The quality of combat in Bloodlines and other games

[Wrath of Dagon]

I know it's chockful, but it's mostly just filler which has no reason to be there except waste time. The "western" ass was well done, but was too over the top to fit the game. I also really liked the liver transplant quest, but aside from those, can't really think of anything else that was other than mediocre. In contrast, almost everything in Tien's Landing was interesting. Edit: Both times I played the game, it was like two different teams made it.

Edited September 1, 2008 by Wrath of Dagon

[Volourn]

"ahh, you're just trolling

 

Volo is right on rushing thing"

 

Actually, you are trolling. I stated my opinion. Not my fault you cna't accept opinions other than your own. The KOTORs areoverrated - espicially their writing. And, that's doubly so for KOTOR2 on these forums.

[Xard]

whole game is over the top. In a bad way.

 

 

btw, that's just YOUR opinion. Only interesting mission from Tien's Landing I remember were ghost children (game's best) and getting husband for crime boss

 

Anyway, not liking missions =/= they're rushed

[Wrath of Dagon]

whole game is over the top. In a bad way.

 

btw, that's just YOUR opinion. Only interesting mission from Tien's Landing I remember were ghost children (game's best) and getting husband for crime boss

 

Anyway, not liking missions =/= they're rushed

It's a little too jokey, but I wouldn't say over the top. What about the cursed forest quest with the cannibals, and the pirate layer, and the drowned city aside from the ghost children? And I don't just mean I didn't like them, it was just pretty clear to me they weren't even trying. Most of those were just some very formulaic dialog and then some fighting, nothing interesting or compelling.

[mkreku]

Bioware games not rushed? Did you guys play the last part of Jade Empire? It was so bad it made ME rush through the game! The first parts of Jade Empire had a lot of content (dialogues, quests, different characters), but after a certain point (don't remember exactly where) all you did was kill stuff to be able to move on to the next area. Then you met the end boss and killed him in under 30 seconds with your Jade Golem. A real classic.

[Llyranor]

I know it's chockful, but it's mostly just filler which has no reason to be there except waste time.

BG1/2/KOTOR/ME are also full of time-wasters, boohoo.

 

In JE's defense, it had nice music, and the ghost orphans quest was nice (for the music).

[Moatilliatta]

Best part of JE was the art direction. Best Bioware art direction by far.

[Kelverin]

And, that's doubly so for KOTOR2 on these forums.

If you say so, again we will just have to disagree. Going through my first play through of KotOR2, almost finished with Chapter 3 - Nar Shaddaa, some of the best writing in any game I have ever played.

 

Combat - Goto

[Nightshape]

"You don't have to, but you might when comparing a game on a brand new engine to one that has had 7? games."

 

so, is easier to work with an engine you designed or to try an work with some other clown's engine? some o' the iwd guys is still 'round. maybe you can pose question to them. regardless, am doubting that the iwd guys felt much compassion for tim and co.

 

HA! Good Fun!

 

You can argue the toss from many perspectives, companies often licence engines because engine maintainance is seperate task to engine use. You also have to bare in mind the level of documentation coupled with an engine.

 

Developing a game engine and game along side each other genuinely can lead to problems, the engine technology needs to be ahead of the rest of the team.

 

When an engine is licenced it's usually comes with alot of documentation, it's easier to use someone else's technology, atleast initially it is, over a time period it actually makes more sense to develop in house technology.

 

ToEE is alot more ambitious than IWD. IWD isn't all that far from a professionally produce mod for baldurs gate, that's not to balk at the results, and it is more than a mere mod as it did feature engine improvements, but at it's core like alot of games they're existing on a level equivilent to mods, the extremities of which can be debated.

 

 

*chuckle*

 

am understanding your pov, but you might wanna direct this to the obsidian developers rather than make as a reply to Gromnir. having no personal experience in such things we tends to defer to experts in the field... and at least one obsidian expert disagrees with you.

 

HA! Good Fun!

 

 

*shruggs* its a tricky topic.

Edited September 1, 2008 by Nightshape

[WILL THE ALMIGHTY]

Why do people answer Volo again? It's not like he's going to change opinion, what with all the "ME>KotOR" posts.

 

But really, I liked the combat in KotOR, but it could have been more strategic, and maybe mroe challenging.

[Dark_Raven]

One can hate on BIO because they dislike their games (men to them for the hate); but to claim BIO rushes their games is beyond funny.

 

P.s. JE > KOTOR 1+ 2

 

 

 

"I think he is referring just to the first KotOR. Otherwise he would state KotOR2."

 

Actually, if you read my earlier posts, I said both KOTORs. I find thats eries overrated. Fun, decent games; but that's it.

R00fles! Kotors floor JE. Simple as that.

[Volourn]

"Bioware games not rushed? Did you guys play the last part of Jade Empire? It was so bad it made ME rush through the game!"

 

You disliking the ending (and, you are right, it is combat heavy) has nothing to do with it being 'rushed'. End of KOTOR was mostly combat as was ME, NWN OC, SOU, BG1, TOSC, and TOB. BG2 was posisbly the only exception to this.

 

 

"Why do people answer Volo again? It's not like he's going to change opinion, what with all the "ME>KotOR" posts."

 

Eh? It's no different than all the KOTOR > JE posts. I just get to the point. *shrug*

 

 

"I have yet to play JE, but I might give it a try if the writing is as good as you say, anyone else share volos opinion on this?"

 

Obsidian baords here. Yiua ren't gonna find anyone to amdit that JE's writing is as good as KOTOR let alone KOTOR2. They'd be wrong in that opinion, unfortunately, but it's their opinion.

[Xard]

Volo, explain how JE's mostly formulaic, cliched and uninspired writing can match Kotor 2 or hell, even Kotor 1?

 

I'm not saying JE was badly written, it wasn't. Occasionally it was very good (demon/girl, ghost children) and most of the time decent.

 

That's what Bio does, decent, occasionally good writing. But it wasn't anything brilliant like K2 that is full with quote material. For example there's nothing on quality and nuances of Atris confrontation in early game, or Handmaiden, or Mira and Zhaalbar etc.

 

Not to mention Kreia.

 

Most of the party members in JE are uninspired cliche sacks (failed jokes like Henpecker Hen, dullness to max like Dawn Star, the Stereotypical Stubid Brute whose name I already forgot, stereotypical tough grumby monk ((what a difference between him and Dak'kon who are the very same archetype!) and goofy madman/scientist) and plot and world resemble Disney take on China and its culture.

 

Best part of JE was the art direction. Best Bioware art direction by far.

 

Hmm, maybe. It still wasn't good as far as eastern art directions go, though this is propably bit unfair as Bio guys are western.

[Moatilliatta]

JE isn't bad as such it is just incredibly uninteresting as the few good characters (e.g. girl with demon) seemed short and ended quite abruptly and wasn't explained fully. Similarly the writing seems to want you to care for things/beings that it hasn't established a valid reasoning for you to care for.

 

If anything was bad in JE then it was mostly the execution as many of the ideas are grand.

I think I can mention at most one idea that just stinks and that idea is unfortunately much worse than what Bio usually sends out.

 

@Xard

I did say best Bioware art direction. Though which directions is it that you think is much superiour?

[Zoma]

Hmm, maybe. It still wasn't good as far as eastern art directions go, though this is propably bit unfair as Bio guys are western.

 

My impression with J.E's artistic design was that it seems to be heavily influenced by Disney's Mulan but with the latter still being portrayed accurately to Eastern design.

 

The difference? Disney relied on years of research on Chinese culture before designing Mulan while J.E's artistic design is simply from a guy who had never been to China, nor gone through in depth study of its history. As a result, the design of J.E is simply an interpretation of China, but its not even Chinese.

[Moatilliatta]

I doubt that Bioware tried to accurately portray China. JE is extremely fantasised wuxia.

[Wrath of Dagon]

Exactly, it's Jade Empire, a mythical version of China, it did not claim to be actual China like Mulan. Art design was good, and technically it had the best graphics until ME, but I still prefer KOTOR art design because of the subject matter. The writing in some of the quests was quite good, although I agree the characters were weak, and since they didn't do much in combat there wasn't much reason to have them at all, except if you got Death's Hand in your party. He was cool, and actually useful in combat. Also Zaalbar was in K1, K2 had the psycho Hanhaar, ech. Overall K2 characters were much less interesting than K1, Kreia excepted.

Edited September 2, 2008 by Wrath of Dagon

[Xard]

of course, but point here is that it WAS China with magixes on it. And that's why eastern people - esp chinese - were frustrated with the game's shallowness.

 

 

THAT is JE's main problem in everything. In characters, in themes and their handlings, in game mechanics...

 

Anyway, problem with not enough background research was that JE's setting turned out to be some goofy, unbeliavable and shallow dream version of China.

 

Hell, even as fantastic wuxia it fails as Zoma might tell you

[RangerSG]

Hmm, maybe. It still wasn't good as far as eastern art directions go, though this is propably bit unfair as Bio guys are western.

 

My impression with J.E's artistic design was that it seems to be heavily influenced by Disney's Mulan but with the latter still being portrayed accurately to Eastern design.

 

The difference? Disney relied on years of research on Chinese culture before designing Mulan while J.E's artistic design is simply from a guy who had never been to China, nor gone through in depth study of its history. As a result, the design of J.E is simply an interpretation of China, but its not even Chinese.

 

As noted, you are operating under a misconception. JE was intended to be a mix of eastern and western styles. It was not intended to portray China or Japan, it was intended as a unique setting mainly eastern but not entirely. Any problems with JE, IMHO, have nothing to do with the setting, or at least it's lore and background.

[Xard]

I did say best Bioware art direction. Though which directions is it that you think is much superiour?

 

I don't know if it is engine or art direction AND engine but BG2 visuals > Jade Empire

 

 

 

 

Also Zaalbar was in K1, K2 had the psycho Hanhaar, ech. Overall K2 characters were much less interesting than K1, Kreia excepted.

 

Are you trying to say second rate Chewbacca with zero personality is better and more interesting character than twisted, original take on wookiees that illuminates dark shades of those creatures way Star Wars hasn't done elsewhere. (Which is funny when SW movies recognize beast, dangerous nature of wookiees.) Or Handmaiden with her echani philosophy and elektra complexial tendencies (lulz) when it comes to Exile and mysterious blind sith are weaker characters than Bioware Stereotype No1 Bastilla and furry? Carth the crybaby is better character than ever so flimsy Atton or tormented Bao-Dur? Mission Vao is better than G0-T0, droid run amok with conflicting commands? HK-47 in k1 over HK-47 in k2 not to mention T3-M4 which actually is character in K2.

 

Not to mention Nihilus, Sion and Atris as adversaries > Malak

 

Kreia of course beats everyone

[SteveThaiBinh]

I don't know if it is engine or art direction AND engine but BG2 visuals > Jade Empire

It depends on your own tastes, of course, but I think for a lot of people BG2 visuals beat most later games. They represent the apex of that particular generation of graphics, with gorgeous 2D locations still leaving a lot for the imagination to do. However, if Bioware had decided to stick with that generation and not move on to 3D, they would have gone bust by now. Got to move with the times, eh?

[Moatilliatta]

The BG2 environs were quite spectacular use of 2d but I wouldn't call the art direction anything but average. If I look at them now they appear quite bland.

[Xard]

yeah, that's why I said I'm not sure if it is art direction or natural aptitudeness of IE engine that makes visuals so stunning in BG2

[Wrath of Dagon]

Are you trying to say second rate Chewbacca with zero personality is better and more interesting character than twisted, original take on wookiees that illuminates dark shades of those creatures way Star Wars hasn't done elsewhere. (Which is funny when SW movies recognize beast, dangerous nature of wookiees.)

No, I didn't like Zaalbar, but I actively despised Hanhaar, he's just a pure psycho, nothing interesting about him at all.

Or Handmaiden with her echani philosophy and elektra complexial tendencies (lulz) when it comes to Exile and mysterious blind sith are weaker characters than Bioware Stereotype No1 Bastilla and furry?

Elekra complexial? What's that? I liked the Handmaiden, but Bastila was a more interesting character and had better dialog. Visas was just plain boring.

Carth the crybaby is better character than ever so flimsy Atton or tormented Bao-Dur?

Carth was a well written crybaby, Bao-Dur was dull, I did like Atton but again Carth wins on dialog.

Mission Vao is better than G0-T0, droid run amok with conflicting commands?

Sure, if you actually get to unlock that important info, which I never did. Mission was good though.

HK-47 in k1 over HK-47 in k2 not to mention T3-M4 which actually is character in K2

Well, K1 created HK-47. Also you forgot Jolee and Canderous.

 

Not to mention Nihilus, Sion and Atris as adversaries > Malak

 

Kreia of course beats everyone

I was talking more about party members, although if you want to talk about NPC's overall I believe K1 still wins.

[Xard]

Please, K1 dialogues tend to be silly, black and white and just campy. Preferring characters of k1 over k2 (who aren't such likeable bunch) I can understand, but claim Bastilla had better dialogue than Handmaiden is just wrong on so many levels

 

I guess you didn't get Hanharr's character

 

 

Tell me one character from K1 that is on level with Atris