Long rant on RPGs and comments on Obsidian

[Magister Lajciak]

Good to hear that! When you speak of the next two titles, does that include the Storm of Zehir?

 

That's an expansion, still stuck on the Neverwinter Nights 2 engine.

 

That's why I asked the question. NWN 2 engine does not preclude polish, though it might or might not hamper improvements in stability - I am not a programmer so I wouldn't know. It might also probably impede production values - at least in terms of graphics, as the engine is not new any more.

 

Still, I am looking forward to Storm of Zehir greatly and in fact hope for even more expansions after it!

[random n00b]

Sorry but this is absurd. BG2 has everything those games have and more.

For one, it didn't have 3D graphics.

 

Bah. A game could be 2d and 16-bit and still be better than the majority of modern games.

I was being deliberately facetious and literal.

 

If you want serious arguments though, NWN/2 have content creation toolsets, PW support, etc. Nothing in the BG games comes close to the potential of that.

 

And the majority of modern games are crap, but that doesn't mean a good game or two aren't made from time to time. The whole "golden past of gaming" tune is bogus and very boring.

Edited October 4, 2008 by random n00b

[Strix]

And the majority of modern games are crap, but that doesn't mean a good game or two aren't made from time to time.

 

I agree, there are a few gems, but -as you acknowledged- most games made recently are not worth the discs they're burned on. As for the "Baldur's Gate II is the best RPG" argument, I really don't care; I was not addressing that particular claim, or your rebuttal, but instead was making a general statement. However, if you seek my opinion, I would say that while it, BG2, was certainly a great game and continues to be a classic, it might not be the best role-playing game ever created.

[random n00b]

Fair enough, it seems I've mischaracterized you. I love BG2 myself and fire it up from time to time when the fancy strikes me... and I find a mod to make it worth the hassle. But statements in the shape of "X is tha best evar" are only valid as far as the taste of the person making it goes.

 

At any rate, I think the market being flooded with crap games is to be expected. Maybe the good:crap games ratio has decreased over the years, but the net amount of games worth playing per year has increased, I'd say. I remember some good old games, but certainly not 3-4 per year.

[Strix]

But statements in the shape of "X is tha best evar" are only valid as far as the taste of the person making it goes.

 

Exactly. The designation is subjective and thus can fluctuate from person-to-person.

Edited October 4, 2008 by Strix

[Volourn]

"Sorry but this is absurd. BG2 has everything those games have and more. Even its playing time is larger than all of them combined."

 

It's absurd that anyone would think that BG2 and esp0icially BG1 actualkly have more ROLE-P0LAYINg than BIO's newer games. It's not even a contest. BTW, longer does NOt equal role-playing superiority,

 

" I think even the guys from Bioware would be shocked to hear this."

 

That's their opinion, and I doubt every BIO emp0loyee has the same preferences. Afterall, there's like 300 of them. That said, BIO has gone on record to call NWN their most successful game ever.

 

"You're the first person I've seen in the last 7 years who would even venture to compare NWN and JE with BGII..."

 

Either you lived in a hole, or purposefully ignored people who have had different opinions than you. MANY people share my opinions. Many don't. *shrug*

 

Also, by me saying that JE is better at role-playing than BG/BG2 is NOT the same as me saying it's a better game. BG2 is a better game; but JE is a better RPG. Period.

[RPGmasterBoo]

So role playing equates to two dialogue choices, good/evil paths which lead to more or less the same result?

You're building a character (role playing) on the basis whether he choses two more or less irrelevant choices, so he's either open fist, jedi, paragon, or closed fist, sith, renegade? Not only is this completely detached from reality its, shallow and simplistic. Comic book/fairy tale style morality.

I'm just waiting to see when they are going to start colour coding the responses so that people wouldnt even have to read the dialogue anymore.

Not that there was much to read in ME.

 

But, this is all spamming, we're talking about Obsidian and who agrees on my other comments, or does not is unimportant.

 

Hell I've never seen a gamedev talking freely on a forum about the weaknesses or postitive sides of their games and I'would like this discussion to continue that way, constructively, about Obsidian.

Somebody asked J. E. Sawyer what he thought the qualities of their games were. I already said what I thought on the subject but it would be very nice to hear it from him.

 

>>> pokes J. E. Sawyer

[Humodour]

The intiitla post is wrong. How can one claim to be a RPG fan,a nd then hold BG2 up as the pentacle of the genre when BIO's presumed 'crappy' games all have far superior role-playing in them.

 

BG2 is an awesome game; but it is not a better RPG than ME, JE, NWN, or KOTOR. And, don't get me started on BG1. And, I say that as I love BG series.

 

 

 

" Games that are not fundamentally fun. That is, their core mechanics are not quickly enjoyable or do not have lasting value at a variety of difficulty levels."

 

They're fun enough that I look forward to your next game. *shrug*

 

 

"* Characters that are not visually appealing. This doesn't mean characters that are attractive, but certainly that's part of it."

Eh. Cool enough.

 

 

"* Poor overall production values, polish, and stability. Not much to say here"

 

Maybe not perfect; but poor is too strong of a word, imo.

 

Heaven forbid anybody have a divergent opinion about Bioware to you, Volourn.

[Volourn]

"But, this is all spamming, we're talking about Obsidian and who agrees on my other comments, or does not is unimportant."

 

Then why did you post it? Don't post stuff if you don't want people to respond.

 

I actually commented on the Obsidian stuff in this thread. YOU just convientlyignored that because you are too focused in bashing BIO games that are superior to BG2.

 

 

 

 

"So role playing equates to two dialogue choices, good/evil paths which lead to more or less the same result?

You're building a character (role playing) on the basis whether he choses two more or less irrelevant choices, so he's either open fist, jedi, paragon, or closed fist, sith, renegade? Not only is this completely detached from reality its, shallow and simplistic. Comic book/fairy tale style morality.

I'm just waiting to see when they are going to start colour coding the responses so that people wouldnt even have to read the dialogue anymore.

Not that there was much to read in ME."

 

Sounds like your precious BG2.

 

Nothing you wrote has shown thta BG2 is a better RPG than ME, or BIO's other recent RPGs. Not surprising because it's one area that BG2 will lose pretty much every time.

 

 

"Heaven forbid anybody have a divergent opinion about Bioware to you, Volourn."

 

Heaven forbid anybody have a divergent opinion about Bioware to you, Krezack.

 

P.S. You do realzie we're debating two BIO games right?

[Nightshape]

As a company, I believe our biggest weaknesses have been the following:

 

* Games that are not fundamentally fun. That is, their core mechanics are not quickly enjoyable or do not have lasting value at a variety of difficulty levels.

* Characters that are not visually appealing. This doesn't mean characters that are attractive, but certainly that's part of it.

* Poor overall production values, polish, and stability. Not much to say here.

 

I think we are realistically raising the bar on all of these issues on our next two titles, though obviously the proof is in the eating of the proverbial pudding.

 

I agree...

 

Edit: I have never felt that while playing an obsidian title to date that some sort of boundary in regards to RPG gameplay is being pressed. Standard gameplay with above average story telling.

 

Now that obsidian is working on in house technology(finally), things are I imagine due to change in regards to what can be achieved when it comes to gameplay, that's not withstanding the fact that they've had the oppertunity to seriously prototype new gameplay mechanics, my gods is prototyping an eye opener for gameplay.

Edited October 4, 2008 by Nightshape

[Humodour]

P.S. You do realzie we're debating two BIO games right?

 

You don't debate Volourn. You tell people they aren't allowed to hold a point of view you don't agree with.

 

He (understandably) feels BG2 is a superior RPG to NWN. Let him express that opinion without jumping down his throat.

 

The intiitla post is wrong. How can one claim to be a RPG fan,a nd then hold BG2 up as the pentacle of the genre when BIO's presumed 'crappy' games all have far superior role-playing in them.

[Nightshape]

LMFAO... This is Volo! Get real!

[RPGmasterBoo]

You don't debate Volourn. You tell people they aren't allowed to hold a point of view you don't agree with.

 

He (understandably) feels BG2 is a superior RPG to NWN. Let him express that opinion without jumping down his throat.

 

Its alright... I was somewhat similar to him when I was around 16,17. Since then I realised that its wrong to enter these sort of discussions where you can't really prove anything because everybodys mind is already made up. If I wrote an essay now on the merits of BG games, and succeded at showing how all the other games are inferior it wouldn't make any difference. Everybody is entitled to his own opinions, and like a friend of mine said "an opinion is like an ass -everybody has one"

 

It might be good to take a look why I think NWN (1) is a faliure because Oblivion continued this series.

 

Now I admit, I didn't follow the buzz around NWN, and when it came out I was attracted by the premise of a game similar to BG. After all, every box had "From the creators of Baldur's Gate" printed on it.

At first I liked it well enough, but by the end of the campaign it was the biggest RPG dissapointment of my life.

First of all when I buy a game I expect it to be a full game. NWN was a toolbox with a demo campaign, showcasing its abilities.

 

Its story, which started well progressively degraded into a total cliche. The few characters that existed in the game had meager storylines, and were either NPC quest PEZ dispensers, or cannon fodder (henchmen).

The lack of a party eradicated all the tactical options inherent to DnD gampelay (because DnD is not made for solo characters). This led to combat being rendered senseless, and borderline stupid since all you had to do was click on the enemy and wait for him to drop.

 

So NWN has:

- bad combat

- a bad storyline

- no real NPC's, no party

- no character development

- is too short

- is too easy

- is too linear

 

Actually, what exactly is good about NWN?

 

The graphics, and other techincal aspects? They haven't aged terribly well.

 

The toolbox? It is good. But I wasn't paying for a toolbox, I was paying for a game. If I wanted to create a game I would start my own studio, not buy a toolbox.

If the response of the community wasn't as good, NWN would have been total rubbish. Even with the response, ultimately its fan made content and you couldn't count on it. Alright so you had Bioware made campaigns and two expansions. But those cost money, and why would I pay again when I was cheated out of a real, full game once?

It took several years to make a worthwhile product out of NWN, by comparison BGII was such a product immidiately upon release.

[random n00b]

NWN is not one of my favourite games, but unlike you, I can see its strengths and see how those may be appreciated by other people - the fact that I don't like it does not make it the *inferior* game.

 

 

Its alright... I was somewhat similar to him when I was around 16,17.

Yeah, and now that you're 18, you are so above everyone else. I used to think that way when I was 18, too. Seriously man, if that's an example of the things you posted in BIO, it's not surprising you got such a nice response from the regulars there.

 

 

Since then I realised that its wrong to enter these sort of discussions where you can't really prove anything because everybodys mind is already made up. If I wrote an essay now on the merits of BG games, and succeded at showing how all the other games are inferior it wouldn't make any difference.

Maybe it has nothing to do with the fact that you are being as unreasonable as you accuse others of being, but simply because you are trying to objectively "prove" something which essentially depends on subjective perceptions.

 

 

- bad combat

This is simply not true. Sorry, combat was as good or better than BG's. The use of the 3rd ED ruleset accounts for it.

 

 

- no real NPC's, no party

No party, alright. On the other hand, NPCs were ostensibly better than those present in BG, as they bore the weight of the plot. I'm not talking party NPCs here, btw but the rest of the characters you encounter.

 

 

- is too short

No. NWN+SoU+HotU is a LONG game. Maybe not as long as BG2, but... that's probably the longest game I've played. Of course any other game compared to it is going to be "short".

 

 

- is too easy

Easier than BG/BG2? Where the only difficult encounters were achieved by blatantly cheating up the AI? Heh.

 

 

- is too linear

Yeah. More linear than BG, right? you can take the rose colored glasses off now. (thanks Hurlie!)

 

 

If I wanted to create a game I would start my own studio, not buy a toolbox.

Sure. Because everyone has the money, the time and the education needed to abandon whatever they are doing and set up a succesful game studio. And God forbid you like modding as a hobby!

 

 

Alright so you had Bioware made campaigns and two expansions. But those cost money, and why would I pay again when I was cheated out of a real, full game once?

You weren't cheated out of anything. If you didn't read up on what you were buying and the selling point for you was that "from the makers of BG" was stamped on the box, you have nobody to blame for your disappointment but yourself. The game delivered everyting it promised and more. Edited October 4, 2008 by random n00b

[Volourn]

"You don't debate Volourn. You tell people they aren't allowed to hold a point of view you don't agree with.

 

He (understandably) feels BG2 is a superior RPG to NWN. Let him express that opinion without jumping down his throat."

 

That's funny coming you. A guy who attacks me 9and others) whenever they say soemthing positive about NWN, and BIO.

 

And, this guy is no diffeent. Look at how he reacted when I gave my opinion on BG2's role-playing in comparison to BIO's newer games. He doesn't want a debate. He wants people to agree with him, and if they don't; he laughs and taunts them. *shrug* No worries.

 

 

 

"Its alright... I was somewhat similar to him when I was around 16,17."

 

Ahh.. The 'ol 'Because you disagree with me, you must be a young kid' trick. I forgive you.

 

 

"It might be good to take a look why I think NWN (1) is a faliure because Oblivion continued this series."

 

Ahh.. See, this is the problem. NWN is anything but a failure. It's BIO's most successful, and all your 'reasons' are opinions not facts even though you list them like they are facts.

 

 

"The lack of a party eradicated all the tactical options inherent to DnD gampelay (because DnD is not made for solo characters). This led to combat being rendered senseless, and borderline stupid since all you had to do was click on the enemy and wait for him to drop."

 

Great thing about D&D is it's design for variant p0lay. Afterall, there are 'official' D&D adventures specifically designed for SOLO play.

 

And, your description of NWN's combat is exactly how BG's combat worked except NWN gives you a heck of a lot more options. Afterall, ALL fighters can do in BG is click on enemies, and wait 'til they die.

[Magister Lajciak]

I have never felt that while playing an obsidian title to date that some sort of boundary in regards to RPG gameplay is being pressed. Standard gameplay with above average story telling.

 

I disagree. It is precisely through intertwining the story with the gameplay that Obsidian has pushed the boundary of RPGs in the Mask of the Betrayer, as story is such a vital feature of RPGs. The Spirit Meter mechanic in the Mask of the Betrayer is the perfect example of this - it was innovative, fitted well with the story and provided for very interesting gameplay options that fed back again to an engaging story in a loop. That definitely pushed the boundary of RPG gameplay and in a very positive way.

 

If you exclude the Mask of the Betrayer, however, and concentrate solely on previous titles, than you may have a point, though I never felt particularly bothered by that. That said, I liked the innovation of the MotB so much, that I am somewhat apprehensive that Obsidian might back off further such experiments due to the negative reaction of some posters on the forums to the Spirit Meter mechanic.

[Magister Lajciak]

On a related note: As I have said, storytelling and dialogue has been Obsidian's huge strength. Storm of Zehir seems to be the first Obsidian game that does not emphasize storytelling and dialogue and places greater stress on exploration - at least that is the impression I get from what we have seen about it so far (that is not to say there will be no story or dialogue, lest somebody interprets my comments that way). It will be interesting to see how that shapes up for Obsidian.

[WILL THE ALMIGHTY]

As a company, I believe our biggest weaknesses have been the following:

 

* Games that are not fundamentally fun. That is, their core mechanics are not quickly enjoyable or do not have lasting value at a variety of difficulty levels.

* Characters that are not visually appealing. This doesn't mean characters that are attractive, but certainly that's part of it.

* Poor overall production values, polish, and stability. Not much to say here.

 

I think we are realistically raising the bar on all of these issues on our next two titles, though obviously the proof is in the eating of the proverbial pudding.

 

I so want to believe devs when they say this. I WANT to think devs always know what they're doing. But all we have, unfortunatly, is your word for it.

 

I'm glad to hear you recognise those flaws, though. It shows you aren't blind.

 

It would be a real shame if AP were to be buggy.

[Humodour]

That's funny coming you. A guy who attacks me 9and others) whenever they say soemthing positive about NWN, and BIO.

 

Yes, this coming from me. A guy who loved KOTOR1, BG1, Shadows of Undrentide & Hordes of the Underdark, but disliked NWN1 OC and BG2.

 

I freely admit Bioware is not my favourite company. They've made some good games and some bad games. They aren't perfect and I don't think they're on the right track. I don't call them a bad company, though, and I'm perfectly willing to play one of their games if I hear it is Old Bioware style (Dragon Age).

 

So I don't know where you got it that I attack people whenever they say something positive about NWN or Bioware. Seems like you're simply trying to attack my nature because I made a valid point.

 

random n00b: chillaxe.

[random n00b]

random n00b: chillaxe.

Yeah, OK. We don't want to chase new users away, etc.

 

Time for my medication, it seems. And a timeout.

[Nightshape]

I have never felt that while playing an obsidian title to date that some sort of boundary in regards to RPG gameplay is being pressed. Standard gameplay with above average story telling.

 

I disagree. It is precisely through intertwining the story with the gameplay that Obsidian has pushed the boundary of RPGs in the Mask of the Betrayer, as story is such a vital feature of RPGs. The Spirit Meter mechanic in the Mask of the Betrayer is the perfect example of this - it was innovative, fitted well with the story and provided for very interesting gameplay options that fed back again to an engaging story in a loop. That definitely pushed the boundary of RPG gameplay and in a very positive way.

 

If you exclude the Mask of the Betrayer, however, and concentrate solely on previous titles, than you may have a point, though I never felt particularly bothered by that. That said, I liked the innovation of the MotB so much, that I am somewhat apprehensive that Obsidian might back off further such experiments due to the negative reaction of some posters on the forums to the Spirit Meter mechanic.

 

While the whole spirit thing in MoB was cool and all... It didn't feel like something dramatically new, kinda reminded me of the day when food existed in CRPG's. It was an extreme modification of an old mechanic coupled with the story.

 

I came away feeling it was good, as I generally do with obsidians titles, but that doesn't mean that everything they've done hasn't been a modification of previously defined gameplay.

[Humodour]

random n00b: chillaxe.

Yeah, OK. We don't want to chase new users away, etc.

 

Time for my medication, it seems. And a timeout.

 

You should add a transparency layer to your signature gif and anti-alias it. It would be time consuming but cool.

[RPGmasterBoo]

That's funny coming you. A guy who attacks me 9and others) whenever they say soemthing positive about NWN, and BIO.

 

And, this guy is no diffeent. Look at how he reacted when I gave my opinion on BG2's role-playing in comparison to BIO's newer games. He doesn't want a debate. He wants people to agree with him, and if they don't; he laughs and taunts them. *shrug* No worries.

 

 

 

"Its alright... I was somewhat similar to him when I was around 16,17."

 

Ahh.. The 'ol 'Because you disagree with me, you must be a young kid' trick. I forgive you.

 

 

"It might be good to take a look why I think NWN (1) is a faliure because Oblivion continued this series."

 

Ahh.. See, this is the problem. NWN is anything but a failure. It's BIO's most successful, and all your 'reasons' are opinions not facts even though you list them like they are facts.

 

 

"The lack of a party eradicated all the tactical options inherent to DnD gampelay (because DnD is not made for solo characters). This led to combat being rendered senseless, and borderline stupid since all you had to do was click on the enemy and wait for him to drop."

 

Great thing about D&D is it's design for variant p0lay. Afterall, there are 'official' D&D adventures specifically designed for SOLO play.

 

And, your description of NWN's combat is exactly how BG's combat worked except NWN gives you a heck of a lot more options. Afterall, ALL fighters can do in BG is click on enemies, and wait 'til they die.

 

How are you debating, by repeating that those games are better RPG's, no reasons, no clarification - nothing? At least I tried to list what I believe to be glaring faults of those games. You just repeat one sentence over and over, stating what you believe is fact and its up to me or anybody else to accept it.

Besides, wheter you agree with me or not is completely unimportant, this is a forum not a church.

 

Not because you disagree, but because you communicate on the level of a teenager.

 

Most sucessful at what? In bringing them cash? That's the only thing that they could have meant when they said it, but if money is what counts then The Sims is the best game ever made.

 

There might be such adventures, but in cRPGs many things that are part of pen and paper rp don't count. So in a computer game unlike real rp you are by default left with a limited set of things you can do. NWN simply doesnt use even the resources it has available to give the game at least a little depth.

 

Except in BG you get 6 characters with their own class skills and abilities which gives you a lot of options in combat. in What are you options in NWN? BGII and especially Temple of Elemental Evil showed how you could use a lot of DnD's potential - combat wise. NWN limits this even further up to the point where even Diablo II might be more tactical.

[RPGmasterBoo]

I have never felt that while playing an obsidian title to date that some sort of boundary in regards to RPG gameplay is being pressed. Standard gameplay with above average story telling.

 

I disagree. It is precisely through intertwining the story with the gameplay that Obsidian has pushed the boundary of RPGs in the Mask of the Betrayer, as story is such a vital feature of RPGs. The Spirit Meter mechanic in the Mask of the Betrayer is the perfect example of this - it was innovative, fitted well with the story and provided for very interesting gameplay options that fed back again to an engaging story in a loop. That definitely pushed the boundary of RPG gameplay and in a very positive way.

 

If you exclude the Mask of the Betrayer, however, and concentrate solely on previous titles, than you may have a point, though I never felt particularly bothered by that. That said, I liked the innovation of the MotB so much, that I am somewhat apprehensive that Obsidian might back off further such experiments due to the negative reaction of some posters on the forums to the Spirit Meter mechanic.

 

Yep though it seems the best way to enrich the experience is to break rules and introduce new things. Perhaps DnD 3.5 might be getting a little stale cRPG wise.

 

Like in the Witcher, where a new studio sold 800000 copies of a game practically overnight just because they dared to offer something different. That's what I was adressing in the first post, the need to move on from tired and overused concepts. Its easy to forget that Bioware invented the real time party based, isometric dnd gameplay what, nine years ago? A lot of time has passed, and it might need to be thoroughly changed.

 

I'm very eager to see what the Alien RPG will have to offer. A bit less enthusiastic on Alpha Protocol. And as far as Stom of Zehir is concerned, i think it'll be good, though without breaking new ground....

[Dark Wastl]

Not because you disagree, but because you communicate on the level of a teenager.

 

Maybe it's just me, but I don't see how you are faring any better in that regard. Reading this topic, you were the first person who went on "teenager-level", just like you were the first person who showed disrespect for the opinion of someone else.

 

Volourn tends to use an "interesting" style when it comes to discussions, but there wasn't anything wrong with his arguments, nor was he insulting.

 

 

I agree with what's good and bad about Obsidian, but disagree with many things you write about Bioware. They can be somewhat repetitive in certain themes, but then again so are most of the big gaming-franchises. Bioware has zero reason to go for drastic changes, as their games are highly acclaimed and very successful, as long as that keeps up, changing too many things would be foolish.

As for similar stories, well gues what, that happens. You can count the truly innovative story-ideas on one hand by now. Pretty much everything has been done in a similar way by now, all you can do is change the surroundings and style. It's not like people got bored by their storylines or characters. KOTOR is about as popular as it gets, and Revan is one of the key figures of the EU. That game alone spawned a sequel, books and a comic-series, because it's so beloved. Looking around the internet, you will find a majority of people think KOTOR is vastly superior to KOTOR II, I don't agree with that, but it shows that Bioware did deliver something that many people care about, something that hit the right notes when it comes to those who played it.

Edited October 5, 2008 by Dark Wastl