ideas as mine.

 

The flat geometry is a snag; I'd have to scour for some prefabs/haks or get my hands on Gmax. Problem with the latter seems to be that it's no longer officially supported, and I also can't seem to find it to use the NWMax plugins. Some areas I had previously designed are already suffering from this; the main floor entrance of the tower was meant to be a circular room with several passageways and now I'm trying to rethink them as more linear and flat. Ditto for the collapsed floors, although I remember uneven terrain geometry when playing the Honor Among Thieves modules - maybe it can be applied to interior tilesets? Have to check that out.

 

Hadn't thought of golem vs. golem action but am trying to tone down the whole "find key to keep going" approach. Don't feel like recreating a corridor shooter with D&D flavor.

 

 

Mus: Good point, since it allows me to focus rather than spread out. Only wall I've chanced upon at this point is this concept I have for a particular area, which will be different for every character class that enters it (ie., Clerics and Paladins would find an area with Undead, Fighter-types would find a place to bash some heads, although they're not that linear - this area would have a twist of its own, which I can't really talk about at this moment; suffice to say, not every undead is evil, not every battle is fought with blades, not everything that can be stolen should be stolen, and so on).

 

The problem is not that it would take too long to develop - possible exception being the area for Rogues, since it's unique to them and a bit on the complex side - but I'm afraid this might endanger certain builds. If you're a Rogue/Fighter 1/10, you probably can't play the area well. Unless you take henchmen with you, but I feel that robs the achievement from the player's hands. This, of course, comes down to something I said earlier - need to find a way for the game to take into account PC levels in a given class, rather than their first class.

[Diogo Ribeiro]

To expand ever so slightly on the above, the area would take into account the following classes:

 

Fighter/Barbarian

Wizard/Sorcerer

Paladin/Cleric

Ranger/Druid

Rogue

 

I'm still unsure if I should place Monk inside the fighter or divine classes, or make an exclusive area for it. And at this moment, the area for Druids/Rangers is a lot more tailored to Druids, so I'll either have to make some changes or come up with something different for Rangers altogether.

[Diogo Ribeiro]

Since I can't edit the above, quick remark - I didn't mention Bards because the area is still a big black hole. I have a somewhat convoluted quest structure for Bards, but considering what I have come up with for some other classes (like Rogue), it pales in comparison.

 

Also, Flintlocks. Would it be worthwhile to include them in the project? Tthis would probably require that one base weapon be replaced; I'm thinking Slings, mostly. If so, on what kind of Feats are usually associated with them?

[Tigranes]

I'd run into problems if my ideas turned out to be similar to those people presented, since I'd have no way of proving I didn't took their ideas as mine.

 

It's always a pity to me when modders say this - I can understand, but if modders can't incorporate the little snippets of ideas people have (esp. people who won't be modding themselves), then who will? I'm sure they won't mind. Anyway...

 

The flat geometry is a snag; I'd have to scour for some prefabs/haks or get my hands on Gmax

 

I haven't checked on the hak scene in a couple of years or so, so there might be something out there by now. Before that, though, uneven geometry in interiors was virtually impossible.

 

Hadn't thought of golem vs. golem action but am trying to tone down the whole "find key to keep going" approach. Don't feel like recreating a corridor shooter with D&D flavor.

 

I agree - let me elaborate. I actually mentioned that because in discussing uneven geometry and collapsed floors, I thought there was great potential for a tower that actually felt like a tower and different levels were integrated, not your usual D&D tower where each level is completely different and separate (nobody ever comes to check out the commotion above, you have a "lava level" then an "ice level", etc). So, by golem v. golem action... we have two examples;

 

1) You enter a level, and its full of dormant golems. You know if you open the doors to the next level, they will attack. You fiddle with their programming (threaten/kill the mage in his lab?) and make some of them fight each other, then you move on to next level. Always fun, but nothing new.

 

2) But what about a situation where your fiddling with golems is 'global'? i.e. Golems are used as sentries adn bodyguards all over the tower, but your fiddling in one room affects many golems in every level of the tower. You might go up onto the next floor to find that the enemies who were waiting for you are now fighting their own golem (Good!), or that some of the golems destroyed some stuff and now cause even more headaches for you (Bad!). In other words, if there is a level of integrity within the tower, then actions on one level can have effects on many others, in many different ways, and they can be good or bad. I'd be far more pleased to find that my golem-fiddling on level 3 has alerted the guards to my presence in level 8, than golem-fiddling on level 3 opening a locked door in level 3.

 

Anyway, that was just a simple example, and an excuse for a rant.

[Diogo Ribeiro]

It's always a pity to me when modders say this - I can understand, but if modders can't incorporate the little snippets of ideas people have (esp. people who won't be modding themselves), then who will? I'm sure they won't mind. Anyway...

 

It's not that I'm the most creative guy in the world or that this project is the most original one ever. But it becomes a bit of a hassle to defend some sort of authorship behind whatever content one includes in the project when it may share many similarities to suggestions given. Again, I'm not against people pitching ideas - a handful of the areas would actually need some creative input, actually - but I don't want to be crucified because someone gave an idea similar to one I already have and then failed to acknowledge that in some readme file, when if fact I may not have even noticed (lulz, the basic theme of NWN2's OC was a bit similar to my first idea for the project, which I present on the forums before the game was announced - I didn't complain... Much, but in all honesty, they probably didn't even noticed my posts on the matter).

 

Seriously, if people have ideas they can share them. I'll do my best to see which ones I will be able to implement, if any. And I'll thank them for those snippets. But if I point out "oh thanks, but I already had that in mind" several times, people are going to get suspicious - even if I am being honest.

 

 

I haven't checked on the hak scene in a couple of years or so, so there might be something out there by now. Before that, though, uneven geometry in interiors was virtually impossible.

 

I had a look over the Vault; there are many good haks including one which, if I'm correct, can generate more natural mountainscapes - ideal for the island. I've also found some interior tilesets with curved or circular rooms, which is nice. But still haven't found one with uneven indoors geometry. To counter that somewhat, I was thinking of indoor tilesets that had particular features to aid me in that - such as holes on the ground and a ramp to simulate destruction, along with climbing the latter to switch floors (Shadows of Undrentide had one such feature that led down to a Formian lair).

 

 

I agree - let me elaborate.

 

Good rant and besides, there's never enough hot golem action. We need more of that

 

One thing I'm considering is to have certain parts of the scenario be destructible. Yes, that seems like another "oh hell, who is this guy kidding he's never gonna do anything if he keeps piling up features like a supermarket list", but the idea is to have some triggers generate explosions or cave ins depending on your actions. Too many Fireballs and you might take down some columns and collapse part of a floor - which may block one path but open another.

[Diogo Ribeiro]

Here's a quick and general idea for some of the specific areas I've mentioned.

 

 

*Arcane spellcasters find themselves in a city which phases out of existence on given intervals. At times, it is a large group of temples not unlike the cities of Maztica. Other times, it is a large ruined city engulfed in perpetual battle. It turns out the ruler (a prince) is a child who had latent psionic powers, but after witnessing the death of his parents by the invading horde, he unleashed his full potential, wiping out the horde. The city and its inhabitants are basically dreamlike manifestations of his mind; while they may be considered illusions, they are recreations of what the prince remembers. The hook here is to have spellcasters try to solve the problem by either wakening the prince, or to force him into a neverending sleep by exploring the mind of the prince (which is essentially the place itself).

 

 

*Divine-based characters find themselves in a city where undead have created their own society, complete with an undead queen and an anti-pope. This place is meant to have divine-based characters question the notions of being undead, of necromancy usually seen as evil, and so on. Most of it is still under construction, unfortunately. Llyranor makes a cameo as a sarcastic undead noble, lulz.

 

 

*Rogues... I like the idea, but I'm starting to think I may be going overboard. They find themselves in a deserted, partially ruined palace with an underground dungeons. It's all dead and silent, with only a handful of corpses and notes suggesting that it had once been a location brimming with life. However, as PCs enter the last dungeon floor they find themselves sent back into time (a time sink not unlike that of NWN's Creator Ruins, where players could only travel back and forth in time, but only in that specific place). Turns out the place was devised by a retired adventurer who created the dungeon to test the mettle of other adventurers. At the heart of it was a ruby, meant as the prize for those who could reach it.

 

In the present, PCs learn that something terrible begun happening and no adventurer ever came back. Determined to find what was wrong, the retired adventurer goes down there but is also never heard from again. But in the past, the dungeon is beginning construction so the hook is not to solve the dungeon (directly, anyway) but to help design it. Rogues would lend their expertise in defining some elements of the layout, trap placement and so on, experimenting with time travel to determine just how easy (or hard) certain sections would be, in order to help the adventurer in the past and obtaining the jewel in the future.

 

 

*Fighter types... I tried exploring the definition of fighter a bit, but also giving it a twist. The "idea" isn't well developed yet, but I wanted to make it seem that that part of the game was basically poking at bashers. One area is meant to resemble the old Wizardries. Firstperson, wireframe graphics, with the need to input which direction to turn or move into, and do nothing but fight after fight. It wouldn't be as elegant as the random dungeon scene in Torment, but it would use the same kind of self-awareness, ranging from weird enemies (Vorpal Bunnies, Entrepeneur Xvart, Disenfrachised Dwarf) to weird loot (Spork of the Many Stabbings, Club of Hitmore). One of the possibilities I was considering was to have about four areas or dungeon levels, each with a particular take on old RPGs or the fighter concepts in general (ie., one area could be reminiscent of Gauntlet, shifting perspective to a topdown view and having "monster generators" and the like).

 

 

Others are still being worked on. I think I'd like to see Bards investigating Sigil, and at least that's feasible in terms of available haks.

 

 

Now as I'm looking at NWN and NWN2, I'm *really* considering switching to NWN2 because of overal improvements in the editor and terrain possibilities. But the lack of a proper PC to run it is killing me. My old PC had troubles running Oblivion, as I needed to take down several notches in screen resolution and disable several graphical pretties. With that in mind, would it be able to run NWN2?

[Tigranes]

That's a lot of stuff in there DR, and each one could easily be a small mod on its own. Are you sure you're not doing your helium balloon thing again?

 

Perhaps some of those ideeas can be combined into a single area.

 

With that in mind, would it be able to run NWN2?

 

Yes, but you'll have to fight its terrible performance. Because it's so badly optimised, you'll just have to try running it and see - maybe you'll get lucky and it'll chug along okay, with no problems.

[Diogo Ribeiro]

I have a tendency for ballons, I guess. You're right, each one of them could easilly be a module (although the Fighter one seems overly simplistic by comparison, but still something to experiment with). Maybe I should aim lower and start there?

[Tigranes]

Why not imagine you are selling this to a publisher, and make a small 'test module'? Don't choose the very first bit of your campaign, because then you'll be tempted to put in all the exposition or fancy opening sequences or whatever. Your undead city, for instance, appears to require the least amount of complicated scripting (involved in, say, cities phasing out); why not make a prototype of that, just to see if you can get all the scripts working, write all the dialogue, make it look the way you want, and then have it actually play out inside the game.

 

I never did finish a module (and I regret it now that I have much less time than in undergrad years), but I got the farthest when I stopped writing at a certain point and got down and said "i'll just make a couple of rooms".

 

Man, I miss my orcs. The concept was that these orcs in a relatively barren area of (wherever) were actually quite well armed and decent with that kind of handiwork; they weren't "intelligent" per se on a smart-stupid slider, but while they were still illterate, violent and stupid, were quite articulate and knowledgible in their own way... with their own morals and logics that were somewhat along the archetypes of 'practical' or even 'Machiavellian', but not completely so. Meh.

 

But yeah. You always did have a lot of good ideas, imo. Why not just make a room? It's actually really fun. If you go and make the whole thiing you'll probably end up remaking your earliest levels, to integrate what you've learnt throughout the process, so not too much pressure ot make it awesome now, either.

[Diogo Ribeiro]

That seems like a good suggestion, Tig. Start with something simple to get a feel of the editor and work my way from there is probably best, especiall since some functions are still going over my head. It's too bad you never got around to making a module; I also enjoyed many the ideas you talked about in the past.

 

I'll bide my time for now, sticking with the overall design and dialogue of that area, since I want to do this on my gaming PC; the laptop is functional but the onboard graphics card causes several toolset problems which I'm sure a "regular" PC won't have. Besides, I need a PC with more HD capacity for would-be Haks. IF everything goes well, I should have it back at the beginning of the year... And of course, horribly outdated as well. Ah, the woes of being poor.

 

 

Speaking of which, since I'm tackling undead here, there's always been something I found disturbing about them - or rather, how they are seen by divine-based characters and groups. Supposedly, Turn Undead has certain effects against them because the gods that bestow these powers on PCs consider undead to be an abomination to life, correct? Is this because the deities are resentful, in the sense that undead can no longer be acolytes of theirs? Because they can no longer be followers (to the same extent, at least)? Because undead are seen as evil? From memory, some undead can be neutral and not all acts of necromancy may be evil - a necromancer hired by a localy family to raise a dead person in order to make peace with it isn't exactly the same animating dead to torment a village.

 

Of course, I may be looking for explanations where creative liberties may be taken to devise certain plot hooks. After all, most of undead in Torment's Drowned Nations didn't exactly seem evil (exceptions being cases like Acaste). I'm wondering if TNO could have been a Paladin, if he could just kill them all with TU even if they posed no particular threat to him or the people above the catacombs. But I'm trying to make it so Clerics and Paladins are a viable character option, and creating several areas with dialogue and role-playing options may go to waste if players just reap the rewards by spamming TU.

 

Although Sawyer did bring up the notion of dead magic areas, I *think* TU is a supernatural ability and is thus exempt from its effects.

[Rhomal]

I'm just in awe of how much of a nerd Sawyer is. Seriously. I worship his nerdness.

 

QFT

 

I bow in respect...

[Sammael]

Speaking of which, since I'm tackling undead here, there's always been something I found disturbing about them - or rather, how they are seen by divine-based characters and groups. Supposedly, Turn Undead has certain effects against them because the gods that bestow these powers on PCs consider undead to be an abomination to life, correct? Is this because the deities are resentful, in the sense that undead can no longer be acolytes of theirs? Because they can no longer be followers (to the same extent, at least)? Because undead are seen as evil? From memory, some undead can be neutral and not all acts of necromancy may be evil - a necromancer hired by a localy family to raise a dead person in order to make peace with it isn't exactly the same animating dead to torment a village.

 

Of course, I may be looking for explanations where creative liberties may be taken to devise certain plot hooks. After all, most of undead in Torment's Drowned Nations didn't exactly seem evil (exceptions being cases like Acaste). I'm wondering if TNO could have been a Paladin, if he could just kill them all with TU even if they posed no particular threat to him or the people above the catacombs. But I'm trying to make it so Clerics and Paladins are a viable character option, and creating several areas with dialogue and role-playing options may go to waste if players just reap the rewards by spamming TU.

 

Although Sawyer did bring up the notion of dead magic areas, I *think* TU is a supernatural ability and is thus exempt from its effects.

I'll try to tackle this question.

 

First off, the easiest issue, which is whether TU works in dead magic areas: they work like antimagic fields, but generally affect only Weave users or only Shadow Weave users (the second type being a lot more rare than the first type). The antimagic field creates the following effect:

The space within this barrier is impervious to most magical effects, including spells, spell-like abilities, and supernatural abilities. Likewise, it prevents the functioning of any magic items or spells within its confines.

Thus, only (Ex) abilities function within the dead magic area. Note that constructs and undead function normally within such areas (as per the rules), but their abilities may not work.

 

Personally, I think wild magic is a much better option than dead magic - it allows you to be a lot more creative, allowing some effects and disallowing (or warping) others. I had a lot of fun with wild magic areas and Far Realm cysts (which work similar, but even more twisted) in my Rebirth campaign.

 

Now for the undead. Unlike the general D&D 3.5 approach which states that undead = evil, this has never really been the case in the Realms. In my opinion (which is supported by previous editions), non-sentient undead (normal skeletons, zombies, and such) are neutral, just like constructs, because they lack the capacity to make moral/ethical decisions. Intelligent undead may be of any alignment, although I would hold that most are neutral or evil because spontaneously occuring undead are generally cursed into that state because of some crime they committed during their lifetimes. I cannot envisage a good ghoul, for instance.

 

Ghosts can certainly be of any alignment. I'd say the same applies to revenants, although their single-mindedness implies neutrality on the good/evil axis. Liches can be good (and there are several good liches in the Realms). While they probably can't be good, I'd say that vampires can certainly be neutral (I had a N vampire working as Khelben Blackstaff's agent in Skullport... a very tragic character). In Ravenloft 2: Stone Prophet (which is linked to the Realms, since the PCs are supposed to be FR characters), one of the joinable NPCs was an undead paladin (LG) who could not be put to rest until she completed her quest.

 

Now for the issue of religion vs undead. The divine power over these beings is assumed to come from the link between priests and positive and negative energy (which supposedly animates undead, except for mummies in previous editions, which are animated with positive energy). Basically, turn undead allows the priest to channel positive energy and thus disrupt the negative energy which animates undead. Likewise, rebuke undead allows the priest to take over the negative energy which animates undead and thus grants the priest a measure of control over such beings.

 

In the Realms, each church has its own rules regarding undead. This was detailed in the 2nd edition trilogy (Faiths & Avatars, Powers & Pantheons, Demihuman Deities), and these materials remain to this day, IMO, the reference manuals on religion in the Forgotten Realms. According to those books, some churches have the power to turn undead, some to rebuke them, and some (generally neutral ones) have both powers. Others have no specific powers over undead. If you need information on any specific church, I'd be glad to provide it, but it'd be too cumbersome for me to write a list of 120+ deities and the way their church handles undead.

 

In general, I'd rule that clerics of Chauntea and Lathander are justified by their religion to turn undead on sight, no questions asked. Members of other non-evil churches should probably first check whether the undead being in question is sentient or not (if not being attacked by the said undead being, of course). Evil clerics have it easy, as always - turn or rebuke, whatever is the most convenient at the time. That's the way I'd play it, anyway.

Edited January 10, 2009 by Sammael

[Diogo Ribeiro]

Now I have a headache.

 

But seriously, thanks a lot Sammael. I'll have to look into and think about all of this a bit better, but that's some *very* appreciated help. I owe you one