BioWare/Lucas Arts game unveiled Oct 21

[Hurlshort]

I'm not quite sure where everyone is getting this data that SWG was a spectacular failure. I think I remember when it was released that it sold fairly well. The failure was in its inability to maintain those subscriptions.

 

WoW also didn't sell 15 million copies overnight. It took a few months for it to fully blossom, and the real amazing part is how much of a subscriber base it has managed to retain. Word of mouth and good advertising made it into a phenomenon.

 

The MMO market has grown a lot since WoW was released, so I think it's reasonable to guess that eventually another MMO will take over their incredible numbers. Heck, Age of Conan sold over a million copies in the first month. But they weren't able to hang onto those numbers and now it's floundering. I think it's very likely a SW MMO will sell in large numbers, but it will only beat WoW numbers by growing after release and maintain its subscription base.

 

It's also good to remember that there are plenty of profitable MMO's working in the shadow of WoW and having no problems. I'm not sure what the business plan will be for Bio/EA/LA here, but I doubt they need to get anywhere near WoW numbers to turn a profit.

[Maria Caliban]

I'm not quite sure where everyone is getting this data that SWG was a spectacular failure. I think I remember when it was released that it sold fairly well. The failure was in its inability to maintain those subscriptions.

 

That is a spectacular failure. A single player game might be judged on how many units are sold, but a MMORPG is about retaining and gaining customers over time.

[Pidesco]

I'd say Star Wars is about the worst setting possible for an MMO. It can't work when everybody wants to be a jedi.

 

Are there any Jedi jawas?

[alanschu]

I think that's why the old republic works, because you can have more Jedi.

 

I'm curious if you'll have people explore non-Jedi options since they'll be more different (whereas in SWG, they were so rare that everybody wanted to be one!)

[Maria Caliban]

I'd say Star Wars is about the worst setting possible for an MMO. It can't work when everybody wants to be a jedi.

 

I'm going to disagree. Say everyone is a force user - how many is that per server? 25,000 divided among Jedi and Sith plus the force using NPCs, but Star Wars is supposed to be an entire galaxy. Even if every PC is a Jedi/Sith, they'd still make up a small part of the galaxy's total population.

[Darque]

WoW is a beast. The chance of another mmorpg getting those kind of numbers is low. Although, if any IP has a chance to do so, it is probably Star Wars. Doesn't every dork on the planet want to be a jedi or a sith or Han Solo?

 

 

Then why did SWG crash and burn so spectacularly?

 

It was a badly run and designed MMO.

 

Sadly true.

[Pidesco]

I'd say Star Wars is about the worst setting possible for an MMO. It can't work when everybody wants to be a jedi.

 

I'm going to disagree. Say everyone is a force user - how many is that per server? 25,000 divided among Jedi and Sith plus the force using NPCs, but Star Wars is supposed to be an entire galaxy. Even if every PC is a Jedi/Sith, they'd still make up a small part of the galaxy's total population.

 

You just have to imagine that there are a trillion NPCs on each serverwho, completely by coincidence, never show up anywhere.

[Slowtrain]

As MC says, if a MMORPG fails to maintain its initial numbers then it is mostly a failure. One can expect any new MMORPG to generate some initial attention as people go to try it out. SO the pressure is on any new developer in the MMORPG market to put out a really high quality product right from the start since they have to hold the initial subscriptions then build from there. If people start deserting and returning to whatever they were playing before, then the game is lost.

 

I'm not saying no game can compete with WoW. That would be ridiculous. And I do think this one has as good as shot as anything.

 

It's a risky and ambitious move though. It's a big investment to create something that can compete with something as entrenched as WoW. ANd of course, it puts pressure on WoW to upgrade its own game, since WoW doesn't want to lose any subscribers that they already have.

 

A big question is how many gamers will be willing to pay multiple monthly subscription fees for mmorpgs on an ongoing basis. How many mmorpgs can one realistically play at a time?

 

MMORPGS also generally have long life spans. Gamers play the same one for quite a long time. In the single player market, people play games for a week or so, then are ready for a new one. There's a lot more potential for breaking in new titles there.

[Hurlshort]

I'm not quite sure where everyone is getting this data that SWG was a spectacular failure. I think I remember when it was released that it sold fairly well. The failure was in its inability to maintain those subscriptions.

 

That is a spectacular failure. A single player game might be judged on how many units are sold, but a MMORPG is about retaining and gaining customers over time.

 

I don't think I worded that right. I was more trying to point out that SWG didn't fail because of the setting. The setting helped it sell well at release. Like others have stated, it was badly designed and that killed it.

[alanschu]

I actually think that people are okay with moving on past WoW. They just need to find something that they enjoy more.

[Dark_Raven]

This is doomed to failure.

[WILL THE ALMIGHTY]

This is doomed to failure.

Good new for us, then.

[Dark_Raven]

[Aristes]

I'd say Star Wars is about the worst setting possible for an MMO. It can't work when everybody wants to be a jedi.

 

I'm going to disagree. Say everyone is a force user - how many is that per server? 25,000 divided among Jedi and Sith plus the force using NPCs, but Star Wars is supposed to be an entire galaxy. Even if every PC is a Jedi/Sith, they'd still make up a small part of the galaxy's total population.

 

No one cares that everyone around them is totally awesome and tubular. Hell, that's not just MMORPGs. Look at the Forgotten Realms setting for DnD.

[Hurlshort]

KotOR at least has set the stage for different classes of Jedi. That will play into an MMO better than SWG, which made it very difficult to become a Jedi.

[Deadly_Nightshade]

...made it very difficult to become a Jedi.

 

That's the only good thing they ever did for the MMO; but, sadly, they caved into the whining Jedi fanbois.

[Magister Lajciak]

This is doomed to failure.

Good new for us, then.

 

Come on now - we all know that SWOR will be commercially very successful. I don't like the fact that they are making that instead of KOTOR 3 any more than you do, but I don't doubt that they will make vast sums of money from the game.

[Maria Caliban]

I'd say Star Wars is about the worst setting possible for an MMO. It can't work when everybody wants to be a jedi.

 

I'm going to disagree. Say everyone is a force user - how many is that per server? 25,000 divided among Jedi and Sith plus the force using NPCs, but Star Wars is supposed to be an entire galaxy. Even if every PC is a Jedi/Sith, they'd still make up a small part of the galaxy's total population.

 

You just have to imagine that there are a trillion NPCs on each serverwho, completely by coincidence, never show up anywhere.

 

How is being a Jedi different from being a Mage?

 

There will be tons of non-Jedi NPCs. You will probably slaughter thousands of them as you progress in the game. SW:TOR is about playing a hero in a galaxy of regular folk. Yep, 80% of PCs will be lightsaber wielding, but the idea is that the PCs are not the only people in the galaxy.

[Magister Lajciak]

I'd say Star Wars is about the worst setting possible for an MMO. It can't work when everybody wants to be a jedi.

 

I'm going to disagree. Say everyone is a force user - how many is that per server? 25,000 divided among Jedi and Sith plus the force using NPCs, but Star Wars is supposed to be an entire galaxy. Even if every PC is a Jedi/Sith, they'd still make up a small part of the galaxy's total population.

 

You just have to imagine that there are a trillion NPCs on each serverwho, completely by coincidence, never show up anywhere.

 

How is being a Jedi different from being a Mage?

 

There will be tons of non-Jedi NPCs. You will probably slaughter thousands of them as you progress in the game. SW:TOR is about playing a hero in a galaxy of regular folk. Yep, 80% of PCs will be lightsaber wielding, but the idea is that the PCs are not the only people in the galaxy.

 

I think the point they are trying to make is that Jedi are supposed to be rare. In a single player game, if a player plays a Jedi, that is the player's unique experience, because the only other characters in the game, the NPCs, reflect the appropriate structure of the population for the setting. In MMOs, however, players interact with numerous other players... thus drastically altering the perception of 'rarity' of the Jedi. Of course, the same problem can occur in MMOs in other genres with popular characters that are supposed to be rare.

[Maria Caliban]

I think the point they are trying to make is that Jedi are supposed to be rare. In a single player game, if a player plays a Jedi, that is the player's unique experience, because the only other characters in the game, the NPCs, reflect the appropriate structure of the population for the setting. In MMOs, however, players interact with numerous other players... thus drastically altering the perception of 'rarity' of the Jedi. Of course, the same problem can occur in MMOs in other genres with popular characters that are supposed to be rare.

 

I can understand that somewhat, but part of me wonders if the 'problem' is more a single-player one. Both KotORs did backflips to make the PC a unique and special snowflake who was oh-so awesome and powerful. I don't think a MMO is about being a unique and special snowflake.

 

If people want to play Jedi, they will. If it means grinding for 55 levels and to open up a new slot, that's what they'll do and 80% of the server will still be Jedis. I think it's better to let people be Jedis right off the bat, and then construct the game with that in mind.

 

Yes, Jedis won't be as rare in as in the movies. They're at their height right now and both the Jedi and the Sith are scouring the galaxy for anyone with a hint of force ability as they know there's going to be another war soon. Try to make a huge enough environment so you're not constantly bumping into other players and create a large number of single-player instances for the storytelling parts.

 

The thing is that I, personally, don't get why there being several thousand Jedi on a server is bothersome. It's right up there with people complaining that guns don't degrade in most FPS and health potions instantaneously give you life back for me.

[alanschu]

It sounds like the start of the Jedi career will be on Typhon, which sounds like fun. Hopefully a bit more involved training than KOTOR's was.

[Maria Caliban]

Has typhon been in the setting previously? (Not SW knowledgeable)

[Aristes]

I'll go one more, Maria. The fact that making it to Jedi in SWG was undoubtedly part of what killed the game. No matter how much the purists scream, making it hard to be a Jedi at start will help sell this game. There will be far fewer people angry about that decision than would have been angry that they had to wait to create a Jedi. I think that's what Hurlshot meant up above, and so I will just add my voice to his.

[Maria Caliban]

I'll go one more, Maria. The fact that making it to Jedi in SWG was undoubtedly part of what killed the game. No matter how much the purists scream, making it hard to be a Jedi at start will help sell this game. There will be far fewer people angry about that decision than would have been angry that they had to wait to create a Jedi. I think that's what Hurlshot meant up above, and so I will just add my voice to his.

 

Yes, but SW:TOR isn't SWG. Even if it was, it's impossible to know how much letting someone be a Jedi at level 1 hurt the game because:

 

1. SWG was already doing poorly.

2. The people who were most upset about that feature were the ones who had already played the game for years and liked Jedis being hard. (This is like bringing a steak to a vegetarian potluck.)

3. Older subscribers had all their hard work invalidated.

4. They added that feature with a large number of other, massive changes

5. The community reacted poorly to almost all of these changes.

 

I'd say that these factors make it difficult to determine how the Jedi being a base class in SW:TOR will affect the game.

 

In which I try to speak honestly about history...

Edited October 24, 2008 by Maria Caliban

[Aristes]

I disagree. I think the fact that they failed to implement the feature in the first place was a mistake. Sure, after they'd established the mistake, the old guard didn't like the change. That's all well and good. Why was it doing so poorly in the first place and why did they think adding the feature would help? I think they drove away their best chance of developing a loyal fanbase with their initial decision. It's all moot now, but I suggest that they would have fared better if they had appealed to the folks who just wanted to grab a lightsaber as soon as possible and hack on folks. That doesn't mean give it to them at level 1, necessarily, although it could mean that. It does mean making the path to Jedi goodness fairly quick. FWIW, I doubt if I play the game at all. I liked KotORs one and two, but it's not the setting for the MMORPG I want to play. I'd rather have KotOR three like most of the rest of these people.

 

Now, if they could come up with a WH40K MMORPG and get it to work, I'd love that.