Eulogy for a game

[Magister Lajciak]

A book is better than nothing though.

 

I don't know in this case... maybe marginally better than nothing, but not by a great deal.

[Magister Lajciak]

I actually prefer a good book to a good game.

 

Keyword being "good". Most "novellisations" of things aren't really that great, though I liked what Feist made of Betrayal at Krondor.

 

edit: actually come to think of it, that may be because there aren't so many games that are as good as good books. Kotor 2 is definitely up there as one of the best written games ever, same with Torment, and it would be hard to beat with a book.

 

So in the end I guess I have no special preference of game vs book, I just want whatever comes out to be well written!

 

Don't get me wrong, I like books, but not as a means to continue one of my favorite computer game franchises.

[Humodour]

lol thread

[Magister Lajciak]

Yeah, this thread is starting to lose track.

[Guest Accept]

R.I.P, thou shalt be missed.

 

Av jord

Edited November 9, 2008 by Accept

[Pidesco]

Doesn't "jord" mean "earth" instead of "dust"?

[Gorth]

Doesn't "jord" mean "earth" instead of "dust"?

It does. Literally from earth You came, to earth You shall return.

[Guest Accept]

Doesn't "jord" mean "earth" instead of "dust"?

Here in Sweden "Av jord

[DAWUSS]

Well, as long as the Exile remains nameless, I think I'll take that as a minor but significant win

[babydol]

Well, as long as the Exile remains nameless, I think I'll take that as a minor but significant win

Awesome.

[Guest The Architect]

Well, as long as the Exile remains nameless, I think I'll take that as a minor but significant win

 

Don't give up your day job, you never know what's around the corner.

[Albion72]

Wait wait wait wait... I know that a KOTOR time based MMO is being made, but where was it said that it was the third installment. Was it ever confirmed KOTOR III cannot happen... MMOs and Singleplayer games do take their own paths after all. I haven't kept up with gaming news lately, but I would like to see a link to a site where a company says that KOTOR III as a singleplayer game is out of the question.

 

We still have these forums at least... KOTOR related discussion is still possible .

 

I'm really going to have to buy KOTOR 1 for the PC now... So that I have both of them in the years to come.

Edited November 14, 2008 by Albion72

[Albion72]

The possibilty of k3 all depends on how well the MMO goes. Maybe if the MMO bombs out, they'll say "Hey! Maybe a continuation of k2 -that's not a MMO- is a great idea!" If the money they made the MMO for doesn't show up.... maybe they'll see it the fan's way.

 

Sadly that seems unlikely to me. For one thing, SWtOR has hijacked the K3 plot. So even if it fails and LA decides to retrace their steps towards SP CRPG, there is virtually no way to recover the Revan and Exile vs. True Sith plot...

 

It's dead, Jim.

 

I respectfully disagree.

 

You must look at MMOs, and how they work. MMO's aren't games that are meant for great plot. How can one player be the hero, if 10 thousand other players did the same quests? My guess is this MMO is going to be the run of the mill, "Create your character, get some half-a@# quest that tells you to collect some bones, and then go kill the creatures that have the bones. Do this till max level, then raid this 'Cave that is tuned w/ the darkside' for better gear. This will take you approximately 70 hours of your life."

 

1. EDIT: I did some reading on the site. The events of Star Wars: The Old Republic, take place approximately 300 years after the events of Star Wars Knights of the Old Republic. Far from hijacking the Revan versus true sith plot. 300 years is enough breathing room to do with what you will with that whole story arc. You can be assured that this game will have nothing to do with Revan or the Exile. Sleep easy . After some more reading, I found a very useful sentence. "Choose to be a Jedi, a Sith, or from a variety of other classic Star Wars roles, and make decisions which define your personal story and determine your path down the light or dark side of the Force."

The keywords in this sentence are "define your personal story". This isn't going to be on a galactic epic scale, such as you saving the galaxy. Its going to be personal, story driven battles.

 

 

However, if they do something stupid like tell everyone playing the MMO through some dumb quest what Revan and the Exile did in the uknown regions, and they reveal who the True Sith are, then the plot would be ruined. But I think they would not do this. Because you can gather from games and/or movies that the True Sith were never noticed, or considered enough of a threat to go out AND NOTICE them. This means Revan and the Exile did something special out there, in which their actions can only be revealed through a singleplayer game, and the rest of the galaxy will never know what happened.

 

I wouldn't put the Singleplayer KOTOR 3 to rest just yet.

 

The success/failure of the MMO can be looked at from a positive view point as well.

 

Success: Bioware has money. Lots of money. They can make a singleplayer third installment.

 

Failure: Bioware realized players don't want an MMO. They make a singleplayer third installment.

Edited November 14, 2008 by Albion72

[Markus Ramikin]

Ah, youthful optimism.

[Pidesco]

If all these franchise fanboys had always been around, we'd be watching Casablanca 28: Renault and Rick's love grows, a descendant of Shakespeare would be writing Hamlet: The Soliloquy of Reckoning, and The Metamorphosis would have been turned into a series where in each story, a different person becomes a different insect.

[Jediphile]

1. EDIT: I did some reading on the site. The events of Star Wars: The Old Republic, take place approximately 300 years after the events of Star Wars Knights of the Old Republic. Far from hijacking the Revan versus true sith plot. 300 years is enough breathing room to do with what you will with that whole story arc. You can be assured that this game will have nothing to do with Revan or the Exile.

 

 

1. 300 years later = Revan and Exile dead.

 

2. From the FAQ - http://www.swtor.com/info/faq#356

 

Star Wars: The Old Republic takes place approximately three hundred years after the events of Star Wars: Knights of the Old Republic (KOTOR). At the conclusion of the Jedi Civil War in KOTOR, Revan disappeared into unknown space in search of a great threat to the Republic, an expanding Sith Empire led by a mysterious Emperor who planned vengeance for his ancient Jedi enemies. Revan never returned from unknown space, but the Sith Empire did, kicking off a war with the Republic that lasted for decades. Now, despite the uneasy truce created by the Treaty of Coruscant, the tension among the divided star systems is threatening to once again tear the galaxy apart.

 

This means that there can never be a KotOR3 where Revan and Exile resolve the threat of the True Sith, because we're now 300 years later, meaning they've both long since died of old age, yet here are the same Sith that Revan left to fight, and they threaten the Republic. Hence Revan failed, and the game is based on the plot basis established for Revan during TSL. Or to put it differently:

 

However, if they do something stupid like tell everyone playing the MMO through some dumb quest what Revan and the Exile did in the uknown regions, and they reveal who the True Sith are, then the plot would be ruined. But I think they would not do this.

 

Which, judging from the above, is exactly what they did. Same plot, it's the true Sith and Revan never returned. That's it, KotOR closed. If they have thought of an original plot, I wouldn't have a problem with this, but they didn't - they hijacked the KotOR3 plot established at the end of TSL.

 

Besides, also from the FAQ:

Given that it is approximately 300 years since the events of Star Wars: Knights of the Old Republic, many of the characters have passed away. However, their legacy does live on as many of their descendants will be part of Star Wars: The Old Republic. Some droids can last a long time as well.

 

Yup, we'll be seeing droids from KotOR as well, probably T3 and HK-47, and our characters from KotOR will be "relevant" through their various descendants. That's the nod to saying "Yes, this is as much KotOR as you're going to get - KotOR is now this. Get with the program - it's this way or the highway." Personally I've already chosen the latter.

[Jediphile]

If all these franchise fanboys had always been around, we'd be watching Casablanca 28: Renault and Rick's love grows, a descendant of Shakespeare would be writing Hamlet: The Soliloquy of Reckoning, and The Metamorphosis would have been turned into a series where in each story, a different person becomes a different insect.

 

Personally I think there's a big difference between not being able to move on after a story is finished and feeling betrayed when a story ending with a sort-of cliffhanger never has a sequel. The way TSL ends, not doing KotOR3 is like doing having "Empire Strikes Back" or even "Pirates of the Caribbean: Dead Man's Chest" end, then jump a few hundred years ahead and pick up the pieces.

 

For example, there's going to be a fourth Jason Bourne movie as well as a fourth Pirates of the Caribbean movie, but while I love both of those franchises, I'd have been fine not seeing a fourth installment of either because the stories are complete as they are now.

[Albion72]

1. EDIT: I did some reading on the site. The events of Star Wars: The Old Republic, take place approximately 300 years after the events of Star Wars Knights of the Old Republic. Far from hijacking the Revan versus true sith plot. 300 years is enough breathing room to do with what you will with that whole story arc. You can be assured that this game will have nothing to do with Revan or the Exile.

 

 

1. 300 years later = Revan and Exile dead.

 

2. From the FAQ - http://www.swtor.com/info/faq#356

 

Star Wars: The Old Republic takes place approximately three hundred years after the events of Star Wars: Knights of the Old Republic (KOTOR). At the conclusion of the Jedi Civil War in KOTOR, Revan disappeared into unknown space in search of a great threat to the Republic, an expanding Sith Empire led by a mysterious Emperor who planned vengeance for his ancient Jedi enemies. Revan never returned from unknown space, but the Sith Empire did, kicking off a war with the Republic that lasted for decades. Now, despite the uneasy truce created by the Treaty of Coruscant, the tension among the divided star systems is threatening to once again tear the galaxy apart.

 

This means that there can never be a KotOR3 where Revan and Exile resolve the threat of the True Sith, because we're now 300 years later, meaning they've both long since died of old age, yet here are the same Sith that Revan left to fight, and they threaten the Republic. Hence Revan failed, and the game is based on the plot basis established for Revan during TSL. Or to put it differently:

 

However, if they do something stupid like tell everyone playing the MMO through some dumb quest what Revan and the Exile did in the uknown regions, and they reveal who the True Sith are, then the plot would be ruined. But I think they would not do this.

 

Which, judging from the above, is exactly what they did. Same plot, it's the true Sith and Revan never returned. That's it, KotOR closed. If they have thought of an original plot, I wouldn't have a problem with this, but they didn't - they hijacked the KotOR3 plot established at the end of TSL.

 

Besides, also from the FAQ:

Given that it is approximately 300 years since the events of Star Wars: Knights of the Old Republic, many of the characters have passed away. However, their legacy does live on as many of their descendants will be part of Star Wars: The Old Republic. Some droids can last a long time as well.

 

Yup, we'll be seeing droids from KotOR as well, probably T3 and HK-47, and our characters from KotOR will be "relevant" through their various descendants. That's the nod to saying "Yes, this is as much KotOR as you're going to get - KotOR is now this. Get with the program - it's this way or the highway." Personally I've already chosen the latter.

 

That still leaves room for a plot imho. Revan may not have owned all the Sith in the unknown regions, but something interesting certainly happened. Maybe this Sith Emperor is Revan, who knows. Maybe there is a plot twist and these Sith who are attacking the Republic aren't the True Sith at all. Afterall, in KOTOR's time, pretty much every person in the galaxy believed that the Sith we tear apart in the games were THE SITH, who were jerks, conquerors, and fighters.

 

Also, if the True Sith were massing in the uknnown regions, it took them 300 years to finally attack the Republic? Revan/Exile/both had to have DONE SOMETHING to postpone this threat. Afterall I think Kreia states that the Sith we were not apart of the "True Sith" faction... which leads me to believe Revan left known space right away because he knew the True Sith were getting ready to attack the weak and fragile republic, which had been decimated by two wars right after eachother. It was the perfect time to attack, and I think Revan knew this. So, what stopped the True Sith from attacking a Republic that was only a tiny fraction of its strength before the war? Even if these True Sith only had mediocre military forces, mediocre was better than the Republics tiny little army that was still intact and operational.

 

Perhaps we will not find out who the True Sith are until some future Expanded Universe comic or game that takes place far after anything we have now (I hope not).

Perhaps We will get a game that takes place during the Mandalorian Wars and we'll see what Revan saw when he came back with an armada.

 

I guess the whole point of what I'm getting at is this:

 

Just because a company decides to make an MMO does not mean that the entirety of a plot is destroyed. Take Star Wars Galaxies for example. During the time period of the game (Rebellion vs. Empire), were there thousands of jedi running around? No. In the game were there? Yes. Did you see any of the events that took place in the movies in the game? No. You made your own personal story. There was nothing epic about Star Wars Galaxies. No plots were screwed over. Games were still made of that time era.

 

We are safe.

[Jediphile]

That still leaves room for a plot imho. Revan may not have owned all the Sith in the unknown regions, but something interesting certainly happened. Maybe this Sith Emperor is Revan, who knows.

 

Seeing as how the mysterious sith emperor is said to have extended his life, that is possible. If true, it would, however, also be incredibly lame and would certainly invalidate any and all choices you made in KotOR1.

 

Maybe there is a plot twist and these Sith who are attacking the Republic aren't the True Sith at all.

 

The FAQ says, "At the conclusion of the Jedi Civil War in KOTOR, Revan disappeared into unknown space in search of a great threat to the Republic, an expanding Sith Empire led by a mysterious Emperor who planned vengeance for his ancient Jedi enemies. Revan never returned from unknown space, but the Sith Empire did, kicking off a war with the Republic that lasted for decades."

 

This leaves very little or actually no doubt at all as to who Kreia's mysterious "true Sith" are. Even if you want to attribute the term to some other sith, it is clear from the above that the sith attacking the Republic in SWtOR are the Sith Revan left to fight. That's the thing that annoys me so much about this. If it had been left ambiguous, that would have been one thing - sith come and go, and who's to say who those sith are who are now attacking the Republic. But this leaves no doubt - it's the Sith Revan left to stop, and he failed to do so. He may have slowed them down, but he didn't stop them, and they eventually did attack.

 

Also, if the True Sith were massing in the uknnown regions, it took them 300 years to finally attack the Republic? Revan/Exile/both had to have DONE SOMETHING to postpone this threat. Afterall I think Kreia states that the Sith we were not apart of the "True Sith" faction... which leads me to believe Revan left known space right away because he knew the True Sith were getting ready to attack the weak and fragile republic, which had been decimated by two wars right after eachother. It was the perfect time to attack, and I think Revan knew this. So, what stopped the True Sith from attacking a Republic that was only a tiny fraction of its strength before the war? Even if these True Sith only had mediocre military forces, mediocre was better than the Republics tiny little army that was still intact and operational.

 

It's always been my suspicion that Revan left to start a civil war within the true Sith ranks in order to cripple their efforts toward a military build-up prior to an invasion of the Republic. But it is clear now that is was only a delaying action. Could a plot be based on that? Sure, it could, but it would be a pretty bleak story, where the only victory Revan and possible the exile could achieve would be to postpone the inevitable. Ultimately their efforts are doomed to failure, so who would be excited about playing that? Well, I might, but it's not a Star Warsy-type of story, more like somethnig in Lovecraft's Cthulhu mythos or similar.

 

Perhaps we will not find out who the True Sith are until some future Expanded Universe comic or game that takes place far after anything we have now (I hope not).

Perhaps We will get a game that takes place during the Mandalorian Wars and we'll see what Revan saw when he came back with an armada.

 

Perhaps, but then neither is KotOR3.

 

Just because a company decides to make an MMO does not mean that the entirety of a plot is destroyed.

 

Unfortunately it does. Not because of the choice of doing an MMO, but because of the plot details they chose to base it on. Had Revan's fate and the origin of the sith empire in the plot been left ambiguous or undefined, it would have been a different matter, but the details LA and Bioware have chosen to give makes it very clear - this MMO is the closest thing to KotOR3 that we're going to get, so if we want to play KotOR3, then we have to play this game. Period. That's exactly what the point of giving out those details is. The plot itself doesn't need them. I know it's difficult to accept, and if you choose to live in denial, then that's your choice, but the way I see it there is no doubt at all - KotOR is dead, because LA and Bioware have chosen to ritually sacrifice it as a marketing tactic toward making fans of the franchise understand that this is the next chapter.

 

Just look at the press release, if you have any doubt - http://www.swtor.com/news/article/press-release-001

 

"Star Wars: Knights of the Old Republic is the most critically acclaimed Star Wars game in LucasArts history and a preeminent example of our company

[master death]

you guys act like its over theres still a posibillity that it will come out but that possibillity is as always very very slim the mmo set 300 years affter is along time after kotor 2 so somewere in the mix there might be a possibility for kotor3 or not

[Albion72]

That still leaves room for a plot imho. Revan may not have owned all the Sith in the unknown regions, but something interesting certainly happened. Maybe this Sith Emperor is Revan, who knows.

 

Seeing as how the mysterious sith emperor is said to have extended his life, that is possible. If true, it would, however, also be incredibly lame and would certainly invalidate any and all choices you made in KotOR1.

 

Maybe there is a plot twist and these Sith who are attacking the Republic aren't the True Sith at all.

 

The FAQ says, "At the conclusion of the Jedi Civil War in KOTOR, Revan disappeared into unknown space in search of a great threat to the Republic, an expanding Sith Empire led by a mysterious Emperor who planned vengeance for his ancient Jedi enemies. Revan never returned from unknown space, but the Sith Empire did, kicking off a war with the Republic that lasted for decades."

 

This leaves very little or actually no doubt at all as to who Kreia's mysterious "true Sith" are. Even if you want to attribute the term to some other sith, it is clear from the above that the sith attacking the Republic in SWtOR are the Sith Revan left to fight. That's the thing that annoys me so much about this. If it had been left ambiguous, that would have been one thing - sith come and go, and who's to say who those sith are who are now attacking the Republic. But this leaves no doubt - it's the Sith Revan left to stop, and he failed to do so. He may have slowed them down, but he didn't stop them, and they eventually did attack.

 

Also, if the True Sith were massing in the uknnown regions, it took them 300 years to finally attack the Republic? Revan/Exile/both had to have DONE SOMETHING to postpone this threat. Afterall I think Kreia states that the Sith we were not apart of the "True Sith" faction... which leads me to believe Revan left known space right away because he knew the True Sith were getting ready to attack the weak and fragile republic, which had been decimated by two wars right after eachother. It was the perfect time to attack, and I think Revan knew this. So, what stopped the True Sith from attacking a Republic that was only a tiny fraction of its strength before the war? Even if these True Sith only had mediocre military forces, mediocre was better than the Republics tiny little army that was still intact and operational.

 

It's always been my suspicion that Revan left to start a civil war within the true Sith ranks in order to cripple their efforts toward a military build-up prior to an invasion of the Republic. But it is clear now that is was only a delaying action. Could a plot be based on that? Sure, it could, but it would be a pretty bleak story, where the only victory Revan and possible the exile could achieve would be to postpone the inevitable. Ultimately their efforts are doomed to failure, so who would be excited about playing that? Well, I might, but it's not a Star Warsy-type of story, more like somethnig in Lovecraft's Cthulhu mythos or similar.

 

Perhaps we will not find out who the True Sith are until some future Expanded Universe comic or game that takes place far after anything we have now (I hope not).

Perhaps We will get a game that takes place during the Mandalorian Wars and we'll see what Revan saw when he came back with an armada.

 

Perhaps, but then neither is KotOR3.

 

Just because a company decides to make an MMO does not mean that the entirety of a plot is destroyed.

 

Unfortunately it does. Not because of the choice of doing an MMO, but because of the plot details they chose to base it on. Had Revan's fate and the origin of the sith empire in the plot been left ambiguous or undefined, it would have been a different matter, but the details LA and Bioware have chosen to give makes it very clear - this MMO is the closest thing to KotOR3 that we're going to get, so if we want to play KotOR3, then we have to play this game. Period. That's exactly what the point of giving out those details is. The plot itself doesn't need them. I know it's difficult to accept, and if you choose to live in denial, then that's your choice, but the way I see it there is no doubt at all - KotOR is dead, because LA and Bioware have chosen to ritually sacrifice it as a marketing tactic toward making fans of the franchise understand that this is the next chapter.

 

Just look at the press release, if you have any doubt - http://www.swtor.com/news/article/press-release-001

 

"Star Wars: Knights of the Old Republic is the most critically acclaimed Star Wars game in LucasArts history and a preeminent example of our company

[Calax]

Until the game is actually released, we will not know if these Sith are the True Sith or not. The FAQ might say they are, but didn't a Sith force attack the Republic during the Great Hyperspace war? Didn't they come out of seamingly nowhere? All of this could be just trying to build hype for the game, or trying to introduce plot twists. Until we actually play the game, and some old guy in some quest releases full details on these Sith and what Revan and the Exile did to stop them, then we will not know for sure.

The sith that appeared during the great hyperspace war were the original sith aka the TRUE Sith. They had been driven out of known space by the Jedi in centuries past (if I remember my Tales of the Jedi correctly) and ended up landing on a set of planets that were able to support life and indeed had their own inhabitants. Generations of cross breeding and political power struggles later you get Naga Shadows VERY swift rise to power and his subsequent attack on the Republic after being found by a pair of force sensatives. Unfortunatly the areas where this sith empire WAS has been found by the time of the Sith War with Exar Kun's involvement. Korribon and Ziost were two of the major planets in the Sith Empire at that time.

Saying that only delaying them wouldn't be exciting is kind of... whats the word... well... You might as well say that every effort made by the Jedi and the Republic to stop evil was only done to postpone the inevitable. Afterall, the Sith keep coming back, they keep starting wars, and they are never fully defeated. Palpatine attacked the Republic in a sneaky, intelligent sort of why by infiltrating their highest rank. In my opinion, Revan may've beaten the True Sith, but the survivors (they're were definitely some if Palpatine came to be), just rebuilt themselves over the next 300 years then started the NEXT star wars galactic struggle, like they always do lol. Its like Luke defeating the Empire, in the new stuff, the evil comes back.

From what I understand in Lore the Sith of the great Hyperspace war, the Sith War, the Jedi Civil war, and the Clone Wars, were all VERY different from one another. it's not that Sith remain between the ages but rather that their artifacts remain for new "scholars" to arrive and "discover" them and promptly become the new crop of Sith Lords. Their take on what they have to do as ordered by their artifacts or Ghost Masters might be completly different from the others, but the basic tennants are always the same because the Sith are ALWAYS power hungry and backstabbing. It's how they learned to survive.

There is so much you can learn and find out about from a Single-Player KOTOR 3 that I wouldn't even know where to begin to explain. As I stated, Revan, the Jedi Civil War, the Mandalorian Wars, and the Sith will probably be talked about in the MMORPG. Think of it in relation to our world. 300 years ago it was 1708. How much do we talk about that time period? We teach the history to our young people. But other than that, no one really cares to discuss it unless you are debating something, (War tactics, and why the Sith lost, or some other mumbo-jumbo a historian might talk about). Thing is, we don't know what Revan or the Exile did, so there is still a lot of AMBIGUITY there. The only thing we know is that the Sith have attacked the republic. In my opinion, thats normal. The Sith always attack good guys. We know nothing, only that the Sith do what htey always do, try and rule the galaxy so that they... can destroy themselves. Lol.

1708 didn't have much happening. but in america everyone goes over at least somthing that happened in 1608 400 years ago. and that was when Jamestown had John Smith elected as Mayor, and in October a supply ship arrived to find a grand total of 38 people. We don't discuss what happened based on how long ago it happened we discuss it based upon momentus happenings. I think that the Jedi Civil war and related actions would constitute a chapter in a history book. My guess is that in the Republic at least the fact that Revan and the Exile dissapeared into the unknown regions is a simple historical footnote and nothing more will be said. IF they had anything happen with the Exile or Revan they'd have to define the character which would ruin it for fans because then Revan HAS to be X Y and Z for the story to work.

There is one FLAW in that FAQ though. They say that "Revan left to fight an expanding sith empire led by a mysterious sith emperor". I don't ever remember Kreia saying anything about an Emperor. She says that they are rebuilding, but not expanding... She said they were sitting on the borders of uknown space, where the republic could not detect them. I don't remember hearing anything about them Expanding upon known territories... They couldv'e been expanding in unknown space, but we would know NOTHING about that.

 

This FAQ sounds like its more or less trying to make sense of things to players who want to know who they are fighting. It sounds more like a statement released to convince everyone that these Sith are the shizzle. When in fact, there is still the possibility they are not, or there is still the possibility that they are a separate faction. You said yourself Revan could've tried to start a civil war within the Sith ranks. Whats to say this Faction are the Head Honchos? What if he succeeded and this war is functioning at Half strength for the Sith because he screwed up their ranks. What if KOTOR III, ends THIS WAR, with a pro-longed living Revan (and possibly Exile) who end it? The MMO could go on if they ended this war in a Single-Player game. Why? Its an MMO. Nothing has changed in World of Warcraft for hte last five years, regardless of books written or what not.

Don't say that WoW hasn't changed because of the books and related material. Usually the books go over somthing that happened that had NOTHING to do with what was happening in WoW. And even then characters from the books were incorperated into the game world. Also the WoW Comic brought the humans back their king which is a pretty big thing considering it kills an entire quest line.

 

Anyway, The Sith should have an emperor, it is an Empire after all. The easiest way to pick the emperor is the Dark Lord of the Sith. the Sith's leader has always been the reigning Dark Lord. I personally think that it would be stupid to say that the Sith entered a Civil war because of Revan mettling in their affairs. It would take him years to be accepted by the sith if he were following the Light path (as most promotions are based around the superiors death by the promoted). And I sincerely doubt that Revan will come back as the Sith emperor given he'd have to live 300 years which IMHO is quite stupid and it would again define revan. If you Define revan the amounts of Nerd Rage that will pour out from fans of Revan will probably kill one of the bioware writers.

I'm sorry, I'm kind of jumping around with all kinds of theories. But I just think that because an MMO says that Sith from the region Revan left to are attacking the Republic means that Revan and the Exile suffered a humiliating defeat and nothing was accomplished is kind of lame. LucasArts is not without thinking minds. They know that they have left a cliffhanger at the end of KOTOR II. I'm confident they will fill the gap with a Single-Player game. MMO's are a COMPLETELY different story. They made a MATRIX MMO, a Star Wars MMO, a Lord of the Rings MMO, but NONE of these revealed, altered, or in any way tampered with plots. MMOs are there for people who enjoy grinding levels... lol.

LucasArts has Axed their independent thought brigade of developers and probably wouldn't try to bring it back. They aren't even the primary developers on this project, Bioware is. Bioware makes the story and everything and lucasarts just rubberstamps it if it doesn't blatently contradict something that has already been published. From everything I've been reading Bioware decided that Kotor 2 was not worth mentioning. They've dropped it probably because it'd be hard to have a Jedi Order that's worth anything after it had been wiped out and rebuilt only 300 years before. Especially considering that a Sith Empire would have the advantage of Men and Material in a war with the Order and the Republic given that the republic had to recover from 2 Galactic wars within 50 years of each other. They might have been able to build back up but they had no real reason to given that their borders weren't being threatened by anything and large corporations generally hired their own mercs. I never played Matrix online or LOTR online but I did play Star Wars and it did tamper with the plot in the early stages. Originally there was a running plot line that went one way or the other based upon the actions of the players in the game. This died out pretty quickly because it was one sided the Alliances way the entire time.

Meanwhile World of Warcraft has been advancing it's story pretty steadly for what it is. From the perspective of the game all the pre60 content was 2 years ago, the 60 to 70 content was one year ago (this includes the deaths of Kael'thas Vasj and Illidan) and he 80 content is current (with the return of the king of Stormwind)

[Albion72]

Bleh, forget forum mechanics. I shall manually quote you!

 

Calax said, "The sith that appeared during the great hyperspace war were the original sith aka the TRUE Sith. They had been driven out of known space by the Jedi in centuries past (if I remember my Tales of the Jedi correctly) and ended up landing on a set of planets that were able to support life and indeed had their own inhabitants. Generations of cross breeding and political power struggles later you get Naga Shadows VERY swift rise to power and his subsequent attack on the Republic after being found by a pair of force sensatives. Unfortunatly the areas where this sith empire WAS has been found by the time of the Sith War with Exar Kun's involvement. Korribon and Ziost were two of the major planets in the Sith Empire at that time."

Reply: Yes.

 

Calax said, "From what I understand in Lore the Sith of the great Hyperspace war, the Sith War, the Jedi Civil war, and the Clone Wars, were all VERY different from one another. it's not that Sith remain between the ages but rather that their artifacts remain for new "scholars" to arrive and "discover" them and promptly become the new crop of Sith Lords. Their take on what they have to do as ordered by their artifacts or Ghost Masters might be completly different from the others, but the basic tennants are always the same because the Sith are ALWAYS power hungry and backstabbing. It's how they learned to survive."

 

Reply: Yes.

 

Calax said, "1708 didn't have much happening. but in america everyone goes over at least somthing that happened in 1608 400 years ago. and that was when Jamestown had John Smith elected as Mayor, and in October a supply ship arrived to find a grand total of 38 people. We don't discuss what happened based on how long ago it happened we discuss it based upon momentus happenings. I think that the Jedi Civil war and related actions would constitute a chapter in a history book. My guess is that in the Republic at least the fact that Revan and the Exile dissapeared into the unknown regions is a simple historical footnote and nothing more will be said. IF they had anything happen with the Exile or Revan they'd have to define the character which would ruin it for fans because then Revan HAS to be X Y and Z for the story to work."

 

Reply: Think of it in relation to more modern times. World War II was an EPIC war was it not? Some would call it good versus evil. Freedom versus Tyranny and oppression. How much do people on the street talk about world war II? It is still mostly kept to history text books, etc. Occasionally, as mentioned above, historians will discuss the aspects of it in detail. Even 9/11 isn't talked about that much anymore. Whenever it is brought up it is usually sympathized, and then not talked about a short period afterward. Thats why you don't hear people in the Star Wars movies talking about any of the past conflicts, it doesn't interest them because it was before they were even born. (Yoda is an exception, because he's old. But he doesn't talk about stuff in the movies, I'm sure he uses it in the training of Jedi however, although we don't see how he trains them).

 

Calax said, "Don't say that WoW hasn't changed because of the books and related material. Usually the books go over somthing that happened that had NOTHING to do with what was happening in WoW. And even then characters from the books were incorperated into the game world. Also the WoW Comic brought the humans back their king which is a pretty big thing considering it kills an entire quest line.

 

Anyway, The Sith should have an emperor, it is an Empire after all. The easiest way to pick the emperor is the Dark Lord of the Sith. the Sith's leader has always been the reigning Dark Lord. I personally think that it would be stupid to say that the Sith entered a Civil war because of Revan mettling in their affairs. It would take him years to be accepted by the sith if he were following the Light path (as most promotions are based around the superiors death by the promoted). And I sincerely doubt that Revan will come back as the Sith emperor given he'd have to live 300 years which IMHO is quite stupid and it would again define revan. If you Define revan the amounts of Nerd Rage that will pour out from fans of Revan will probably kill one of the bioware writers."

 

Reply: "Usually the books go over something that happened that had nothing to do with what was happening in WoW" - Exactly. Luke Skywalker, Count Dooku, Jango Feet, Boba Fett, are incorporated in Battle Front, but there presence doesn't shatter any plot lines of hte movies.

 

And yes, I wasn't trying the Sith shouldn't have an emperor, itd be hard for me to imagine a Sith democracy lol. Ok what civil war are you talking about? The one that is taking place in KOTOR I? Because in SWTOR, its not a civil war, its a side against a side, Republic vs. Sith. Regardless, if you are talking about the latter, what makes you think the Sith only started a war because I said it was possible that Revan caused chaos and splinter factions to evolve within the Sith ranks 300 years earlier? They are Sith afterall, and if the Sith have an enemy, they attack that enemy. Revan being the actual emperor is just a theory. It could be a plethora of things. Revan could've had a nihilus type presence form much like the exile did, and that is who is leading these Sith. We don't know yet. However, it is possible for Force Sensitives to prolong their lives large amounts of time. I don't believe it is stupid at all. You might as well say its stupid that Yoda is 900 years old.

 

Also, who's to say the Sith followed Revan to the light? We have no way of knowing until KOTOR III is made. But I think its impossible for brainwashed Sith (who haven't had their minds erased like Revan), to willingly give up their power.

 

Calax said, "LucasArts has Axed their independent thought brigade of developers and probably wouldn't try to bring it back. They aren't even the primary developers on this project, Bioware is. Bioware makes the story and everything and lucasarts just rubberstamps it if it doesn't blatently contradict something that has already been published. From everything I've been reading Bioware decided that Kotor 2 was not worth mentioning. They've dropped it probably because it'd be hard to have a Jedi Order that's worth anything after it had been wiped out and rebuilt only 300 years before. Especially considering that a Sith Empire would have the advantage of Men and Material in a war with the Order and the Republic given that the republic had to recover from 2 Galactic wars within 50 years of each other. They might have been able to build back up but they had no real reason to given that their borders weren't being threatened by anything and large corporations generally hired their own mercs. I never played Matrix online or LOTR online but I did play Star Wars and it did tamper with the plot in the early stages. Originally there was a running plot line that went one way or the other based upon the actions of the players in the game. This died out pretty quickly because it was one sided the Alliances way the entire time.

Meanwhile World of Warcraft has been advancing it's story pretty steadly for what it is. From the perspective of the game all the pre60 content was 2 years ago, the 60 to 70 content was one year ago (this includes the deaths of Kael'thas Vasj and Illidan) and he 80 content is current (with the return of the king of Stormwind)"

 

Reply: LucasArts axed their developers? Yes Bioware is the primary developer, but think of Bioware's reputation. You think they are dumb enough to ruin a plot? All their games are mostly plot, occasional fights, then more amazing plot. They may think KOTOR II is not worth mentioning, but that still doesn't give them the right to ruin its plot. If LucasArts wants to axe KOTOR II's plot (sadface), then they would've done it already, or canceled the launch of hte game. I'm afraid I don't understand what you mean about a Jedi Order thats worth anything. Might as well say the Jedi Order in the movies shouldn't have existed then, because it had been wiped out a couple of times in the past. The Jedi Order rebuilt, like it always does, after it is nearly completely eradicated. Yes, in Star Wars Galaxies, you got to choose which path you followed, it advanced a plotline for YOUR CHARACTER, not for Luke Skywalker, or Darth Vader. You don't end up killing the Emperor and then the plot of hte movies is ruined.

Edited November 16, 2008 by Albion72

[Jediphile]

The sith that appeared during the great hyperspace war were the original sith aka the TRUE Sith.

 

This is at the heart of the problem because it depends on what you mean by the term Sith - do you mean the extremist dark side users or do you mean the origin of the name itself? The Sith was originally a species of its own, but - and this is where lots of fanon gets it wrong - that race was never a powerful group of dark side users. The Sith grew into the dark side users opposing the jedi order only after a group of dark jedi fallen from the jedi order turned on the order and were subsequently exiled after the Hundred Years Darkness. They came to Korriban around 6900 BBY, almost 2000 years before the KotOR games. The Sith species bowed to them and became their slaves. Hence "Dark Lord of the Sith". They intermarried and interbred with the Sith species until there were practically no pure sith species left. From this emerged the Sith Empire over the next millennia, until Naga Sadow became the dark lord in competition with Ludo Kressh around 5000 BBY. As leader Sadow attacked the Republic as revenge against the jedi. This was the Great Hyperspace War, which ended with the fall of the Sith Empire, as the Republic fought back when the feud between Kressh and Sadow left their empire open to a devastating attack from the Republic with the apparent fall of the empire as a result. Now it seems the empire survived for another millennia rebuilding its forces somehow.

 

Unfortunatly the areas where this sith empire WAS has been found by the time of the Sith War with Exar Kun's involvement. Korribon and Ziost were two of the major planets in the Sith Empire at that time.

 

Not so sure about that. Korriban was found, yes - it's right there in the KotOR games, and the the Daragons found it. But it's unclear to which part of the Sith Empire the Republic fleet pursued Sadow during the war, since no name of a system is ever mention in the last "Fall of the Sith Empire" issue. According to Wookieepedia, the battle was indeed fought at Korriban (which makes sense, sense Gav Daragon would have those coordinates to give the Republic, having found his way there himself, while Sadow would not have given him other coordinates, seeing as how much he keeps him in the dark). Then again, Wookieepedia only gives "Tales of the Jedi: Fall of the Sith Empire #5" as the source, and I cannot find Korriban mentioned as the battleground in that issue...

 

But while Korriban was undoubtedly "exposed" to the Republic, we don't know how much the Republic learned about other Sith worlds such as Ziost.

 

There is so much you can learn and find out about from a Single-Player KOTOR 3 that I wouldn't even know where to begin to explain. As I stated, Revan, the Jedi Civil War, the Mandalorian Wars, and the Sith will probably be talked about in the MMORPG. Think of it in relation to our world. 300 years ago it was 1708. How much do we talk about that time period?

 

Comparaing real world history and Star Wars history is always problematic, especially in this case, since the industrialisation and development of significant technology lies in that very period of real world history with all the consequent changes that came with it, such as airplanes changing the rules of war and what not. Compare to the 300 years prior in the real world - 1408 to 1708 - then compare to how different Star Wars looks in KotOR and then in the movies era, which is 4000 years later. Both have jedi and sith fighting for the galaxy, both have struggles between galactic institutions over entire star systems and worlds, both have fleets of capital ships locked in combat, and both have starfighters as integral parts of those. Sure, shields and weapons and other technology have evolved, but it's not so easy to spot if you compare KotOR1 to the original movies. The lightsabers and weapons look very similar, and just how different is the Ebon Hawk to the Millennium Falcon?

 

IF they had anything happen with the Exile or Revan they'd have to define the character which would ruin it for fans because then Revan HAS to be X Y and Z for the story to work.

 

Agreed, which is why we're unlikely to hear about Revan and Exile ever again now, except in some footnote of a story or as an obscure part of some other Star Wars lore.

 

Anyway, The Sith should have an emperor, it is an Empire after all. The easiest way to pick the emperor is the Dark Lord of the Sith. the Sith's leader has always been the reigning Dark Lord.

 

Right. An empire has a leader, or it isn't an empire. That is usually an emperor or empress. I think only the title "Dark Lord of the Sith" is used the "Golden Age of the Sith" and "Fall of the Sith Empire" comic books, but it doesn't matter since it serves the same pupose. "Lord of Rome" would have been fine for the Roman Empire, if they didn't like the term "emperor".

 

I personally think that it would be stupid to say that the Sith entered a Civil war because of Revan mettling in their affairs. It would take him years to be accepted by the sith if he were following the Light path (as most promotions are based around the superiors death by the promoted).

 

Well, by the time TSL begins, he has already been gone for four years, and Kreia still tells us the "true" Sith are lurking out there and Revan left to fight them in his own way... So it's not as if he didn't have the time for that, if it was his plan.

 

And I sincerely doubt that Revan will come back as the Sith emperor given he'd have to live 300 years which IMHO is quite stupid and it would again define revan. If you Define revan the amounts of Nerd Rage that will pour out from fans of Revan will probably kill one of the bioware writers.

 

Precisely. Messing with people's perception of Revan is problematic. In fact, Revan will be a problem either way, because some insist on seeing him as LS, some as Darth Revan reborn, some as female, etc... Whatever you choose, someone will be miffed somewhere. In TSL they understood this so much that they made both Revan's gender and alignment completely optional and based on the player's chosen dialogue.

 

I'm sorry, I'm kind of jumping around with all kinds of theories. But I just think that because an MMO says that Sith from the region Revan left to are attacking the Republic means that Revan and the Exile suffered a humiliating defeat and nothing was accomplished is kind of lame. LucasArts is not without thinking minds.

 

True, but what they are thinking about probably i$n't plot, if I were to venture a gue$$. If they can rake in the dough by abandoning the $ingle-player CRPG completely for MMOney, then that'$ probably what they'll do.

 

From everything I've been reading Bioware decided that Kotor 2 was not worth mentioning.

 

I wish I could agree with that, but the fact that the returning Sith Empire is the very "true Sith" that Revan left to fight means that TSL is very much at the heart of this new MMO. The "true" Sith entirely TSL's invention - there is no mentioning of it in KotOR1.

 

EDIT:

LucasArts axed their developers?

 

K3 was being planned before TSL was even released, but the plans were axed.

Edited November 16, 2008 by Jediphile

[DeathScepter]

but still no matter how we(at least I) look at this, Kotor MMO sucks.