The Mass Effect comparisons must get annoying

[GhostofAnakin]

I did say what I hated, in the same post I said it completely fails as an RPG, you need to read more carefully.

 

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I already explained it in that thread, again you're not paying attention.

 

I'm not going to search through all your posts on Mass Effect, but in this thread, you haven't given a reason for your beliefs. You've made blanket statements, with no actual examples or evidence to back it up.

 

That's like saying "Because I liked it!" What was good about it? If that's considered good, AP better be 10 times better, because honestly ME completely fails as an RPG, is mostly on rails, is shallow and half-baked, and features some extremely amateurish design.

 

That was your quote.

 

You didn't give a single example or proof of those claims, you simply made them and expected everyone else to fill in our own conclusions about why the game made you believe that.

[Cycloneman]

Anyone who can define "RPG" in a way that encompasses the following titles, and excludes others, to my satisfaction will earn, from me, 3 months of time in any MMO they want OR any single game title currently on the market ($60USD max on either).

. . .

I know that this isn't fair since I'm the judge and the one giving the award, but seriously, if you impress me you've got it. If you can't, step off because you don't have any more of a clue than anyone else.

I have not played all those games, but here’s my best shot:

RPG: A game where a "currency" (skill points/experience points or whatever) is used to gradually increase your character or characters' (all the ones you directly control) power/ability in the game.

 

This currency can be used to permanently increase the powers/abilities of individual characters, which includes (but is not limited to) all the characters under your direct control.

 

It is not gained solely by progression through the story.

 

The currency can be used to increase your human/semihuman character’s power (ie a person, robot or alien would count, but not a car or aircraft carrier).

 

If this currency’s specific effects cannot be controlled, it must increase multiple different character abilities.

 

It must also fulfill one of the following two criteria:

• Not be a first person game.

• Not be played primarily as a versus game.

Edited July 21, 2008 by Cycloneman

[Redfield]

To everyone replying to Patrick's challenge: You're missing the point.

 

The whole point is that no one is going to be able to come up with an answer that includes the first list of games and excludes the second. Everyone has a different definition of what defines an RPG at it's core.

 

There is no "right" answer.

Edited July 21, 2008 by Redfield

[Cycloneman]

To everyone replying to Patrick's challenge: You're missing the point.

 

The whole point is that no one is going to be able to come up with an answer that includes the first list of games and excludes the second. Everyone has a different definition of what defines an RPG at it's core.

 

There is no "right" answer.

If we're not supposed to answer it, why'd he offer free stuff?

[Patrick K Mills]

To everyone replying to Patrick's challenge: You're missing the point.

 

This is true, but the offer of free stuff is valid.

 

Cycloneman: In Eve my stats are all combinations of my character's skill level and the equipment/ship chassis you use. "Character" statistics are primarily used for filling pre-requisites to use equipment and many skills have no (or minimal) numerical value in the field.

 

Additionally, in Battlefield 2 I can advance my character by way of points earned in combat, allowing me to buy new weapons, extra health and other tools.

 

I'd also need a more clear definition on why a robot counts as a player character, but a vehicle does not. It seems rather arbitrary, both could be your avatar in the game word.

[Pidesco]

All those games include visible stat growth, I think. So there's your definition. I'm guessing EVE Online's stats are tied to your ship, though.

 

What do I win?

 

So does Warcraft 3 and Gran Truismo. Arguably most of the other games on the list do as well, if you include weapon stats.

 

Are the stats visible in all the other games? Meaning, can you see the numbers for weapon damage in Quake, for example? Also there isn't any RPG-like directional stat growth in most if not all of those not-RPG games.

 

 

Also, I'd like to add this: There has to be a narrative(I'm assuming Gran Turismo doesn't have one). Reegarding Warcraft 3, it is most definitely an RPG, at least the single player part. It was even touted as an RPG/RTS hybrid by Blizzard.

 

 

Edi: Battlefield 2 sounds like an RPG, then. Does it have a narrative?

 

 

 

 

Is Gran Truismo a game that's self evidently awesome?

 

 

@Redfield: I'm not missing the point, I'm just having a go at the challenge. Personally, I think labeling a game in a specific way to establish a personal preference is silly.

[Redfield]

To everyone replying to Patrick's challenge: You're missing the point.

 

The whole point is that no one is going to be able to come up with an answer that includes the first list of games and excludes the second. Everyone has a different definition of what defines an RPG at it's core.

 

There is no "right" answer.

If we're not supposed to answer it, why'd he offer free stuff?

 

Because he's fairly confident that no one is going to meet all of his criteria?

 

While his offer may be completely valid, he'll come up with a way to invalidate any stab at the challenge. He IS trying to prove a point, after all.

[Patrick K Mills]

While his offer may be completely valid, he'll come up with a way to invalidate any stab at the challenge. He IS trying to prove a point, after all.

 

I'm also interested to see if it can be done.

 

Eve has a collaborative narrative.

 

Soul Caliber has visible numbers on weapon upgrades, and does have a narrative.

 

Gran Turismo has a lot of visible numbers.

 

Battlefield 2 has a loose narrative, but it is a strictly multiplayer game.

 

You cannot see your weapon damage numbers in quake, but you can get temporary upgrades to your armor and health that are displayed numerically. It also has a narrative.

 

And I'm totally serious about the reward- I'll even see if I can't get someone else to judge so that it's fair.

[J.E. Sawyer]

My judgment is that Patrick is owning you, possibly even "pwning" you. Condolences. Peace.

[Wrath of Dagon]

Anyway, I believe developers need to see why ME is a badly designed game so they don't repeat the same mistakes.

 

Can you honestly not see that this is your opinion? There's a massive number of people who would beg to differ that Mass Effect is a "badly designed RPG". Most importantly, if Obsidian doens't share your opinion of Mass Effect, you're just pissing into the wind anyhow.

Of course it's my opinion, what else would it be? What amazes me is that people don't see something so obvious.

[Redfield]

Anyway, I believe developers need to see why ME is a badly designed game so they don't repeat the same mistakes.

 

Can you honestly not see that this is your opinion? There's a massive number of people who would beg to differ that Mass Effect is a "badly designed RPG". Most importantly, if Obsidian doens't share your opinion of Mass Effect, you're just pissing into the wind anyhow.

Of course it's my opinion, what else would it be? What amazes me is that people don't see something so obvious.

 

Irony at it's finest.

 

The difference here, is that you're the one touting your opinion as something the developers should listen to. Read how you phrased your above quote. When you state that you're trying to get the developers to "see why ME is a badly designed game", you're effectively trying to force your opinion onto them.

[Wrath of Dagon]

You didn't give a single example or proof of those claims, you simply made them and expected everyone else to fill in our own conclusions about why the game made you believe that.

To avoid endlessly repeating myself, here's my review on Bio forums, towards the bottom of the page: http://masseffect.bioware.com/forums/viewt...=125&sp=285 The fundamental problem as I said is that ME is too linear to offer any meaningful player choice. If you want every single flaw pointed out, you can read the parody in my signature. Amazingly though the author thinks the game is brilliant.

[Hell Kitty]

So basically, when you say "I believe developers need to see why ME is a badly designed game so they don't repeat the same mistakes." what you really mean is "I believe developers need to see what I didn't like about ME so they don't do that in future games."?

 

Because if developers don't share your opinion on what those mistakes are, why would they change them?

[Wrath of Dagon]

[The difference here, is that you're the one touting your opinion as something the developers should listen to. Read how you phrased your above quote. When you state that you're trying to get the developers to "see why ME is a badly designed game", you're effectively trying to force your opinion onto them.

How am I doing that, am I holding a gun to their heads? May be I should throw a hissy fit and threaten not to buy the game unless it's done to my exact specifications, as per usual forum protocol.

[Patrick K Mills]

Of course it's my opinion, what else would it be? What amazes me is that people don't see something so obvious.

 

 

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=aVev83o_Q_4

[Wrath of Dagon]

So basically, when you say "I believe developers need to see why ME is a badly designed game so they don't repeat the same mistakes." what you really mean is "I believe developers need to see what I didn't like about ME so they don't do that in future games."?

 

Because if developers don't share your opinion on what those mistakes are, why would they change them?

Yes, so what?

[Redfield]

So basically, when you say "I believe developers need to see why ME is a badly designed game so they don't repeat the same mistakes." what you really mean is "I believe developers need to see what I didn't like about ME so they don't do that in future games."?

 

Because if developers don't share your opinion on what those mistakes are, why would they change them?

Yes, so what?

 

As I stated earlier, you're pissing into the wind. It's been made pretty clear by those working on Alpha Protocol (at least Patrick) that you're viewpoint on Mass Effect isn't shared with them. Therefore, what are you really trying to prove?

[Hell Kitty]

Yes, so what?

 

So you can't just spout any old crap and expect people to know exactly what it is you are trying to say.

 

If I create a product, and someone points out an error in the product, I'd like to know what it is so I can correct it. If it's not an error, it's just something they don't like, then frankly I'm not likely to care.

[Cycloneman]

This is true, but the offer of free stuff is valid.

 

Cycloneman: In Eve my stats are all combinations of my character's skill level and the equipment/ship chassis you use. "Character" statistics are primarily used for filling pre-requisites to use equipment and many skills have no (or minimal) numerical value in the field.

They still increase your character's power, if only by enabling him to access a greater variety of weapons/abilities (versatility is a power increase).

 

Okay, here, I think I've got it:

RPG: A game where a "currency" (skill points/experience points or whatever) is used to gradually increase your character or characters' (all the ones you directly control) power/ability in the game.

 

This currency can be used to permanently increase the powers/abilities of individual characters, which includes (but is not limited to) all the characters under your direct control.

 

It is not gained solely by progression through the story.

 

The currency can be used to increase your human or anthropomorphized character

[Wrath of Dagon]

Yes, so what?

 

So you can't just spout any old crap and expect people to know exactly what it is you are trying to say.

 

If I create a product, and someone points out an error in the product, I'd like to know what it is so I can correct it. If it's not an error, it's just something they don't like, then frankly I'm not likely to care.

I already pointed out plenty of faults in ME, unless you think the only possible problem in a game is a bug, since that's objective. And I've yet to see anyone explain why the faults I pointed out aren't faults. Edited July 22, 2008 by Wrath of Dagon

[Wrath of Dagon]

As I stated earlier, you're pissing into the wind. It's been made pretty clear by those working on Alpha Protocol (at least Patrick) that you're viewpoint on Mass Effect isn't shared with them. Therefore, what are you really trying to prove?

That those who don't share my viewpoint are wrong.

[Patrick K Mills]

They still increase your character's power, if only by enabling him to access a greater variety of weapons/abilities (versatility is a power increase).

 

Okay, here, I think I've got it:

RPG: A game where a "currency" (skill points/experience points or whatever) is used to gradually increase your character or characters' (all the ones you directly control) power/ability in the game.

 

This currency can be used to permanently increase the powers/abilities of individual characters, which includes (but is not limited to) all the characters under your direct control.

 

It is not gained solely by progression through the story.

 

The currency can be used to increase your human or anthropomorphized character

[Redfield]

And I've yet to see anyone explain why the faults I pointed out aren't faults.

 

Because all of your faults are based ENTIRELY on what you believe an RPG to be. You're bound to disagree with anyone who responds to your ME complaints because their point of view regarding RPGs is bound to be different than yours.

 

Maybe the whole point behind Patrick's challenge was a little to subtle for you?

[random n00b]

That those who don't share my viewpoint are wrong.

Good luck with that.

 

 

All right, this might not be perfect (and I doubt there'd be any large-scale agreement on it) but I'll take it. In other words, it's not the definition of an RPG anyone would accept, but it satisfies the requirements of the challenge. PM me which prize you want.

Heh, looks like Cycloneman outsmarted you, even if he just provided a recollection of the element(s) common to the games that you listed, rather than a meaningful definition of "RPG" (which, given the premises, I would think impossible). Kudos to him.

 

It's cool that you're willing to put your money where your mouth is, though.

[Tigranes]

woo-ee, leave off the pseudo-ad hominems, peasants.

 

I'm sure Cycloneman's definition will pick up some interesting games into its definition (i.e. BG&E maybe?), but looks pretty impressive.

 

Anyway, interesting, isn't it? While I don't necessary agree with WoD (mainly because I have yet to read a full explanation of what he thinks are ME's problems), I think its sort of a logical pitfall when you go down the path of "its just opinion". Of course it is. Opinions make the world go around, and that's a fact (ha-ha!). WoD has every right to express his opinions and try and persuade others, including the developers, of it, as long as he's not obnoxious or inflexible. Kinda hard to tell if he is, since we have yet to get past the meta-debate. But then, it was probably best for him to add the famous IMO to everything he said. I don't know. Maybe I'm just raising my eyebrows at yet another meta-discussion on opinions and RPG definitions.