New Dragon Age discussion thread

[Monte Carlo]

Hi, I thought I'd start a new one. The last one focussed on the announcement / teaser trailer and a fair bit more has come out since then. There is now an excellent gameplay trailer out there, as well as some decent interviews by Dave Gaider (etc).

 

My thoughts, with the negative ones first -

 

* I still think the aesthetic is too reminiscent of LotR, especially the Celtic / early Medieval hybrid in arms and armour (except for the comedy plate armour, with the cereal box pauldrons. Minor point? Perhaps, I concede that the look of the LotR movies was so damn good it colours forever the way you look at most mainstream fantasy imagery. Still, there's no excuse for the Uruk Hai, er Blight-horde.

 

* We've been offered this very different, gritty 'dark' game world. I've yet to actually see it. Mages are frowned upon. Er, OK. What else? Again, I'm prepared to give Bio bucketfuls of benefit of the doubt but I've still not seen enough to convince me otherwise. I hope they've not mixed up "dark and gritty" with "taking ourselves too seriously."

 

* Freedom. The developers are on a charm offensive to push non-linearity, but Dave G as a designer is very interested in the critical path. Fair play, he's up front about that. DA still contains, as far as I can figure out (A) a critical path you'll be channelled down, complete with trademark Bio ponderous cutscenes, (B) A fixed opening role, i.e. a Grey Warden (Jedi folks, that's what it looks like to me, no doubt there will be a Sith, er fallen Grey Warden path) and

Edited August 22, 2008 by Monte Carlo

[Rosbjerg]

I've been meaning to check up on this game, especially because of this

Dave G said that the game is the biggest thing Bio have attempted since BG2.

 

But I saw some of the first screen shots and the done-to-death fantasy armours really made me bored.. Which is a bad excuse, 'cause they aren't really that important.

[Xard]

It was one of the things that kept me going through Planescape, for example. I don't need romances, I just don't get it. But the folks on the Bio boards love them. It's really scary.

 

Truer words about Bio boards have rarely been spoken. Just see the [heated debate] that started (and continues) after learning about lack of "romances" in SoZ

 

[Edited by SteveThaiBinh to remove a rather silly exercise in trolling and insulting another community member]

 

-------------------------------------

 

My feelings on DA are mixed. All the stuff I've heard before the trailer was great, but apart from gameplay (which looks great) nothing else managed to invoke any positive feelings in me. No dark & gritty to be seen anywhere, once-again-some-goddamn-Blight-faggotry and frickin Uruk-Hais.

 

MEH

 

Still, I give Bio the benefit of doubt

Edited August 22, 2008 by SteveThaiBinh

[SteveThaiBinh]

Romances are great! Sure, make them optional, but put them in for those of us who appreciate them.

 

Have they said what kind of modable it will be? As much as I've enjoyed all the user-created mods for NWN, I think I prefer the BG approach of modders improving and expanding the original campaign, adding NPCs, romances and subquests to that rather than creating new worlds from scratch.

[Xard]

* Dave G said that the game is the biggest thing Bio have attempted since BG2.

 

I hadn't heard about this earlier, great

[Moatilliatta]

Is there anything to discuss except for opinions on Bio games? The only recently released video as far as I remember is this one and that's just forgettable gameplay.

 

* We've been offered this very different, gritty 'dark' game world. I've yet to actually see it. Mages are frowned upon. Er, OK. What else? Again, I'm prepared to give Bio bucketfuls of benefit of the doubt but I've still not seen enough to convince me otherwise. I hope they've not mixed up "dark and gritty" with "taking ourselves too seriously."

Try and read the Bio board threads on religion in TheDAS, I believe that has part in creating the grittyness.

 

@The freedom thing:

Where has this been mentioned? I do remember DG mentioning that there a no sidequests at all. Which is good since the critical path needs to be more than 6 hours long.

[Kelverin]

Is there anything to discuss except for opinions on Bio games? The only recently released video as far as I remember is this one and that's just forgettable gameplay.

There's more "forgettable gameplay" released on Gametrailers yesterday (too lazy to provide a link)

[Kelverin]

oops Edited August 22, 2008 by Kelverin

[Monte Carlo]

@The freedom thing:

Where has this been mentioned? I do remember DG mentioning that there a no sidequests at all. Which is good since the critical path needs to be more than 6 hours long.

 

Dave G did a long interview (45 mins long) with Gamers With Jobs (linked on the main DA site). He specifically mentioned that there were side quests and extraneous stuff outside of the critical path. On another thread on the Bio boards about combat encounters, the devs strongly hinted that there were a number of optional fights with other parties, as a nod to the BG series equivalents which many of us loved.

 

He also mentioned the amount of work they've done on the campaign setting, to the extent that there's a guy who's job is to do nothing but keep up to speed with the in-house wiki tracking DA lore. This is cool, and explains my extremely forgiving tone about what we've seen so far. Of course, I am mercurial when it comes to Bio and will switch on the +5 flamethrower as and when necessary

 

Cheers

MC

[mrmud]

The prospect of a new rpg by a solid developer that is exlusively designed for PC and that allows you to zoom out and control things IE style has me foaming at the mouth.

[Volourn]

"Dave G said that the game is the biggest thing Bio have attempted since BG2."

 

I'd like to know how considering what NWN was. I don't see DA doing any bigger than that oustide of, possibly, the origins...

 

 

 

 

"I do remember DG mentioning that there a no sidequests at all."

 

L0L Did you read that misquote in someone's sig on the BIO baords? You got hoodwinked. Of course DA has side quests. Gaider has even said so, repeatedly. But, DA is a BIo game so don't expect the side quests to be the most important part of the game.

 

Anyways, DA looks to be awesome. hwoever, to throw in something negative - their regenerating mana an dhelath system looks to absolutely suck and will hurt the game's challenge level. BOOOOOOO!!!!

[Gromnir]

Gromnir's first car were a 78 Cherokee. had big plans for that vehicle. sadly, 'tween paying for gas and insurance and maintenance,, not to mention fact that we had far less free time than we had hoped, few o' our big plans for improvements ever came to fruition.

 

developers, and not only bio developers, is typically 'bout as realistic 'bout their games as Gromnir were 'bout that 78 Cherokee. nwn were gonna be offering unique gameplay for every class and race. nwn toolset were gonna be so easy to use that even your "grandmother" would be able to makes playable modules. were biowarians big fat liars, or simply overly optimistic? over optimistic is our guess. sure, no doubt the developers wanted to make toolset super powerful and super easy, but actually accomplishing were a bit more than they could manage. manage to makes nwn oc a unique gameplay experience depending on class/race choice is sounding nice, and virtually every developer makes such similar claims, but reality never seems to meet expectations. unrealistic optimism? yeah. is not lies, simply lack o' realism... and truth to tell, Gromnir would rather have developers be a little too optimistic as 'posed to being convinced that anything new or difficult is impossible.

 

'course the recent dialogue wheel crap makes us wonder a bit. shenanigans whereby developers somehow manage to sell a device that allows 'em to get multiple uses out o' a single dialogue response (useful in a game with full vo) is somehow sold to game purchasers as a role-play innovation? gotta applaud bio for having the stones to try such an obvious con... and fact that they pulled off and managed to trick many reviewers and fans is even more extraordinary.

 

the choose your origins stuff: am predicting that this turns out to be little more than the dialogue wheel o' da. is gonna be a feature you sees mentioned in every preview and interview, but am doubting it genuine amounts to anything.

 

romances will continue to be popular, and disappointing at same time. juvenile and rushed. how can you has a tangential and optional romance that goes through entire cycle in matter o' a half-dozen or so optional dialogue encounters? people likes romance. hell, Gromnir likes romance, but romance ain't really suitable fare for a optional side-quest fodder... not if you want to be meaningful. people will continue to get their bio romance fix with da, but don't expect any genuine improvement, no matter how much the biowarians get in touch with their feminine side.

 

as for da darkness... da will be dark, but not too dark.

 

*chuckle*

 

keep in mind that as much as maybe Gromnir wants to see a da world in which lines 'tween good and evil is blurry, and in which the heroes fail, stumble, and sometimes die, many (MANY) da posters and bio fans do not want such a world. when developers first mentioned that they were inspired by new bsg and george r.r. martin when developing da world and story there were as much message board resistance as there were approval. for all o' us that is bored with the simple black v. white fantasy worlds, there is an equal number o' folks that likes it nice and simple and... pleasant.

 

bio, after listening to boardies back 'n forth 'bout what is dark and how much dark da should have, "clarified" by announcing that da would be dark, but not too dark. no doubt we will see orks kicking puppies into traffic at start o' game, but as the hero you will be able to fix all that nasty evilness with 40 hours or less o' gameplay... puppies will be safe by end of game, so don't you fret.

 

sounds like Gromnir is slamming da already? not really. am actually pretty optimistic. looks nice from screenies, and Gromnir is pretty certain that story and gameplay aspects will be enjoyable. da will be another very solid bio release that has extremely broad appeal... which almost necessarily means that it will cheese off the hardcore gamers.

 

*shrug*

 

will wait and see, but much o' the innovative features we has heard 'bout simply won't be all that innovative when actually played. as long as you ain't actually expecting genuine dark, unique gameplay/story for multiple origin choices, and/or a sea change for crpg romances, you won't be disappointed.

 

HA! Good Fun!

[Dark_Raven]

I like romances and they need to implement them better in RPGs. I consider it a part of the role playing fantasy.

[Gromnir]

no matter how deft the writer or how clever the storyteller, a half-dozen optional and tangential dialogue encounters will never result in a genuine and compelling romance arc... 'least not for Gromnir. sure, for folks brought up on dawson's creek 'n such, maybe the lightning pace and shallow emotional level approach is gonna satisfy, but for Gromnir...

 

romance ain't tangential.

 

HA! Good Fun!

[Dark_Raven]

Come now Grommie just because you have an asexual romance in the game doesn't mean that we have to.

 

What they need is female writers to write the romances.

[Gromnir]

Come now Grommie just because you have an asexual romance in the game doesn't mean that we have to.

 

What they need is female writers to write the romances.

 

female writers write romance will merely result in male players being confused and/or bored... and let us see jane austen does a romance arc in a crpg in which she has to keep dialogue responses short (3 lines or less,) and in which her romance must be optional, tangential, and completed in 6-8 encounters.

 

bah.

 

until they does critical path and does right, am gonna stick with 'Ode to a Broadsword' as most suitable kinda crpg romance.

 

HA! Good Fun!

[Kelverin]

Romance in computer games is a good thing and should be encouraged. Hell why not double your customers/$$$$. Just make sure it's done well.

 

 

EDIT: Shouldn't be hard. Have a contest, or "hire" a few English Literature interns. The best candidate wins. The most difficult part would be choosing between all the submissions.

Edited August 23, 2008 by Kelverin

[Gromnir]

Romance in computer games is a good thing and should be encouraged. Hell why not double your customers/$$$$. Just make sure it's done well.

 

 

EDIT: Shouldn't be hard. Have a contest, or "hire" a few English Literature interns. The best candidate wins. The most difficult part would be choosing between all the submissions.

 

sure, 'cause english lit grads know how to write... likes history grads knows how to change history. is only a handful o' noteworthy english bfa and mfa programs we can think of, and the % of gradates from those programs that actually end up publishing anything meaningful is pretty small. an english lit degree is a meaningless footnote on a writer's resume.

 

and bio knows full well that contests is a Huge mistake.

 

bio has hired numerous folks based on submissions o' work based on nwn toolset. is some folks who has shown good level design and programming skills 'nuff that they has been offered jobs. seen any nwn modules include multiple tangential and optional romances? no?

 

 

 

romance must be:

 

optional

 

tangential

 

virtually entirely dialogue (3 lines max per response)

 

no more than 6-8 dialogue encounters.

 

 

...

 

am not sure kel understands just how complex a task it is to write such a romance. to make such a romance that not feels rushed, juvenile, or trite? good luck. bio will continue to include romances, 'cause they is popular. nevertheless, the current implementation makes marked improvements beyond what we has already seen... problematic.

 

HA! Good Fun!

Edited August 23, 2008 by Gromnir

[Volourn]

Problems or not, romances in BIO games must be doing something right or else they likely wouldn't be as popular as they are. I eprosnally like them as they are (usually) heavy on the role-playing and making chocies with consequences which RPGs should be about. Besdies, they're not any worse written than your average side quest. In fcat, they are usually better written. *shrug*

[Llyranor]

The problem with Bioware romance characters is that they're completely boring (as opposed to other Bioware characters ROFLTUNASANDWICH) if you decide you're better than them.

[Nick_i_am]

Not that the NWN2 OC romances were even slightly better.

[Kelverin]

Romance in computer games is a good thing and should be encouraged. Hell why not double your customers/$$$$. Just make sure it's done well.

 

 

EDIT: Shouldn't be hard. Have a contest, or "hire" a few English Literature interns. The best candidate wins. The most difficult part would be choosing between all the submissions.

 

sure, 'cause english lit grads know how to write... likes history grads knows how to change history. is only a handful o' noteworthy english bfa and mfa programs we can think of, and the % of gradates from those programs that actually end up publishing anything meaningful is pretty small. an english lit degree is a meaningless footnote on a writer's resume.

 

and bio knows full well that contests is a Huge mistake.

 

bio has hired numerous folks based on submissions o' work based on nwn toolset. is some folks who has shown good level design and programming skills 'nuff that they has been offered jobs. seen any nwn modules include multiple tangential and optional romances? no?

 

 

 

romance must be:

 

optional

 

tangential

 

virtually entirely dialogue (3 lines max per response)

 

no more than 6-8 dialogue encounters.

 

 

...

 

am not sure kel understands just how complex a task it is to write such a romance. to make such a romance that not feels rushed, juvenile, or trite? good luck. bio will continue to include romances, 'cause they is popular. nevertheless, the current implementation makes marked improvements beyond what we has already seen... problematic.

 

HA! Good Fun!

English Literature interns was just an example, closet authors, would be novelists....whoever is hungry and cheap Getting a writing credit might be one hell of a starting point for one's career, and a selling point for any gaming company trying to land a "up and coming" new writer/novelist, Lets be honest a Jane Austen type comes around every how many years?

 

But you have played computer games for a long time and the writing, much less romantic writing has been ...... at best and humorous and pathetic at worst.

 

"romance optional" agree 100%

 

"tangential" What the **** does that mean? (of, relating to, or of the nature of a tangent)

 

"virtually entirely dialog (3 lines max per response)" Disagree, give your fellow gamers a little more credit.

 

"no more than 6-8 dialog encounters." I'll go a step further and say it should be more, don't know how many relationships you have been in, but it take a hell of a lot more work that that. I will add you have to make sure, somehow it's done in an appropriate time. and place. With linear games that should not be hard to accomplish, and no excuse if it is not done correctly.

 

I understand what goes into designing games, dialogs, as much as anyone that has never worked in the industry. Long hours, sacrifice and no rewards, other than a FAT paycheck.

 

Check out the highest NWN2 mod - A romance mod by a female, amateur writer. The audience is there for game developers smart enough to take advantage. Hell anyone that plays computer games, execpt fo MMMOS is playing by there selves and we all want/need lovin you would be stupid not to incorporate it in your games

Edited August 23, 2008 by Kelverin

[Gromnir]

"English Literature interns was just an example, closet authors, would be novelists....whoever is hungry and cheap laughing.gif Getting a writing credit might be one hell of a starting point for one's career, and a selling point for any gaming company trying to land a "up and coming" new writer/novelist, Lets be honest a Jane Austen type comes around every how many years?"

 

clearly you ain't getting the point. no doubt you thinks current bio crpg writers is simply random folks that were discovered working at local gas stations and laundromats? never occurred to the biowarians to hire folks with a writing resume. *snort* the biowarians currently look for folks who can write, but not only is crpg writing vast different than traditional writing, but the folks who is genuine talented writers is unlikely to make crpg writing their 1st choice... or second choice... or third... sure, hold a contest and hire some english lit interns... HA!

 

but of course, even if you get a good crop o' writer talent, the method o' implementing romances in a bio crpg makes "better romances" very difficult.

 

tangent? should be obvious, but a romance that is optional cannot have too great an impact on the critical path story. whatever changes must necessarily be slight.

 

actually, the 3 line bit is giving gamers all the credit they is due. after bg, bio adopted what were described by a developer as a 3-line rule... 'cause gamers started clicking past dialogues that were more than 3 lines. obsidian/bis seems to have followed suit, following the commercial failure o' ps:t.

 

"I'll go a step further and say it should be more, don't know how many relationships you have been in, but it take a hell of a lot more work that that."

 

great... too bad that won't happen under current scheme. again, is limitations 'cause this is a crpg. npc side-quests is limited in scope and the more of em you got, the less involved they is probably gonna be. what is you gonna remove to add considerably more to romances? how you gonna keep tangential? am all for doing more, but...

 

and again, Gromnir is not arguing that romances ain't popular. romances will continue to be popular. bio will continue doing 'em. what folks not seem to get is that the romances will always be relative juvenile, rushed and unfulfilled simply 'cause o' the way they is implemented. biowarians won't be too bothered by that 'cause as much as people like kel complain 'bout current state, biowarians sees that current scheme is popular enough.

 

kel and dr tells bio to do better. HA! hire english interns and hold contests? sure.

 

HA! Good Fun!

[Kelverin]

He he you are something else. More later. Yes Bio/Obs is smarter than poor kelverin (say it right, say it with pleasure). But there writing and design does not show it. Hell hire Gnomir he seems to know it all...?

[Nick_i_am]

The problem is that 'real' romance has very little to do with 'actual' dialogue which makes any 'roleplay' romance seem completely pointless to me. Pick the right options, screen fades to black, hurrah! No amount of good writing can even come close to a real interpersonal relationship, on any level really, and I wouldn't mind if it was a film, or even cutscenes (that is to say, I can buy it if the game isn't trying to pretend that the guy in the game is me), but it's literally just romance boiled down to a 'pick the right option minigame' with zero attention paid to any factors outside of that conversation save for the 'how much she likes you' stat.

 

Better romance for me wouldn't have anything do with better writing as much as better scripting of the whole process. Should I be able to hit on a chick while I have a gaping flesh wound in the middle of a smelly swamp surrounded by dead orks? Should I still be hated by a girl that I just took 3 arrows for while still having time to heal her? Sure you can come up with excuses both ways, but it doesn't matter because the game doesn't even take things like mood and environment into account and pretty much makes the whole thing into an adult edition of 'chose your own adventure' which can be activated at any damn time in which you can talk to the wench.

 

And yeah, I know BG2 had the other party initiate it instead, but I hardly consider that a step up.

 

So romance in CRPGs has everything do with actual romance as 'chose your own adventure' has to do with actual roleplaying and i'll start caring when this stops being the case.

 

Go play a dating game or somthing.