Between a rock and a hard place...

[@\NightandtheShape/@]

Okay, I have a problem, and when I have a problem such as the one I have currently I find that hearing other peoples opinions allows me to gain extra insight into the problem at hand.

 

So here goes...

 

As some of you may be aware, I've been working towards getting in the games development industry as a programmer for some time now, and recently graduated University.

 

Ever since I've been recieving oppertunities for interviews on a weekly basis and spent my time travelling around speaking to some of the top developers in the UK.

 

Now recently I have been made aware that one of the companies is working towards putting togeather a job offer for me, although the offer itself hasn't been fully ratified. The studio itself wants to hire me but to do so they have to clear it with their HQ, and thusly top managers need to approve me for the creation of a position at the company, the company in question is creating a position specifically for me, or atleast they are hoping to as it stands I don't currently have a formal offer.

 

While this has been occuring I have obviously been presented with other opportunities to attend interviews, a particular company has expressed an interest in me and has offered to fly me out to their base in Norway to continue the interview proceedings face to face.

 

I am expecting to hear from company (A) next week, though I have already confirmed that I shall fly out to Norway and speak with company (B).

 

So the problem is related to what I should do if company (A) makes an offer before I actually speak to company (B), would you consider it unethical to to put off company (A), while I speak to company (B)?

 

And would you deem anything unethical in terms of choice's made afterwards?

Edited July 17, 2008 by @\NightandtheShape/@

[Moatilliatta]

Norway... Funcom?

 

Before I give my opinion on the subject I should tell you that I have no actual experience with stuff like this and it is just my opinion and nothing else.

 

I would say that considering that it is you that is about to get a job that you should be happy with and which can be very demanding I would say that ensuring that you get the best job possible is the top priority ethically. If A doesn't like it then that says more about them than you i.e. that they're afraid that their offer isn't good enough.

 

Also your choice afterwards should be based on where you will be happy and do well and not any secondary concerns about what the other company might think.

 

Good luck with your interviews etc.

[@\NightandtheShape/@]

I won't confirm which companies, what I will say is that both companies are working on AAA projects.

 

The jobs themselves are actualy very different.

 

Company (A) the position is "Core Engine Programming", something I know alot about.

 

Company (B) the position is for "Graphics Programming", something else I am comfortable with.

 

You make some fair points though so thanks for the input .

Edited July 17, 2008 by @\NightandtheShape/@

[Darque]

The only advice I'd have to offer is...

 

....do what's in your best interest.

[Gorgon]

Screwing a company while you are leaving creates a bad impression that may stick, nothing wrong with playing out all your options before you are hired.

[Dragon Lord Jones]

it doesn't hurt to see what company b has to say. just be honest with them and yourself.

 

you don't have to commit to company b, if it comes up just let them know you have another prospect and would like to see what they have to offer.

 

let your credentials speak for you ... if company b wants you, they will wait. that is if you are interested in their offer.

 

 

after all you are talking about a good portion of your life to pursue, and you must do what you feel is right for you.

[taks]

So the problem is related to what I should do if company (A) makes an offer before I actually speak to company (B), would you consider it unethical to to put off company (A), while I speak to company (B)?

 

And would you deem anything unethical in terms of choice's made afterwards?

nope. in fact, let them know you still want to talk with company B before making a decision. they (A) want you, so they'll wait. it's your job to take the best offer, not just money, but best overall deal which includes happiness in your position, and accepting the first thing that comes along (A) may not be the best. company A should understand, and if they don't, well it's not really that grand of a company to work for, is it?

 

i should point out that i have gone through this numerous times throughout my career. i'm on my 4th job as it is and contemplating entering the contract/consult world now. i've also dealt with this from the other side, trying to hire someone.

 

taks

[Gfted1]

I would listen to both offers before deciding. Its not unetical to ask A to wait a week either, if it comes to that.

Edited July 17, 2008 by Gfted1

[Sand]

First off, gauge which one is something you will most certainly enjoy doing. Secondly, keep your options always open, but don't burn any bridges. I have to agree with Gifted1. It isn't so much of a big deal to ask for time to decide something like this. Taks is also right, be upfront and honest when dealing with these folks. Lastly go with your gut in which one you actually think you would want to work with. When in doubt don't, as the saying goes.

[taks]

i actually ran into this exact problem after my last florida company cratered, btw. i interviewed with a company in virginia (not far from quantico, btw) and they had an interesting outfit, though they seemed very... disorganized, and were quick to offer me a job without really delving into my background or knowledge, which had me a little leery. i got the offer, but wanted to wait on the interview with the colorado springs company first. the guy was bummed, but i told him as soon as the opportunity arose in CO that i wanted to wait before making a decision. here i am in CO, btw, though the offer was for less money (the springs is a bit cheaper than anywhere near DC, so less money wasn't an issue).

 

taks

[Sand]

Sound like the right decision there, Taks.

[Guard Dog]

Night I once went to an interview with two other offers in my hand. I ALWAYS ask for at least 24 hours to make a desicion on an offer. I'd ask for more if I had to travel for another interview. Never accept an offer the moment it's tendered. Who knows, if they start to sweat they may offer more. It's never happened to me but I have heard of it.

[taks]

yup... i actually got the offer to come out here from the headhunter at lunch the next day (interviewed on a friday, got the offer at lunch saturday, we flew back to FL on sunday). i accepted and called the virginia company that week sometime and moved 2 weeks later. housing market was rocking at the time and we sold in a few hours.

 

yes, sand. this place is where i was destined to die.

 

taks

[Laozi]

If I were you I'd probably kill myself for starting this thread. Also zombies.

Edited July 17, 2008 by Laozi

[~Di]

Just tell them you are considering several options, and give them a date by which you will make a decision. If they try to pressure you, that says a bit about what it would be like working for them. If they respect you enough to allow you a reasonable amount of time to get back to them, that also says a bit about them. Good information either way when you finally make up your mind.

 

Oh, and tell Norway the same thing should they fast-track an offer to you. Either way, sounds like you are heading up in the world! Congrats!

[Gorth]

Do what you think is best for your long term interests. Thats how I ended up on the other side of the world. I had job and was bored, so I looked abroad. Went to London and did a couple of job interviews and ended up with two job offers on hand. Never made a secret of it, that I was entertaining other offers. The night before accepting one of the offers, I got headhunted to New Zealand. That is, I got job a interview set up the same night (2:30am my time) and accepted that offer instead, dropping both of the first two offers. 5 weeks later I landed in Auckland with my 3 sportsbags

 

Some people prefer to keep it low profile, I always preferred honesty, telling people why I need time to consider all options.

[Walsingham]

Like ~Di said, congrats!

 

Now then:

 

1. You are not betraying any confidences by going to Norway to explore the other option. Always seek to fully understand your options.

 

2. If you think you can say so politely and not seeming like a jerk, then let company A know you're getting solid offers elsewhere. Say that you are extremely interested in them, but in all possible fairnesss you are having to listen to alternatives.

 

3. Try to work with A to understand their difficulties in setting up a position, and demonstrate you want to help resolve any issues. The peopel backing you may be having to overcome a lack of faith in your abilities, for example, or willingness to move house. Address these issues.

 

4. I am no programmer, but a specialist in the mechanics of the game engine is going to get more professional respect than an graphics expert. Lots of people love graphics. I would therefore speculate that career safety is better in mechanics. I.e option A.

 

5. Working in Norway could be fun. It could be good for your career. See if you can convince option B to spice up their offer as a means of getting you. Can they offer you holdiays, training, conference visits?

[@\NightandtheShape/@]

Like ~Di said, congrats!

 

Now then:

 

1. You are not betraying any confidences by going to Norway to explore the other option. Always seek to fully understand your options.

 

2. If you think you can say so politely and not seeming like a jerk, then let company A know you're getting solid offers elsewhere. Say that you are extremely interested in them, but in all possible fairnesss you are having to listen to alternatives.

 

3. Try to work with A to understand their difficulties in setting up a position, and demonstrate you want to help resolve any issues. The peopel backing you may be having to overcome a lack of faith in your abilities, for example, or willingness to move house. Address these issues.

 

4. I am no programmer, but a specialist in the mechanics of the game engine is going to get more professional respect than an graphics expert. Lots of people love graphics. I would therefore speculate that career safety is better in mechanics. I.e option A.

 

5. Working in Norway could be fun. It could be good for your career. See if you can convince option B to spice up their offer as a means of getting you. Can they offer you holdiays, training, conference visits?

 

1. I was slightly concerned about this, company (B) is paying for flights and hotel for 5 days, alot longer than I expected.

 

2. I've already done this.

 

3. The reason for difficulties is that they're making a specific position for me in order to make the offer, that's why it's taking so long, they've already approved the position from a finance point of view.

 

4. Both are elite disiciplines in their own right, but what I would say is that my skills for company (A) are in excess of my graphics programming skills.

 

5. Yup, one of the important things for me would be lessons in Norwegian.

 

[taks]

5 days isn't all that unusual, particularly if you're going to another country. that'll give you time to scope out the area which is key in taking any job (why take the best job in the world if it's in the worst location in the world, for example).

 

taks

[Walsingham]

Which town is it in Norway?. I shall make enquiries.

[@\NightandtheShape/@]

Well you guys seem to have alot more experience with this stuff than myself, well scoping out Oslo should be fun...

[@\NightandtheShape/@]

I'll post a full update when I get back .

Edited July 26, 2008 by @\NightandtheShape/@

[Walsingham]

So it's Oslo?

[@\NightandtheShape/@]

Basically what happend goes a little like this:

 

I flew out to Oslo, and spent a week doing Funcom's tests, more on this in a moment, I got to the funcom office at around 4pm, and just as I'd sat down with the lass from HR I got a phone call confirming that I'd been offered a position at Codemasters new studio in Guildford, as an "Engine Programmer", its a graduate position, and frankly everything about it is exactly how I'd hopped it would be.

 

The strange thing is that I didn't actually sign an NDA at Funcom, so I can probably talk about it in a fairly open manner, but I have no intention of being too graphic as that would be simply unfair, but I will say what I did, and what happend.

 

Monday: I went to the place I was staying at, veg'ed out infront of the computer.

 

Tuesday: Went to the Funcom office and was presented with two tests, one was a C/C++ theory test I did this, and performed average, the other was to implement

into the AoC game engine, I was given a computer, a copy of GPU Gem's 3 detailing the technique and a copy of the AoC rendering engine to work with. The lead rendering programmer was away for two days, I had to complete the task unaided, and without any information past the article in the book. My first reaction was pretty much akin to being throw into boiling lava and told to swim, I panic'd and started reading code, and there was alot of code, 10 hours later I had a kinda clue how things worked.

 

Wednesday: More code reading, and I started to lay out the structure for the technique.

 

Thursday: The technique was working at a prototype level, it had some bugs and errors but the general principle worked.

 

Friday: Completed the technique. It may end up in the game, it may not.

 

I've decided to take the job at Codemasters, despite the fact that I liked being at Funcom, and liked Oslo, and don't have a bad word to say about anyone, I believe that I was only just treading water and wouldn't be able to perform consistantly in that job, so even if Funcom get back to me I won't be taking the job, I particularly feel now that a Junior role is far more suitable.

 

And so, it is with that, that I inform you all, that I should begin work with the guys at Codemasters on the 18th of August, if the paper work goes well. I'll be contributing to an undisclosed AAA title for PC/XBOX 360/PS3, I still don't even have details on the project, that's how secret it is, but they're expecting the IP to make a huge impact.

 

Sadly... It doesn't mean I'll get a Obsidian Dev tag, lol maybe in a few years, maybe never...

Edited July 26, 2008 by @\NightandtheShape/@

[Gorth]

And so, it is with that, that I inform you all, that I should begin work with the guys at Codemasters on the 18th of August, if the paper work goes well. I'll be contributing to an undisclosed AAA title for PC/XBOX 360/PS3, I still don't even have details on the project, that's how secret it is, but they're expecting the IP to make a huge impact.

 

Congratulations man, way to go

 

And don't forget, even if you didn't pursue the job at Funcom any further, it is still part of the overall learning experience. '@\NightandtheShape/@' gained 50xp...