Long rant on RPGs and comments on Obsidian

[kalniel]

I'd like to remind people that Mass Effect's side content is filler of the worst kind. Functionally, you basically visit the same planet dozens of time, using a moon buggy that controls like ass, and yet provides no challenge whatsoever.

Yes, absolutely agreed. Fallout 3 is a better example of how to do a shorter main quest and yet also decent side quests.

[Magister Lajciak]

Well, it does save me about $180 overall on Mass Effect alone.

Why do you need DRM to save money on games? If you want to save money, just don't play games at all - you'll save lots that way

 

I don't need DRM to save money on games, but it does save me money if you see what I mean. Basically, I buy games that meet my criteria - I don't set myself a specific budget, but my criteria are pretty strict. DDRM automatically puts a game below those criteria, so it saves me money in that way - it is not as good as if the games exceeded my criteria, but it has this ancillary benefit.

[Magister Lajciak]

Functionally, you basically visit the same planet dozens of time, using a moon buggy that controls like ass, and yet provides no challenge whatsoever.

 

Ugh, that sounds pretty terrible!

[kalniel]

I don't need DRM to save money on games, but it does save me money if you see what I mean. Basically, I buy games that meet my criteria - I don't set myself a specific budget, but my criteria are pretty strict. DDRM automatically puts a game below those criteria, so it saves me money in that way - it is not as good as if the games exceeded my criteria, but it has this ancillary benefit.

Yeah I know what you mean, and completely respect that viewpoint (of DRM being part of a criteria whether to play the game or not). We all have are own criteria that we use to decide whether to play a game or not. No The Sims for me

[Magister Lajciak]

I don't need DRM to save money on games, but it does save me money if you see what I mean. Basically, I buy games that meet my criteria - I don't set myself a specific budget, but my criteria are pretty strict. DDRM automatically puts a game below those criteria, so it saves me money in that way - it is not as good as if the games exceeded my criteria, but it has this ancillary benefit.

Yeah I know what you mean, and completely respect that viewpoint (of DRM being part of a criteria whether to play the game or not). We all have are own criteria that we use to decide whether to play a game or not. No The Sims for me

 

Thanks - yes we all have different criteria and place a different emphasis on each criterion. I am not sure I understand the Sims reference though - is it just to indicate your criteria, or is there some hidden meaning? I guess that might be because I have not played the Sims...

[pcrk2]

I have faith in Obsidian that they know what fans want and what is right for their games. I hope they will not be ruined as BioWare is...

[Magister Lajciak]

I don't think BioWare is ruined. I like both BioWare and Obsidian - they both made great games!

[pcrk2]

their acquisition by EA will surely have an impact on the games... sooner or later

and they haven't made a very good game for a long time

Mass Effect, Jade Empire... average RPG's, KotOR a better one but still it can't be compared to Obsidian's TSL

and about the future... i'm not sure how much Dragon Age is Baldur's Gate successor...

and SW: ToR... I do not believe they can make what are saying

All companies say that the game are making is the best, it's revolutionary and stuff like this... every single one... but only a few manage to deliver it

Edited November 7, 2008 by pcrk2

[Magister Lajciak]

Well, I am looking forward to Dragon Age and expect that it will live up to its promise. EA has gotten better at leaving development teams alone and supporting them to produce quality products - this is not your old EA anymore, though they do have some anti-customer policies such as DDRM.

[pcrk2]

hope you're right

[Magister Lajciak]

hope you're right

 

Yeah, they pretty much used to assimilate and destroy the studios they acquired, but now they allow them to retain their corporate identity and be relatively independent.

[kalniel]

Thanks - yes we all have different criteria and place a different emphasis on each criterion. I am not sure I understand the Sims reference though - is it just to indicate your criteria, or is there some hidden meaning? I guess that might be because I have not played the Sims...

Purely an indication of something that fails my criteria

 

I agree with you about modern EA too. I'd argue that Mass Effect is a better Bioware game than some of their older ones too (Jade Empire for example).

Edited November 7, 2008 by kalniel

[pcrk2]

Yes Mass Effect is better than Jade Empire but that's it... KotOR was better than ME

[Amentep]

Functionally, you basically visit the same planet dozens of time, using a moon buggy that controls like ass, and yet provides no challenge whatsoever.

 

Ugh, that sounds pretty terrible!

 

I dunno, it wasn't that bad, although I found myself humming the theme from "Moon Patrol" while playing...

 

While most of the planets are similar, they're relatively easy to break up between the main quests without finding them monotonous.

 

The vehicle did control like ass though.

[framerate]

Thank you for actually offering your ideas and complains in a constructive fashion. I get very annoyed with people (in general) who like to just go on rants for no reason and rip someone's hard work apart without offering any good solutions.

 

Not all problems have solutions and it's hard for a company to not have it's share of problems. I like to think we here are very aware of the problems and limitations of our past, present and future games and we are working very hard to find solutions.

 

From the inside perspective, I really do think the OEI is very committed to making top notch original RPG's. The RPG market *is* very stale. As good as it was, I couldn't even play Oblivion because I was so burned out on fantasy text and epic dragon battles that seem to follow fun little delivery quests time and time again. But I LOVE Storm of Zehir. (and to be fair I hope to go back and play Oblivion).

 

I think we've made a really great game with this expansion, and like Mask of the Betrayer perhaps it would have been better suited for a standalone title. But we have 2 other standalone titles in the works that I hope will carry the tradition of being really solid RPG's for you guys.

 

Rest assured, we're trying.

[Magister Lajciak]

Thanks - yes we all have different criteria and place a different emphasis on each criterion. I am not sure I understand the Sims reference though - is it just to indicate your criteria, or is there some hidden meaning? I guess that might be because I have not played the Sims...

Purely an indication of something that fails my criteria

 

Fair enough!

 

I agree with you about modern EA too. I'd argue that Mass Effect is a better Bioware game than some of their older ones too (Jade Empire for example).

 

Yeah, EA used to be pretty bad with the studios it acquired, but it has learned its lesson and now lets them mostly manage themselves. It has actually become pretty innovative and good at creating new IPs or injecting quality into existing ones.

[Magister Lajciak]

Functionally, you basically visit the same planet dozens of time, using a moon buggy that controls like ass, and yet provides no challenge whatsoever.

 

Ugh, that sounds pretty terrible!

 

I dunno, it wasn't that bad, although I found myself humming the theme from "Moon Patrol" while playing...

 

While most of the planets are similar, they're relatively easy to break up between the main quests without finding them monotonous.

 

The vehicle did control like ass though.

 

I guess I am somewhat startled. BioWare usually tends to emphasize the story and does not believe in extraneous content.

[WILL THE ALMIGHTY]

Functionally, you basically visit the same planet dozens of time, using a moon buggy that controls like ass, and yet provides no challenge whatsoever.

 

Ugh, that sounds pretty terrible!

 

I dunno, it wasn't that bad, although I found myself humming the theme from "Moon Patrol" while playing...

 

While most of the planets are similar, they're relatively easy to break up between the main quests without finding them monotonous.

 

The vehicle did control like ass though.

 

I guess I am somewhat startled. BioWare usually tends to emphasize the story and does not believe in extraneous content.

In any case the endgame is amazing stuff, especially

Ilos[ and the Citade

. The game has some great moments, and the sidequests don't ruin it (what with being optional). I might complain a lot about Bioware, but they make damn good games.

[Magister Lajciak]

OK, so as I understand it so far:

 

Main quest: excellent but relatively short

Sidequests: optional and long but boring

[Magister Lajciak]

Thank you for actually offering your ideas and complains in a constructive fashion. I get very annoyed with people (in general) who like to just go on rants for no reason and rip someone's hard work apart without offering any good solutions.

 

Not all problems have solutions and it's hard for a company to not have it's share of problems. I like to think we here are very aware of the problems and limitations of our past, present and future games and we are working very hard to find solutions.

 

From the inside perspective, I really do think the OEI is very committed to making top notch original RPG's. The RPG market *is* very stale. As good as it was, I couldn't even play Oblivion because I was so burned out on fantasy text and epic dragon battles that seem to follow fun little delivery quests time and time again. But I LOVE Storm of Zehir. (and to be fair I hope to go back and play Oblivion).

 

I think we've made a really great game with this expansion, and like Mask of the Betrayer perhaps it would have been better suited for a standalone title. But we have 2 other standalone titles in the works that I hope will carry the tradition of being really solid RPG's for you guys.

 

Rest assured, we're trying.

 

Thanks for the love! I also love it when my gaming framerate is good. (sorry, I couldn't resist!)

 

I want to say that I think the improvements in quality in Obsidian's games really do show as one progresses from your oldest games to your newest. The Mask of the Betrayer is just top notch.

 

If I were to have another suggestion, apart from those I already stated earlier in the thread, it would be to concentrate on your main strengths: story and dialogue. This is a great asset of Obsidian and I hope you will keep putting it to good use rather than trying to create games that concentrate on other things. Good luck and let me say that I am already awaiting the Storm of Zehir with anticipation!

[Pidesco]

OK, so as I understand it so far:

 

Main quest: excellent but relatively short

Sidequests: optional and long but boring

 

 

I'm not sure I'd call the main quest excellent. I'd say the main quest is competent. It's a shorter KOTOR with better combat. Of course, competent can go a long way when compared to much of the stuff that's usually released.

 

Also, the exposition through dialogue can be pretty atrocious.

[Magister Lajciak]

OK, so as I understand it so far:

 

Main quest: excellent but relatively short

Sidequests: optional and long but boring

 

 

I'm not sure I'd call the main quest excellent. I'd say the main quest is competent.

 

OK - fair enough.

 

It's a shorter KOTOR with better combat. Of course, competent can go a long way when compared to much of the stuff that's usually released.

 

As to combat, is it dependent on the player's reflexes or on the in-game statistics of the character or on both?

 

Also, the exposition through dialogue can be pretty atrocious.

 

Ouch - dialogue used to be one of BioWare's strong points. Hopefully, this will not carry through to other BioWare games, such as Dragon Age.

[Stephen Amber]

Whatever the misteps it has to be disconcerting to see Bethesda rake in 300 million, in a week's time, when they had the fallout license and didn't do anything with it... at a time when cash was their biggest problem ironically.

[Pidesco]

It's a shorter KOTOR with better combat. Of course, competent can go a long way when compared to much of the stuff that's usually released.

 

As to combat, is it dependent on the player's reflexes or on the in-game statistics of the character or on both?

 

Also, the exposition through dialogue can be pretty atrocious.

 

Ouch - dialogue used to be one of BioWare's strong points. Hopefully, this will not carry through to other BioWare games, such as Dragon Age.

 

 

The combat is dependent on both player skills and character stats .

 

 

As for the dialogue, I think the crappiness derives mostly from the fact that they voice all of the main character's lines, both male and female. Due to this, Bioware was forced to reduce PC's lines to a minimum, which turns the "conversations" into idiotic interrogations where most of the player's lines are a variation of "Tell me about whatever", with the NPCs unloading info on the player as mechanically as possible. It's the kind of design decision Bioware has been making more and more.

 

 

As Dragon Age won't have voiced PC lines, I'm hoping Bioware won't screw it up all over again.

[kalniel]

As to combat, is it dependent on the player's reflexes or on the in-game statistics of the character or on both?

Both - skills determine accuracy, but you still have to point in the right direction. You can adjust the amount of aiming help. There are various spell-like abilities too.

 

Ouch - dialogue used to be one of BioWare's strong points. Hopefully, this will not carry through to other BioWare games, such as Dragon Age.

I don't agree here - I think the dialogue in ME is actually some of Bioware's finest. It is very cinematic, which means it is less like you making lots of different choices and instead more like an interactive movie. The timing works really well and it flows better than any other conversation system I've seen yet. The characters are also some of the best - there are the odd annoying cheesy Bioware NPC type, but there is some wonderful subtlety to others.

 

 

Whatever the misteps it has to be disconcerting to see Bethesda rake in 300 million, in a week's time, when they had the fallout license and didn't do anything with it... at a time when cash was their biggest problem ironically.

Which 'they' are you talking about? Interplay? Bethesda have done a great job - there was a time when they were a relatively small studio, but they've managed to stick to making games the way they want and I think their recent success is fantastic. Something I definitely think Obsidian can emulate and probably will just so long as the market doesn't go against them.