TSL Restoration Project: The Phantom Deadline, READ FIRST POST BEFORE POSTING.

[Darth_Windu]

You will not have to wait that long. If a playable build is not out soon I promise I will have it professionally restored myself. People have waiting long enough.

you're not going to start this crap AGAIN are you? Seriously, just do it or stop whinging.

 

Anyway as for TG's ambitions, the project is designed to fix the game which hasn't been successfully completed yet. Sure it might take a while but since we're never going to see a SP KotOR3, it's the best we have.

[H]

we're never going to see a SP KotOR3

I think we will, after the MMO. OK, maybe not KotOR 3, but an SP Star Wars RPG will definitely happen at one point.

[Theseus]

RPG SP MMO FPS FPS DDR 3PS WTF What the hell is a SP?! haha

[kirottu]

Single Player

[Marcus]

I have the fullest respect for these guys, but I think they are too ambitious for their own good. It seems as if they are trying to fix the game to a degree that is beyond what even a crack developer team would be able to do.

 

The longer it takes, the more interest they're gonna lose, I'm not really keeping track of this anymore, but I will give it shot if it comes out within the next year.. but beyond that? I don't think KOTOR is a timeless masterpiece and I'm sure I'll be more annoyed with the limitations of the engine than awed by the story retold. It's already been 3 years. That's quite a long time and if they take another 3, that's essentially a lifetime in the computer industry.

I agree with you.

 

From my personal perspective, I don't think this mod is worth downloading. Since their alterations caused so many bugs, I have to question the end product's stability. Even though they are working on putting out fires, I think this group is fighting a series of unfixable software issues. If you go in and fix one issue and others pop up from the fix, you have to stop and throw in the towel. I give them great credit for trying to carry onward. Somewhere inside the game's main core are obsticles, which keep causing a series of road blocks. They should have kept things simple. Use simple and quick solutions prevents 'major' problems. Confronting the game's problems at this level is too ambitious.

 

That is way too many bugs (Tracking 1069 known issues). Way too many. I swear they are creating a completely new IP.

 

Tracking 1069 known issues

Severity: Open: Resolved:

Block 0

Crash 0

Major 5

Minor 26

Tweak 2

Text 17

Trivial 10

Feature 11

 

--------------------------------------------------------------------------------

 

Total 60

 

If you are confronting another 60 bugs now, four years after starting, you need to throw in the towel. Four out of the five 'major' bugs should have been fixed years ago.

 

0001072 [Team Gizka] 299TEL major assigned (Dashus) 2008-12-17 Cutscene doesn't trigger when HK-51's are offline

0000994 6 [Team Gizka] 301NAR major feedback (Dashus) 2008-12-02 HK-47/HK-50 Interrogation scene does not load

0000996 2 [Team Gizka] 98TEL major feedback (Dashus) 2008-11-29 Exile replaces HK-47 in Droid Factory

0000997 2 [Team Gizka] 299TEL major assigned (Dashus) 2008-04-11 Cannot complete Droid Factory

Those bugs should have been first year's problems, which the team should have solved long ago.

Edited December 20, 2008 by Marcus

[Darth_Windu]

Well since you're obviously such a modding expert Marcus, why don't YOU do it?

 

Anyway a lot of the bugs that have occurred are actually partially caused by bug fixes for others. In some builds something can work perfectly fine, and in the next it's not working right. These things happen.

[Hassat Hunter]

How many times do we have to tell you most of those 1069 issues are actually TSL ISSUES. You know; the stuff you encounter with 1.0B even without using TSLRP.

 

But I have to agree with you on the too many bugs opinion. Maybe you should complain with LA about that?

[Marcus]

Well since you're obviously such a modding expert Marcus, why don't YOU do it?

 

Anyway a lot of the bugs that have occurred are actually partially caused by bug fixes for others. In some builds something can work perfectly fine, and in the next it's not working right. These things happen.

If you look at my post, you will notice I made a similar statement. There is a domino effect going on. Some of your current bugs were fixed months or years ago, and then your saying the new fixes broke them again. Lets get into a serious conversation here. I'm not going to defend my previous posts due to the fact I was a jerk. I'm going to present to you some supportive criticism. If I'm folllowing the bug fixes correctly, and your own words, fixes created one day are making bugs to fix another day. Several newer fixes made to the game are also rebreaking older bug fixes. In several cases there are fixes that are making even more bugs. Do you see how this sounds? Your fighting an endless cycle of fix and break, which may be due to an unfixable core problem. Its called "Wack-a-Ball". You guys can end up working on this mod for a whole decade. Inorder to fix all these bugs definitively, you would have to break into the core files. Its not Team-Gizka's fault for the domino effect, but this does make another point that others see. Team-Gizka's plan and stretegy for fixing this game is flawed. Everyone supports the team in their own special way, but we are seeing massive older bug issues caused by newer fixes. Its hindering Team-Gizka's ability to reach a conclusion. These things don't happen. Its called bad assessment, planning, and execution.

 

You guys keep saying 'tracking 1069 bugs' is a good thing. Its not anywhere close to a good thing. If your fixes are causing an excessive amount of bugs, this shows that Team-Gizka bit off more than they could chew. They needed another plan years ago, and no one stood up to take charge. Your so called teamleader also takes off in mid production, and he has no one else around to stand in for him. He is not thinking or acting like a leader. No one is driving the boat, and it has lead to bad choices. Every manager has an assitant. Someone who can keep the boat rowing when the manager is not around.

 

Team-Gizka is fighting two problems at once, and its getting their supporters ticked off. Some are even leaving.

Edited December 21, 2008 by Marcus

[Hassat Hunter]

How many times do we have to tell you most of those 1069 issues are actually TSL ISSUES. You know; the stuff you encounter with 1.0B even without using TSLRP.

 

Missed this Marcus?

Also; I think the "resurfaced" HK-Factory bugs that are 're-opened' by new bugfixes are actually never fixed in the first place, but just the result of the HK-Factory having 3 VERY different branches with result in several different bugs in the end of it, and this not being taken fully into account most of the time.

And because a tester tried something different (let's call it Y) which has a huge impact they suddenly found that it doesn't finish the same way like X did. And then there is still Z, which is totally screwed up.

 

Let's take the 4 bugs you mentioned and put them on the painbench, and see how 3 totally identical events can be related to something different (namely X, Y and Z). Having them working properly with 1 of the 3 (previous experience) doesn't mean that they automatically worked with the other 2 paths. Only when the testers can guarantee me that it was working with X, Y AND Z before properly and no longer after a certain build would I be convinced it was broken 'again'.

0001072 Cutscene doesn't trigger when HK-51's are offline

Event that triggers during X fails during Y and Z.

0000994 HK-47/HK-50 Interrogation scene does not load

Doesn't related to the HK factory at all. Has to do with the Exile not properly making place for HK-47.

0000996 Exile replaces HK-47 in Droid Factory

And Vice-Versa. I've had this happen with TSLCR too because a dialogue trigger was unintentionally overwritten by another file. Might be the same thing that happens to 994, btw... but we're steering off.

0000997 Cannot complete Droid Factory

Doesn't mention wheter 'previous' and 'current' paths are either X, Y or Z. From what I can get out of it I think the first game the tester used X, and the issues now faced where because of taking path Z. Which doesn't mean path Z was ever made bugfree and so the issues are 're-appearing'.

 

ANYWAYS, long explenation later... I am more concerned with Dashus closing 1056 The Military door sends you to 220TEL instead of 298TEL for being "Intentional Design". That wouldn't exactly be the kind of design I was expecting from TG (unless he means intentional until the HK-Factory end issues where resolved), but then it would probably still more suitable to use the 298TEL door as exit to 220TEL, but of course that's just my opinion....

[Marcus]

How many times do we have to tell you most of those 1069 issues are actually TSL ISSUES. You know; the stuff you encounter with 1.0B even without using TSLRP.

 

But I have to agree with you on the too many bugs opinion. Maybe you should complain with LA about that?

We can walk this road if you want.

 

Your assumption flaw:

1. Did you work on this game?

2. If you did work on this game, can you tell us for 100% certainty that all of those bugs were in TSL before the restoration project started?

 

3. Did anyone from Team-Gizka work on The Sith Lords with Obsidian?

4. Can anyone from Team-Gizka 100% prove that Obsidian created all 1,069 issues?

 

5. Are there any experienced degreed developers among you who have rock solid proof Obsidian is to blame for every single one of the 1,069 bugs?

 

I want to hear some solid proof. You put it on the table, so where is your proof?

 

Thats why I dismissed your answer.

Edited December 21, 2008 by Marcus

[Marcus]

Well since you're obviously such a modding expert Marcus, why don't YOU do it?

We should take your word because... You have a computer science degree, several years experience in the field, and you helped in the creation of The Sith Lords? I can throw stones like you as well.

 

[sorry for the double post. Can't edit my top post for some reason.]

Edited December 22, 2008 by Marcus

[refuse]

Well since you're obviously such a modding expert Marcus, why don't YOU do it?

I'm sure there are a few modders who would want to help out with the project, but for some reason TG consistently seems reluctant to ask for it or let anyone else help them out.

[Darth_Windu]

Well since you're obviously such a modding expert Marcus, why don't YOU do it?

We should take your word because... You have a computer science degree, several years experience in the field, and you helped in the creation of The Sith Lords? I can throw stones like you as well.

 

[sorry for the double post. Can't edit my top post for some reason.]

The difference here Marcus is that I'm not criticising works that I couldn't possibly re-create, let alone fully understand. That however is what you're doing.

 

You have no idea what TG has done or how they're doing it, yet you seem determined to attack TG's efforts. You've said before that you won't download TG, so I again ask why you are constantly attacking TG - why the TG hate?

 

It's been said time and time again - this mod is being created by TG as a free, fan-based project. It is primarily for the enjoyment of TG, yet they will also allow others to share in the mod as well once it is completed. They want to have this completed before releasing to the public because that's what they want to do, and they've earned that right.

 

So until you show even the smallest hint of being able to mod and actually understand just how vast an undertaking TSLRP is, I'm going to continue to view your ranting as the uninformed drivel that it is.

[Marcus]

After I posted a response to Windu's comments, I went back and thoguht about Team-Gizka's project. Since I do have a level of modding experience, I can understand the difficulties in creating such a project. Team-Gizka took upon itself a massive task, which could have been done within a year's time. Four years after the announcement was made, we are still here talking about bugs in which were not fixed years ago. Or, we are talking about newer bugs breaking older bugs. You do not have to be a scientists to see how backwards their process has become. Team-Gizka has bitten off more than they can chew. It is obvious in their lacking ability to perminatly fix all of the bugs. They seem to be creating more problems than they can handle. 1,000+ bugs were found and created by Team-Gizka's edits alone. Obsidian is a professional company, and I will take their word for it over an ameture group. Downloading this mod is nuts. Team-Gizka's mod will break The Sith Lords.

Edited December 22, 2008 by Marcus

[Darth_Windu]

Obsidian is a professional company, and I will take their word for it over an ameture group. Downloading this mod is nuts. Team-Gizka's mod will break The Sith Lords.

Curious, considering that the only comments made by Obsidian employees regarding TSLRP have all been positive...

 

As for breaking TSL, I'm sure all of the beta testers and those who have played the leaked beta can attest to the fact that it doesn't break TSL at all. Once again, had you not spoken out of ignorance you would have known this.

[Hassat Hunter]

5. Are there any experienced degreed developers among you who have rock solid proof Obsidian is to blame for every single one of the 1,069 bugs?

 

How many times do we have to tell you most of those 1069 issues are actually TSL ISSUES. You know; the stuff you encounter with 1.0B even without using TSLRP.

 

But I have to agree with you on the too many bugs opinion. Maybe you should complain with LA about that?

[poolofpoo]

i can't belive how much progress team gizka has made in only 4 years!

 

this is gonna be the best mod ever i think, i never finished the game coz i heard they were working on this great mod, now my game cd is long gone and i can't remember what the f**k KOTOR2 was all about (something about the force?) but still, it's gonne be great when this mod finally hits the internet

[The Yeti of 66]

i can't belive how much progress team gizka has made in only 4 years!

 

this is gonna be the best mod ever i think, i never finished the game coz i heard they were working on this great mod, now my game cd is long gone and i can't remember what the f**k KOTOR2 was all about (something about the force?) but still, it's gonne be great when this mod finally hits the internet

Um... I'm following the mod with enthusiasm too... but "only" 4 years? You realize the released game was created in half that time right?

[Marcus]

i can't belive how much progress team gizka has made in only 4 years!

 

this is gonna be the best mod ever i think, i never finished the game coz i heard they were working on this great mod, now my game cd is long gone and i can't remember what the f**k KOTOR2 was all about (something about the force?) but still, it's gonne be great when this mod finally hits the internet

Um... I'm following the mod with enthusiasm too... but "only" 4 years? You realize the released game was created in half that time right?

1/4th the time. It only took 12 months to create "The Sith Lords". Its taking Team-Gizka four times as long to make a mod, and they are still going for another year.

Edited December 23, 2008 by Marcus

[Theseus]

i can't belive how much progress team gizka has made in only 4 years!

 

this is gonna be the best mod ever i think, i never finished the game coz i heard they were working on this great mod, now my game cd is long gone and i can't remember what the f**k KOTOR2 was all about (something about the force?) but still, it's gonne be great when this mod finally hits the internet

:lol:

[Darth_Windu]

Um... I'm following the mod with enthusiasm too... but "only" 4 years? You realize the released game was created in half that time right?

...with a full-time professional development team who didn't actually finish the game.

[H]

Um... I'm following the mod with enthusiasm too... but "only" 4 years? You realize the released game was created in half that time right?

...with a full-time professional development team who didn't actually finish the game.

I recall reading an interview with MCA which said that the HK factory would have been finished if Obsidian had had two more days.

[Marcus]

[quote name='H

Edited December 24, 2008 by Marcus

[Hassat Hunter]

Link, H

Edited December 24, 2008 by Hassat Hunter

[The Yeti of 66]

It was longer than two days... If I remember correctly they said if they had another few months they still might not have been able to implement everything that was cut.

 

And you could finish those problems on day one all you wanted Marcus, they popped up later in production. Fixes caused more bugs, but this isn't a neverending cycle like you claim in an earlier post, it happens with the actual game production as well, even with the tools we don't have access to. So give'em a break friend.