The quality of combat in Bloodlines and other games

[newc0253]

hey, wasn't this thread supposed to be about combat in CRPGs? the last few pages seem to be a bitchfest between folk who hated Mass Effect and/or KOTOR for reasons i'm too bored to consider.

[Deadly_Nightshade]

You had to find out there was a crashed pod, obtain a Geth uniform or papers, go to the lower level, deal with the refugees, and finally explore the area while fighting off the Rathghouls and dealing with Sith patrols.

 

So there were some standard fetch-the-"X, Y, and Zed" quests involved, amazing. Also, you did not have to "deal with the refugees" if you did not want to, there that much to "explore," and I can only remember ONE "Sith patrols" that was not DEAD.

[Wrath of Dagon]

judging by amount of people really liking the game - even those who hate everything Bio spew out after BG2 or alternatively HotU - compared with those who liked kotor but didn't like ME like you...well, numbers are crushing

Yes, they are crushing, so many people without any taste.

[Wrath of Dagon]

You had to find out there was a crashed pod, obtain a Geth uniform or papers, go to the lower level, deal with the refugees, and finally explore the area while fighting off the Rathghouls and dealing with Sith patrols.

 

So there were some standard fetch-the-"X, Y, and Zed" quests involved, amazing. Also, you did not have to "deal with the refugees" if you did not want to, there that much to "explore," and I can only remember ONE "Sith patrols" that was not DEAD.

OK, what are the non-standard quests? I didn't say it was amazing, I said it was interesting. What's your point anyway?

[Deadly_Nightshade]

Yes, they are crushing, so many people without any my taste.

 

Corrected.

[Wrath of Dagon]

hey, wasn't this thread supposed to be about combat in CRPGs? the last few pages seem to be a bitchfest between folk who hated Mass Effect and/or KOTOR for reasons i'm too bored to consider.

Sorry, I've noticed that too. As soon as people quit attacking me, I'll get off the subject.

[Deadly_Nightshade]

OK, what are the non-standard quests?

 

 

Jeannette and Therese's questline in Bloodlines is a good example of a "non-standard quest"...

 

 

What's your point anyway?

 

I pointed out where you were incorrect.

[Wrath of Dagon]

May be Bloodlines was better, I don't know, haven't played it. The best quest I've played was Peragus in K2, because it was non-standard. But those are pretty rare.

[Deadly_Nightshade]

As soon as people quit attacking me, I'll get off the subject.

 

People are not "attacking" you, they are disagreeing with your positions - there is a difference.

[Deadly_Nightshade]

The best quest I've played was Peragus in K2, because it was non-standard.

 

Ok... And why exactly was it "non-standard"? Also, what other RPGs are you basing your assertions on - what other games have you played?

[Wrath of Dagon]

Well, you're the one who said standard X-Y-Z fetch quest, so I assume you know what standard means. Anyway, got to go, I'll continue later.

[Moatilliatta]

@WoD

If you're gonna include all that in finding the crashpod (I didn't because my memory of Kotor is several years old by now) then try to put it up against the "Find Saren" part of the main quest in ME and take a look at how many different things you do there and how many of those things that you don't even find in your Bastilla quest like Wrex being angry at Shepard for saying they should destroy the anti-virus to the genophage.

 

My main point isn't that I'm right and you're wrong (though I sometimes come off that way) but instead that you should be carefull with throwing out words like masterpiece as it is an incredibly loaded word that means a lot. To be honest it's hard to even argue that video games has anything worthy of being valled a masterpiece as most of them has incredilby visible flaws and doesn't compare in any way to what an actual masterpiece is.

 

Anyway, since Xard has already started waxing on the whole you'll learn when you get older/more experienced debate I can tell you that KOTOR was also an incredibly important game for me because before that I had only played Baldurs Gate 1/2 and as such had very little to compare to. Since then I've played every WRPG since the second-coming that BG started and can easily say that my original faith in KOTOR was misguided.

 

Also, why haven't you played the classics like Baldurs Gate 1 and 2 yet? I think you might be among those who will like them.

 

[Ontopic]

Bloodlines combat was good because it made more sense in context and had more of a feel of positional combat than the recent games where you're attacked by a blob of Githyanki/Goblins/other generic badguys. NWN2 had a bit of this in the style of IWD2 with the whole barrels as fortification idea, but it wasn't enough for me to get through.

[Xard]

judging by amount of people really liking the game - even those who hate everything Bio spew out after BG2 or alternatively HotU - compared with those who liked kotor but didn't like ME like you...well, numbers are crushing

Yes, they are crushing, so many people without any taste.

 

I'd understand this if you'd raise MotB, PS:T, Fallout or something on the pedestal instead of ME, but when one raises Kotor over Mass Effect it's just silly. They're very much same thing

 

hey, wasn't this thread supposed to be about combat in CRPGs? the last few pages seem to be a bitchfest between folk who hated Mass Effect and/or KOTOR for reasons i'm too bored to consider.

Sorry, I've noticed that too. As soon as people quit attacking me, I'll get off the subject.

 

It's not attacking, it's questioning

[Wrath of Dagon]

I'd understand this if you'd raise MotB, PS:T, Fallout or something on the pedestal instead of ME, but when one raises Kotor over Mass Effect it's just silly. They're very much same thing

They're not by a long shot, at least play ME before you make that claim. As far as your other games, I can't raise them on a pedestal because I haven't played them, and MotB I didn't get far enough to make a judgment. Anyway, that's all I want to say on this, since it's way off topic.

[Xard]

practically all people I know who've played ME has said "It's kinda like Kotor 2.0 without lightsabers"

[poolofpoo]

the combat system in NWN involved clicking once on the first enemy that appeared on the screen and then sit back and watch how your character slowly killed everything in sight. On occasion you had to knock back a healing potion, that's about it. It doesn't get worse than that.

[Musopticon?]

practically all people I know who've played ME has said "It's kinda like Kotor 2.0 without lightsabers"

In the fundamentals, it's a bit like taking one KotOR, removing melee combat, seasoning it with Pohl and Reynolds and adding lesbian sex.

 

That sounds really fcking awesome until you realize how silly a game K1 was.

 

Edit: Dear god, poolofpoo is back.

Edited August 29, 2008 by Musopticon?

[Xard]

the combat system in NWN involved clicking once on the first enemy that appeared on the screen and then sit back and watch how your character slowly killed everything in sight. On occasion you had to knock back a healing potion, that's about it. It doesn't get worse than that.

 

HotU had some great encounters such as Lich Dragon in Act II.

 

practically all people I know who've played ME has said "It's kinda like Kotor 2.0 without lightsabers"

In the fundamentals, it's a bit like taking one KotOR, removing melee combat, seasoning it with Pohl and Reynolds and adding lesbian sex.

 

That sounds really fcking awesome until you realize how silly a game K1 was.

 

 

 

 

edit: Last time I played HotU was about two years ago though and I was a lot worse D&D player back then. But I remember combat being rather good in that expansion pack, easily best in NWN franchise with some tough fights.

 

Who knows, maybe HotU would be breeze now

Edited August 29, 2008 by Xard

[RangerSG]

the combat system in NWN involved clicking once on the first enemy that appeared on the screen and then sit back and watch how your character slowly killed everything in sight. On occasion you had to knock back a healing potion, that's about it. It doesn't get worse than that.

 

That's true perhaps 'if' you play a fighter only and 'if' you play only the OCs. Try to limit yourself to that in non-OC mods or on a PW or playing anything OTHER than a tank and you'll die; quickly and gruesomely. It's also only true because NWN OCs throw immunity items around like candy.

 

And some of the fights in Hordes were quite dramatic and even strategic. The dracolich for one, the "dead magic" spider lair, and if you fought Meph, that was a true epic challenge. The mod community typically has fights considerably more difficult than the OCs. And I don't see anything in NWN2's OC combat that is more difficult other than a few optional encounters in MotB...really only one, if you do it early (the ancient vampires). And mages are not more difficult to play in NWN2, they're just less fun, since direct damage spells do a better job in core rules of killing your own party than the enemy. Thus I have to not use any of those spells and basically play a party buffer and/or melee mage, which I can do fine, but despise.

Edited August 29, 2008 by RangerSG

[Killian Kalthorne]

the combat system in NWN involved clicking once on the first enemy that appeared on the screen and then sit back and watch how your character slowly killed everything in sight. On occasion you had to knock back a healing potion, that's about it. It doesn't get worse than that.

You can say the same thing about the Infinity Engine games, as well as the Dungeon Siege games. Dungeon Siege practically played itself.

[Wrath of Dagon]

I'm coming to the conclusion that D&D combat is very boring, and should be played on easy to get through it quickly. Perhaps there's an interesting way to implement it, but I haven't seen it. I'll take whosever's word that ToEE was good, but why isn't anyone else doing it if it was possible?

[Deadly_Nightshade]

I'm coming to the conclusion that D&D combat is very boring, and should be played on easy to get through it quickly.

 

Ok... But, playing on EASY is only likely to make it more boring.

[Wrath of Dagon]

Not really, you're just repeating the same thing over and over anyway. On easy (or normal really) you're just repeating it less, getting through the encounters quicker, and feel more powerful.

 

Edit: Plus you can put your party on AI control, and don't have to micromanage.

Edited August 30, 2008 by Wrath of Dagon

[Llyranor]

I would have enjoyed NWN2's combat a whole bunch more if it were turn-based and designed around it.

[RangerSG]

I would have enjoyed NWN2's combat a whole bunch more if it were turn-based and designed around it.

 

Meh, I don't get the whole turn-based, real time debate. Especially if you can pause at will. That's a total red herring issue, IMHO. Even in strategy games. I used to think turn-based strategy was the only kind that made sense, then I played Europa Universalis. The issue is pacing and timing of encounters and combat, not whether or not the game stops for you or not.