Correcting rumors about Sarah Palin

[Gorgon]

Why the repetitive 'it doesn't work' mantra. It's worked just fine in my experience ever since ww2, in most of western and northern Europe.

Edited September 10, 2008 by Gorgon

[random n00b]

Because, while technically it "works" (as in, it hasn't caused the collapse of the state, yet), it's nowhere near the levels of Sweden, Denmark, Finland... and they are the examples used to showcase the effectiveness of public healthcare. Have you ever heard about the awesome Italian health service? The Spanish one? UK?

 

Right.

[samm]

Germany, austria, switzerland

[Rosbjerg]

Because, while technically it "works" (as in, it hasn't caused the collapse of the state, yet), it's nowhere near the levels of Sweden, Denmark, Finland... and they are the examples used to showcase the effectiveness of public healthcare. Have you ever heard about the awesome Italian health service? The Spanish one? UK?

 

Right.

 

The Canadian and French public healthcare is actually pretty good from what I've heard.

[Xard]

Because, while technically it "works" (as in, it hasn't caused the collapse of the state, yet), it's nowhere near the levels of Sweden, Denmark, Finland... and they are the examples used to showcase the effectiveness of public healthcare. Have you ever heard about the awesome Italian health service? The Spanish one? UK?

 

Right.

 

The Canadian and French public healthcare is actually pretty good from what I've heard.

 

supposedly Canada has the best one

[taks]

supposedly Canada has the best one

ask a few canadians that have the money to pay for their own health care and you'll get a different answer: they come to the US. "supposedly" and "from what I've heard" is code for "as reported in the media."

 

Why the repetitive 'it doesn't work' mantra. It's worked just fine in my experience ever since ww2, in most of western and northern Europe.

because it doesn't, and your "experience" is not only anecdotal, but apparently oblivious to the facts.

 

taks

[taks]

I think Northern Europe is a good example of public healthcare and school systems working very well. We have tried privatizing certain areas, like waste disposal and public cleaning, to great effect.

define "very well." it is a subjective term. ultimately, privatized systems will outperform any government run system simply due to efficiency afforded by competition, i.e., for less cost you can get the same, usually better, performance.

 

So I definitely see the benefits - but to me it's infititely more humane to have free healthcare - so even the mentally ill (who can't keep a job), homeless, poor one parent families (who are struggling as it is without insurance) and everyone else can go to a good doctor in a good hospital and get fixed, no matter what their income is.

ah, there's the morality clause, "humane," thrown in for good effect again. it is never humane to force someone to give up their liberty for another, no matter how well intended. you have taken the authority upon yourself (in general, anyone that agrees with such a notion) to say one person has rights that trump the rights of another.

 

And I'm proud to pay my 41% taxes to help out these people.

good for you.

 

Our biggest problem right now is not quality, but waiting lists - to that effect the few private hospitals in Denmark are taking in patients, while the public health insurance still covers it.

no kidding, waiting lists... i don't have to wait, why should you? my health care ultimately costs less than yours, too, in spite of all the rising costs over here.

 

I'm very much against making the entire sector private, but a few private hospitals can work to increase the overall quality and serve as an alternative to those who would rather pay for better service.

 

So to me, a combination of both private and public, with an emphasis on public, is the best solution imo.

so wait a minute... it works very well in your above comments, and all the other euro-snobs seem to agree, but now you admit private health care offers better service? which is it? it's like you all know it is a poor substitution, but you're afraid to admit it because you don't know anything else. sheesh.

 

taks

[Xard]

supposedly Canada has the best one

ask a few canadians that have the money to pay for their own health care and you'll get a different answer: they come to the US. "supposedly" and "from what I've heard" is code for "as reported in the media."

 

It's not worth reviving the latter debate because it was buried under bazillion other posts, but did you consider for a moment that reason why people come to US for very high-up med care is NOT the reason it is market driven but the fact USA with its vast resources and hundreds of thousands research center is still No.1 place in world as far as research goes? It stems from these purely scientifical and logistical facts why most of this kind of "healthcare" is found from USA. It's not virtue of private sector model.

 

because it doesn't, and your "experience" is not only anecdotal, but apparently oblivious to the facts.

 

Considering how much you use the fact we don't live in USA an don't have the "experience" to understand "how it all really works" or at least "how it should work" (compared against evil socialist greed) this is silly. Gorgon can make such claims just as much from experience as you do when it comes to economics

 

btw, this **** doesn't start to make sense before taks

 

A) defines what he means with socialism

B) explain why invisible hand of market is morally and practically superior system in all areas

Edited September 10, 2008 by Xard

[Gorgon]

Now we get to the point where he proves that the public health services don't work. Otherwise his observations are just irrelevant anecdotes.

Edited September 10, 2008 by Gorgon

[SteveThaiBinh]

This thread looks unhappily like it's headed towards throwing insults and name-calling rather than discussion. Please prove me wrong.

[Killian Kalthorne]

Um... That Edwards guy... Freaky, isn't he?

[samm]

Haha, taks, Eurosnobs... Our knowledge indeed is anecdotal, because we only observed it on our own... Of course you can get more exclusive treatment, also for unneccessary stuff like cosmetic surgery, when paying on your own, why does that surprise you? But you're right, Mr. Moderator, I've lost track of how that connects to Palin. Or Edwards for that matter

 

Well, I heard that whole Palin affair actually helped raise McCain's approval score (or whatever that's called in English). Does it only suggest that any kind publicity has a positive effect because it's raising awareness, or could it mean that the US voters actually think she'll be a good VP? Or is the higher approval not related to her but to something McCain did lately?

Edited September 10, 2008 by samm

[Deadly_Nightshade]

It's the post-convention surge, Obama had the same thing happen.

[Killian Kalthorne]

Polls are meaningless anyway. Only thing that matters is the election night in November.

[Meshugger]

Sandra Palin uses religion as a political tool, which is a strictly no-no for me. It is the cheapest of political hackeries that a politican can do to 'energize' her base. Religion is very personal, as it defines ones core belief on where you as a person stand in the the universe of all, your own truth so to say. And to cling to religion publicly, for lets say an oil pipeline, shows a severe lack of judgement and respect to others.

 

Other politicians have done it in american politics, but Palin takes the price, as far as i can tell. I see no reason to vote for her. My vote (if i could) would go to Mike Gravel.

 

And oh, american health care is good. American healt-insurance however, sucks donkey-d***. It is simply morally wrong, we aren't cars, houses or any kind of commodity, we are human beings and should be treated as such.

[taks]

indeed, health insurance is a major problem in the US, not health care. companies, btw, used to only provide major medical, i.e., insurance against catastrophe. unfortunately, we've grown into an entitlement society in which we feel that everything should be provided for by someone else. insurance is expected to cover everything. nobody wants to pay for the services they've received, they should be "rights." of course, these "rights" ultimately translate into those that have paying for those that don't. tyranny of the masses, something the constitution was attempting to avoid, ensures this. it is easy to vote into law a means by which the many individually have more (or more important) rights than the few.

 

the only reason i favor conservatives/republicans in such debates is that they tend to understand this, at least on the surface. in practice, however, when either party has total control, individual rights are sidelined. i couldn't care less about palin's religious beliefs since they mean squat when it comes to what happens with the nation as a whole. no matter how much the left wants to scream about heading towards a theocracy, or whatever, it just can't happen. a move towards socialism, however, can happen, mostly because people (read: the masses) aren't educated enough about economics to understand why it is such a bad thing.

 

^samm, my comment was not directed towards all europeans, just those that delight in telling us in the US why we are so bad for the world, and how we should run our country. those are the "euro-snobs" so to speak. in the end, they are probably either envious, or jealous of what we have. they are educated and feel a sense of entitlement, too. "why do those greedy Americans have so much" i suppose. oh well.

 

the fact that palin is only going to be a VP is lost in the debate, too. those on the left only use her as a scapegoat, i.e., an excuse to not vote for mccain. they wouldn't anyway. i don't understand why they're mad about her as a choice since they were voting democrat anyway. it's all bluster, nay, nonsense.

 

taks

[Walsingham]

The thought occurs to me that perhaps the reason why we Euroweenies cause such a stink is that the US electorate is so vast and multifarious. Having only a few tiny channels to hear it on, makes it sound like a cacophany.

[taks]

The thought occurs to me that perhaps the reason why we Euroweenies cause such a stink is that the US electorate is so vast and multifarious. Having only a few tiny channels to hear it on, makes it sound like a cacophany.

actually, most of you euroweenies don't really create a stink. many are simply searching for information since, as you note, there are only a few tiny channels through which you can get information.

 

it is the privileged few that think they know what's best for us. they know because they are superior. they should be in control of the reigns. they are entitled to it, of course.

 

taks

[Shryke]

i heard she was a member of the jewish telepathic underground

 

hehe i love crazy conspiracy people. methinks the old guy that told me this was a teensy bit high

[samm]

definitely.

[Shryke]

i was half expecting him to start ranting about the Illuminati for a second

 

he did mention them briefly, but only that they're a cover up for the JTU

[taks]

a good conspiracy is always a fun read.

 

taks

[Killian Kalthorne]

the fact that palin is only going to be a VP is lost in the debate, too. those on the left only use her as a scapegoat, i.e., an excuse to not vote for mccain.

 

That argument would have merit if John McCain wasn't over 70 years of age and already had four bouts with cancer. She would be one heart beat away from being president and that is a concern. At least if Obama buys it we got someone on back up who could do the job.

Edited September 10, 2008 by Killian Kalthorne

[Nick_i_am]

From what I know, the demographics in the Nordic countries are different from those of the US, UK, and southern and eastern Europe. Immigration for instance is a non-issue there. Perhaps the relation between that and the success of their model isn't simply casual.

 

I don't think their level of success could be duplicated anywhere else, so they are probably something of an oddity. Which is why they are the one and only example brought up when defending the effectiveness of socialism...

 

No argument, my only point is that 'it can work only under certain conditions' is very different to 'it doesn't work at all'.

 

just those that delight in telling us [...] how we should run our country.

 

wait a sec....

Edited September 11, 2008 by Nick_i_am

[theslug]

 

I love you Matt Damon. I love you.